Religious but lost:

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H. Richard

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I have made the statement "Satan wants to make us religious but lost" and I now want to expand this idea.

It is a fact that some of the "Christian Jews" wanted the Gentile Christians to become Jewish by doing the things that the Jews did ""under the law."" This was the big problem that was discussed in Acts 13:1-2, Acts 15:1-20. It was an attempt to get Christians back under the law, which by the way, no one could keep. It was the subject of Acts 21:20-21 as well.

But that did not end the attempts of the Judaizers from continuing their assault on the Gentile believers. Most all of Paul's writings are in response to those that would add the Jewish law requirements to his gospel of the grace of God. Galatians 3:1-10 is just one example.

I want to tell you three reasons why I want to post this article.

My wife, and I, went on a cruise tour to Alaska in June this year. She and I like to visit historical sites. In Juneau we found an old "Russian Orthodox Church" and there was a person there that gave us a tour of the building. Towards the back of the room there was a partition that went from one side of the room to the other. In the middle of this partition was an arched doorway with a red curtain in it, (think veil of the Temple Matthew 27:51). It was explained that only the Priest could go behind that veil. It was also said that the Priest must offer up incense before the podium that stood before the curtain.

In July of this same year my wife and I attended a wedding in an "Eastern Orthodox Church." The inside of the church was the same as the "Russian Orthodox Church" and they had the same functions. During the wedding ceremony the Priest went behind the curtain and took a pot of incense with small decorative ropes and brought it out from behind the partition. This incense was swung around the podium. The Priest asked each of the bride and groom the same question "three time" and after each answer he would lead the couple around the podium swinging the incense and chanting in a monotone voice. The explanation was that the ceremony had to reference each member of the trinity.

Thinking about these things I realized that the RCC uses incense around the podium too and have other rituals and ceremonies that they say a person has to do to be saved and to be kept saved.

It seems to me that the Judaizers started the three churches listed above and that many of these same things are found in protestant churches. Have we begun in the spirit and fallen back into a form of Judaism? Did the JUDAIZERS win a place in history? Can anyone tell me that they are no longer with us?

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in his work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God.

Think about it.
 

H. Richard

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Religions, what are they?

All though history there have been people that have wanted to be "spiritual" leaders, priests and shaman that were looked up to as being nearer to God. So called "Holy men" who have gained power over others through a, supposed, higher relationship to God.

Most of mankind has always known that a god existed. Some of these people created a god, or gods, of their imagination. They told others what this god wanted them to do in order to please him and started convincing others that they must listen to them, and do as they say, or be dammed. This gave these people their power over others. It is the same spirit that had Jesus crucified, Stephen stoned to death, and the killing of many other Children of God. The religious mindset is the reason the inquisitions were instituted and for the persecution of the Anabaptists.

When the RCC withholds communion it is intimidation. Since the RCC teaches that a person must take communion in order to be saved, the church, withholding communion is tantamount to saying the person will lose his salvation. This is intimidation plain and simply.

Intimidation is not new in religions. It is how the RCC gained vast wealth in land and money during the Middle Ages. All the Christian kings during that time had to pay tribute to the RCC because of the threat of being cast out of the RCC and go to hell.

In many protestant churches, today, they use Mal. 3:8 to persuade people to give money to the church organization even when they know that the requirement of giving to the Temple was under the Law and is not under grace.

When people of religion teach others that they must do as they say or go to hell they are taking the place of God and use intimidation to get their converts. The more rules they can come up with the greater the ability to intimidate others.

There is only one thing that Jesus wanted us to do as far as a ritual/ceremony is concerned, the Lord's Supper MEMORIAL, and nowhere did He say it would determine our place in heaven. Nowhere did He say it had to be performed by a clergy.

The Church has become a living organism built by men and separate from the Children of God. -- According to Paul, the Children of God ARE the Church. -- However, in this world the Children of God have been replaced by, and are supposed to be sub-servant to, this living organism created and ran by men.

The gospel of grace as taught by Paul is very simple. To those that would say it isn't then I direct you to Paul in 2 Cor 11:3. Paul said it was simple.

According to Paul, all those that place their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross are made Children of God, by God.

Eph 1:12-14 -- (NKJ)
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rom 10:17 __ (NKJ)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gal 3:1-3 -- (NKJ)
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

It is only when the Holy Spirit opens your heart that He (the Holy Spirit) will baptize you and make you a Child of God.

But most men love their religion more than God. The death of Jesus, the Son of God, is proof that they do.

I Jn 5:4-5 --- (NKJ)
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I believe (have faith) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I believe (have faith) He died on the cross so that I can be a Child of God, through Him. There is nothing else on the face of this earth that I place my faith in. I have overcome the world through Him. I do not need man's religions. I only need HIM!

