I wonder where this might lead...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

B

brakelite

Guest
Great stuff, Brakelite.
But I still hold to the Anti-Christ being an individual, a charismatic and powerful man who will literally do what the prophets tell us. All those organizations will, of course, support him. Also the RCC is clearly identified in Revelation 17 and this man, the Anti-Christ will turn against it, plus all the other religions and destroy them all. People will have to worship him alone, or die.
Here is my take on what its all about:

Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer. [the light bearer]

It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.


God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.

What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.

God may have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world, which does give humans the choice between good and evil.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry. So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land.


Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight. In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.

Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross. He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer by rising to life again.


Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognize the Messiah, but Righteous Israel – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all wicked peoples, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, + and His Christian people will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:10, Revelation 7:9
Well done on the jury angle...agree wholeheartedly. Only from the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a thing be established. Have you read through the thread I started on this very topic...Verdict...guilty?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4Jesus
B

brakelite

Guest
Because the daily sacrifice foretold by malachi 1:11 continues to be celebrated.


2 reasons

1. Faith in the Holy Spirit to guide, guard correct and lead the Church.
2. schemers and plotters , do as the might, cannot stop the Church from praising God and celebrating the Eucharist.



Because what I see and hear is what all the apostolic churches teach (more or less), and what I find taught by the Church throughout its history.
It is this very unchanging 'deposit of faith' that you see preserved in communities with valid bishops and that is quickly diluted and/or changed by those who leave the apostolic communities

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number



The Church is all of us. The good and the bad... I leave it up to the Holy Spirit to preserve her, and to Jesus to purify her, and through, with and in HIM we offer our sacrifice of praise, thanksgiving, and yes our very selves to the Father!

Which is why this:



cannot happen, for the whole life of the Church is centered on Jesus, and from Him her whole life flows. Any imposter or Judas who tried to replace celebration of the Eucharist with adoration of anyone or anything would immediately expose himself and be rejected.




And yet it cannot stop us from continuing to glorify our Lord, Jesus Christ. pretty powerless isn't it. ;)




The Church Jesus said would survive, is the community established by HIM through the apostles, those who faithfully pass on the One Loaf, and the One Cup given to them by Jesus.
One cannot take it, they must receive it, and from the very beginning the authority to preside over it has been reserved to the bishops and those whom they have approved (ordained).
Such has it always been, such shall it always be.

Remember your first love!

You too! are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God.


Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
And you cannot see your church's role in the current movement toward global hegemony? Or is this perhaps something you agree with and see no issue with it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4Jesus
B

brakelite

Guest
Great stuff, Brakelite.
But I still hold to the Anti-Christ being an individual, a charismatic and powerful man who will literally do what the prophets tell us. All those organizations will, of course, support him. Also the RCC is clearly identified in Revelation 17 and this man, the Anti-Christ will turn against it, plus all the other religions and destroy them all. People will have to worship him alone, or die.
Here is my take on what its all about:

Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer. [the light bearer]

It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.


God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.

What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.

God may have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world, which does give humans the choice between good and evil.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry. So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land.


Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight. In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.

Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross. He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer by rising to life again.


Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognize the Messiah, but Righteous Israel – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all wicked peoples, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, + and His Christian people will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:10, Revelation 7:9
You may enjoy this...The Way
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4Jesus

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
You may enjoy this...The Way
I read your article, thanks. I especially agree with this:
'That plan was to restore mankind as law-abiding citizens that once again they may be fit for the role He intended for them, kings and judges and witnesses in the conflict. That my friends is the purpose of the gospel'. Quote Brakelite.

I disagree with you interpretation of the time periods of Daniel and Revelation. However; those historical dates and times may point to the final and accurate fulfilment yet to happen.
Well done on the jury angle...agree wholeheartedly. Only from the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a thing be established. Have you read through the thread I started on this very topic...Verdict...guilty?
I will look again at that thread.
Scripture tells us that we will judge the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:3

But to be worthy of that honor, we must be proved faithful and firm in our trust of God. And how God will do that, is to pass us thru fire. 1 Peter 4:12 We must endure until the end, until Jesus Returns.
Rapture to heaven anyone? Don't those who believe in a 'rapture' realize that theory automatically disqualifies them from being one of God's children? Hebrews 12:7-13
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,275
3,091
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Only from the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a thing be established.

Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople....
3 living witnesses to the Truth of the 'deposit of faith'

Where are your 2000 year old witnesses?

Peace!
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,540
7,581
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jew and Gentile enter the kingdom together, hand in hand. Nothing changed with God's original plane. In Revelation, Israel is portrayed as the Bride of 144,000. The Gentiles are the wedding guests, the large multitude before the throne.

Here's some food for thought.... has it been considered that the 144,000 and the large multitude are one and the same?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4Jesus and bbyrd009

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Here's some food for thought.... has it been considered that the 144,000 and the large multitude are one and the same?
The 144,000 are selected by Jesus, Revelation 14:1-5, OUT OF the vast multitude. Revelation 7:1-9.
Rev 7 is a chapter that entirely describes earthly scenes. Never does it say anyone goes to heaven. Verses 1-14 describe the scene soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide devastation of the Sixth Seal.
Verses 15-17 are about Eternity; after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4Jesus

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I have met spirits. I have spoken to them, and been spoken to. They hate, they threaten, they curse. They also fear, and instill fear in those they can. They seemed pretty emotional to me at the time.
i'm curious how you might know for sure that they did not originate in you? The emo part i agree, not that that makes it any more or less true lol
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,275
3,091
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The 144,000 are selected by Jesus, Revelation 14:1-5, OUT OF the vast multitude.