Now to those that say I have created my own religion you are mistaken. I did not create Jesus Christ, nor do I believe having faith in what Jesus Christ (God) did on the cross is a religion.

Copyright 1998, by H. Richard
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.
True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in his work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God.

Think about it.

Having thought about it I have come to at least 2 conclusions:

1) keeping the OT law will not save yet keeping Christ's NT law will save and Christ's NT law does not require burning incense.

2) God 'before ordained' that those who are Christians walk in good works, Ephesians 2:10. So for the Christian, doing good works is not an option, not a want nor a personal desire but a Divine necessary requirement and those Christians that do not continue in good works will be cut off and thrown into the fire for being unfruitful, John 15. The Christian is doing either good, fruitful works (leads to salvation) or unfruitful works (leads to condemnation) Ephesians 5:11; Titus 3:14; 2 Peter 1:8, there is no middle ground. Since God requires Christians to "maintain good works" in order to not be unfruitful, then good works cannot earn God's free gift of salvation but good works are a necessary condition the Christian must maintain in order to receive the free gift of salvation.
 

justbyfaith

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Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

True liberty means being set free from sin.

In many protestant churches, today, they use Mal. 3:8 to persuade people to give money to the church organization even when they know that the requirement of giving to the Temple was under the Law and is not under grace.

Mal 3:8, Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9, Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, eventhis whole nation.
Mal 3:10, Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


I see the tithing principle not as a legalistic requirement but more as a conditional promise.

The law and the prophets are the penners of holy scripture which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16; and therefore we must consider that we might be robbing the Lord if we don't bring the whole tithe into the storehouse. The good news is that if we are obedient, he will pour out a blessing that we don't have the room to receive.


yet keeping Christ's NT law will save

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


I would say that when these verses speak of "the law" they do not exclude the law of Christ.

but good works are a necessary condition the Christian must maintain in order to receive the free gift of salvation.

If we maintain our salvation by works, then we are saved by works to a certain extent. However, Ephesians 2:8-9 refutes such an idea. As does Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:5-6, and Romans 11:5-6.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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The works that a Christian does is not due to there own merit but too Christ in them, so it's of the Holy Spirit only working in them as to why they act on such a thing because they are compelled to do so, it's got noting to do with money, but Christian Charity working in them. it's not charity in the sense that most people think of charity, but all due to the Charity of Grace working through the Holy Spirit only.
If you do works, that is called your works ? that does not cut it with God. fact is that there is a huge difference with such a topic, like socialism is a mans works doctrine and it's not due to Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit or God the Father that's for sure, as it's just like a dog chasing it's tail.

One will say look what it did and the other will say look what God did and not accept that it was them self's who get the glory for such at all, as all the glory goes to God.

I believe that all people are religious regardless of that they may claim, even Communism is a Religion and as such they demand you follow there god and worship there idols or they will hound you down and kill you if they want. such is the same with the Jewish religion because all are under the Law and there is no Grace with such religions, but with Jesus Christ it's not a Religion, he is saying to come out from them, you must be born again of the Holy Spirit and then you will know what Grace truly is and who Jesus Christ truly is, because as such one knows him and you become one with him, a Servant of God and that means you are an Israel. so then you are his and no one can pluck such a one out of his hand. you are married to his Salvation and God is with us = Emmanuel. because he is our God, as no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son.

A truly born again person does not look up to any Priest as some do and worship him because he holds a position. it has always got on my goat that someone looks to Father X as if he is there idolised Saint and if there own child came to them and said that this priest molester them they would reject such outright and not to mention that may Priest knew that X was a molester but what did they do ? that's a Grave Sin and what about the Priest that had children and dismissed them, well that's a Grave Sin that God will not forgive of such. not to mention that such a man is in the Church as a Priest:confused:o_O:rolleyes::eek:.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


I would say that when these verses speak of "the law" they do not exclude the law of Christ.

Gal 2:16 and Gal 3:10 are talking about works of the OT law that do not save for that OT law required strict, perfect law keeping to be justified. Yet obedience to Christ NT law does save it requires a simple faithful obedience to be justified.


justbyfaith said:
If we maintain our salvation by works, then we are saved by works to a certain extent. However, Ephesians 2:8-9 refutes such an idea. As does Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:5-6, and Romans 11:5-6.

God requires the Christian to do good works (Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:14) therefore the Christian must be obedient in doing good works. Salvation is dependent upon on obedience to God's will. The Bible does not contradict itself therefore no verse you cite above contradicts Eph 2:10 that requires the Christian to walk in good works else but cut off and cast into the first for being unfruitful.
Therefore logically Ephesians 2:9 does not eliminate ALL works of all kinds from salvation for if it did it would contradict the very next verse, verse 10 where God requires the Christian to walk in good works.