Hello Keraz,

And I know where we can find 144000 virgins, selected from the multitude, and consecrated to Jesus...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
 
B

brakelite

Guest
i'm curious how you might know for sure that they did not originate in you? The emo part i agree, not that that makes it any more or less true lol
Well, let me tell you about one. I received a phone call from a neighbour friend who lived 'next door' so to speak, but 100 yards down the road. We were the only people within miles of one another, out in the forest. He was having trouble with his wife, and needed help. I went down to see what was up, and he invited me in and my wife and I sat down. His wife then came in and as soon as she saw me she lost complete control of her senses and began to attack me verbally, screaming in her native language. Then she made an effort to physically attack and her husband, muich bigger and stronger than she, had to wrestle her to the floor and it took all his strength to hold her back. All the while she was continuing in her language, clearly threatening and abusing. She totally ignored my wife...her sole focus was on me. Our children attended the same school, and we had all been best of friends for years. There was no personal animosity between us, or any previous issues.
All the time I was praying quietly, and sitting relatively calmly, albeit very concerned and annoyed with myself because I knew I wasn't spiritually on top of things at that time and was tota;lly unprepared for such an event. Anyway, after a certain time, maybe half an hour or so, she calmed down and my friend left the room with her and she went to sleep in the room. He returned and said that although the language she was speaking was one he was fluent in, he said the dialect she was speaking was so ancient, he could only understand a few words, and it wasn't anything she had learned. He believed she had been delving too deep into areas of spiritualism within their native religious system, and had been taken over by spirits of their ancestors. Personally, I no longer believe that possible, but went with that at the time. But it certainly didn't come from within me. The next day she had no idea what had taken place the night before.
I could speak of other times as well, once when alone, but others when my wife was present and when she alerted me to their presence before I realised they were there. So yeah, I'm sure they didn't originate with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009 and 4Jesus

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's some food for thought.... has it been considered that the 144,000 and the large multitude are one and the same?
I doubt that. :)

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i'm curious how you might know for sure that they did not originate in you? The emo part i agree, not that that makes it any more or less true lol
Ha, that may be something everyone needs to sort out for himself.
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,275
3,091
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And you cannot see your church's role in the current movement toward global hegemony? Or is this perhaps something you agree with and see no issue with it?

Well as our good friend @Guiliano said on another thread

"What's to worry about? God is still on His throne. All is well"

Peace!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,540
7,581
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I doubt that. :)

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
What I find interesting is, in verse 4 he hears the number ie, he doesn't see them while in verse 9 he sees a multitude, one that was not numerable. Considering this context I think it's reasonable to conclude they are the same people. 12 x 12, 000 representing the complete number of those saved from all the families of the earth. bbryrd mentioned it a few posts back. #670

I also think it is in error to conclude that Israel as in the nation past or present will be a seperate group.
God is into saving Adams seed (humanity). National Israel were privileged to know the real God but they threw him out time and time again. They violated their special status to the point of it being given to others ie, those who value the privilege (believers)

As an example...Israel through history was given the ascendency and abused it so it was given to the Babylonians and Israel became servants to teach them a lesson. It happened several times and the lesson was not learnt. It was taken from them permanently as a nation when they murdered their Lord and given to others. Jesus tells stories to this end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What I find interesting is, in verse 4 he hears the number ie, he doesn't see them while in verse 9 he sees a multitude, one that was not numerable. Considering this context I think it's reasonable to conclude they are the same people. 12 x 12, 000 representing the complete number of those saved from all the families of the earth. bbryrd mentioned it a few posts back. #670

I also think it is in error to conclude that Israel as in the nation past or present will be a seperate group.
God is into saving Adams seed (humanity). National Israel were privileged to know the real God but they threw him out time and time again. They violated their special status to the point of it being given to others ie, those who value the privilege (believers)

As an example...Israel through history was given the ascendency and abused it so it was given to the Babylonians and Israel became servants to teach them a lesson. It happened several times and the lesson was not learnt. It was taken from them permanently as a nation when they murdered their Lord and given to others. Jesus tells stories to this end.
Why do you say that? Jews did not kill Jesus. Romans did. It ties in with our theme of how false religion and government conspire with each other at times. When religion depends on government to do its bidding, I think the results are almost always bad.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Stephen, under the inspiration of the holy Spirit, laid the blame for Jesus death firmly and squarely upon the shoulders of the ruling party of saducees and Pharisees .
Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
The Romans, even Pilate, would have had no interest in crucifying another religious leader unless the Jews brought it to their attention. The Jews had no authority to execute anyone, so needed Pilate to sanction their farce, and I suggest the only reason Pilate went along with it was because he was afraid of any negative report getting back to Caesar about him allowing someone to live who claimed to be a king without the approval of Rome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reggie Belafonte