Luther's faith onlyism creates numerous contradiction among Bible verses.
 

BreadOfLife

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Religions, what are they?

All though history there have been people that have wanted to be "spiritual" leaders, priests and shaman that were looked up to as being nearer to God. So called "Holy men" who have gained power over others through a, supposed, higher relationship to God.

Most of mankind has always known that a god existed. Some of these people created a god, or gods, of their imagination. They told others what this god wanted them to do in order to please him and started convincing others that they must listen to them, and do as they say, or be dammed. This gave these people their power over others. It is the same spirit that had Jesus crucified, Stephen stoned to death, and the killing of many other Children of God. The religious mindset is the reason the inquisitions were instituted and for the persecution of the Anabaptists.

When the RCC withholds communion it is intimidation. Since the RCC teaches that a person must take communion in order to be saved, the church, withholding communion is tantamount to saying the person will lose his salvation. This is intimidation plain and simply.

Intimidation is not new in religions. It is how the RCC gained vast wealth in land and money during the Middle Ages. All the Christian kings during that time had to pay tribute to the RCC because of the threat of being cast out of the RCC and go to hell.

In many protestant churches, today, they use Mal. 3:8 to persuade people to give money to the church organization even when they know that the requirement of giving to the Temple was under the Law and is not under grace.

When people of religion teach others that they must do as they say or go to hell they are taking the place of God and use intimidation to get their converts. The more rules they can come up with the greater the ability to intimidate others.

There is only one thing that Jesus wanted us to do as far as a ritual/ceremony is concerned, the Lord's Supper MEMORIAL, and nowhere did He say it would determine our place in heaven. Nowhere did He say it had to be performed by a clergy.

The Church has become a living organism built by men and separate from the Children of God. -- According to Paul, the Children of God ARE the Church. -- However, in this world the Children of God have been replaced by, and are supposed to be sub-servant to, this living organism created and ran by men.

The gospel of grace as taught by Paul is very simple. To those that would say it isn't then I direct you to Paul in 2 Cor 11:3. Paul said it was simple.

According to Paul, all those that place their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross are made Children of God, by God.

Eph 1:12-14 -- (NKJ)
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rom 10:17 __ (NKJ)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gal 3:1-3 -- (NKJ)
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

It is only when the Holy Spirit opens your heart that He (the Holy Spirit) will baptize you and make you a Child of God.

But most men love their religion more than God. The death of Jesus, the Son of God, is proof that they do.

I Jn 5:4-5 --- (NKJ)
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I believe (have faith) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I believe (have faith) He died on the cross so that I can be a Child of God, through Him. There is nothing else on the face of this earth that I place my faith in. I have overcome the world through Him. I do not need man's religions. I only need HIM!

Now to those that say I have created my own religion you are mistaken. I did not create Jesus Christ, nor do I believe having faith in what Jesus Christ (God) did on the cross is a religion.

Copyright 1998, by H. Richard
Your claim that withholding the Eucharist is “intimidation” shows a pretty glaring ignorance of Scriptural discipline.

Christ not only advocated for disciplining wayward sheep – but for excommunicating them:

Matt. 18:15-18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[f] in heaven.



Paul also admonished his congregations to excommunicate unruly members of the Body:

1 Cor. 5:3-5
As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

A discipline is just that – a disciplineNOT a curse.

The ultimate goal is to bring the person BACK to the fold. The hope of the Church is that they learn from this and mend their relationship with God and His Church.

YOUR charge that this is simply “intimidation” is a Scripturally-bankrupt view . . .
 
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justbyfaith

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Yet obedience to Christ NT law does save it requires a simple faithful obedience to be justified.

If that is the case, then salvation is by works; and Ephesians 2:8-9 refutes such an idea.

God requires the Christian to do good works (Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:14)

Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 3:14 do not set forth works as a requirement. Rather, they declare that good works are the normal outworking of a living faith...they are the fruit of being saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. When a branch abides in the vine (through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone), it has access to the sap of the vine, which is the nourishment that it can draw upon so that it will produce good fruit. We do not abide in the vine through the bearing of good fruit; rather we bear good fruit as the result of the fact that we are connected to the vine as branches; and this connection is by faith and faith alone.

Salvation is dependent upon on obedience to God's will.

No; salvation is dependent upon faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Ye must be born again and also abide in Christ through faith in Him. Obedience will result out of this; but the obedience does not save in any manner; rather, a man is saved through the faith that makes him into a new creature in Christ so that obedience will result.

I believe that you are trying to make a case for being saved by works apart from faith in Jesus Christ. If works save to any degree, then faith in Jesus isn't needed (Galatians 2:21).

Therefore logically Ephesians 2:9 does not eliminate ALL works of all kinds from salvation for if it did it would contradict the very next verse, verse 10 where God requires the Christian to walk in good works.

What you need to do is re-interpret Ephesians 2:10 rather than denying the plain message of Ephesians 2:9; which is clear in saying that salvation is not of works. Ephesians 2:10 says that we will walk in good works because we have been saved by grace through faith; and I will add a comparison to 2 Corinthians 5:17...being saved by grace through faith, I am made into a new creature in Christ; which means when I encounter the opportunity to do a good work, I will not fail to do it; because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5) through faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14).
 
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justbyfaith

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Your claim that withholding the Eucharist is “intimidation” shows a pretty glaring ignorance of Scriptural discipline.

Christ not only advocated for disciplining wayward sheep – but for excommunicating them:

Matt. 18:15-18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[f] in heaven.



Paul also admonished his congregations to excommunicate unruly members of the Body:

1 Cor. 5:3-5
As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

A discipline is just that – a disciplineNOT a curse.

The ultimate goal is to bring the person BACK to the fold. The hope of the Church is that they learn from this and mend their relationship with God and His Church.

YOUR charge that this is simply “intimidation” is a Scripturally-bankrupt view . . .
Such things can indeed be abused if those who are in charge have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
 

DoveSpirit05

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Religions, what are they?

All though history there have been people that have wanted to be "spiritual" leaders, priests and shaman that were looked up to as being nearer to God. So called "Holy men" who have gained power over others through a, supposed, higher relationship to God.

Most of mankind has always known that a god existed. Some of these people created a god, or gods, of their imagination. They told others what this god wanted them to do in order to please him and started convincing others that they must listen to them, and do as they say, or be dammed. This gave these people their power over others. It is the same spirit that had Jesus crucified, Stephen stoned to death, and the killing of many other Children of God. The religious mindset is the reason the inquisitions were instituted and for the persecution of the Anabaptists.

When the RCC withholds communion it is intimidation. Since the RCC teaches that a person must take communion in order to be saved, the church, withholding communion is tantamount to saying the person will lose his salvation. This is intimidation plain and simply.

Intimidation is not new in religions. It is how the RCC gained vast wealth in land and money during the Middle Ages. All the Christian kings during that time had to pay tribute to the RCC because of the threat of being cast out of the RCC and go to hell.

In many protestant churches, today, they use Mal. 3:8 to persuade people to give money to the church organization even when they know that the requirement of giving to the Temple was under the Law and is not under grace.

When people of religion teach others that they must do as they say or go to hell they are taking the place of God and use intimidation to get their converts. The more rules they can come up with the greater the ability to intimidate others.

There is only one thing that Jesus wanted us to do as far as a ritual/ceremony is concerned, the Lord's Supper MEMORIAL, and nowhere did He say it would determine our place in heaven. Nowhere did He say it had to be performed by a clergy.

The Church has become a living organism built by men and separate from the Children of God. -- According to Paul, the Children of God ARE the Church. -- However, in this world the Children of God have been replaced by, and are supposed to be sub-servant to, this living organism created and ran by men.

The gospel of grace as taught by Paul is very simple. To those that would say it isn't then I direct you to Paul in 2 Cor 11:3. Paul said it was simple.

According to Paul, all those that place their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross are made Children of God, by God.

Eph 1:12-14 -- (NKJ)
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rom 10:17 __ (NKJ)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gal 3:1-3 -- (NKJ)
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

It is only when the Holy Spirit opens your heart that He (the Holy Spirit) will baptize you and make you a Child of God.

But most men love their religion more than God. The death of Jesus, the Son of God, is proof that they do.

I Jn 5:4-5 --- (NKJ)
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I believe (have faith) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I believe (have faith) He died on the cross so that I can be a Child of God, through Him. There is nothing else on the face of this earth that I place my faith in. I have overcome the world through Him. I do not need man's religions. I only need HIM!

Now to those that say I have created my own religion you are mistaken. I did not create Jesus Christ, nor do I believe having faith in what Jesus Christ (God) did on the cross is a religion.

Copyright 1998, by H. Richard

can u post this in the catholic threads 4 all them 2 see!! and well said.
 

DoveSpirit05

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don't worry people, I think we're all in agreement about dis one sept 4 the "Bread of life guy" dis is wat Catholicism does to 2 people!!
 

BreadOfLife

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Such things can indeed be abused if those who are in charge have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
And WHOSE job is it to judge a person's soul by stating that they haven't been regenerated by the Spirit? Yours?

Last
time I checked - Scripture said that only GOD knows the heart (Psa. 139:2, Rom. 2:1-11).
We can only judge a person's actions.
 

BreadOfLife

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don't worry people, I think we're all in agreement about dis one sept 4 the "Bread of life guy" dis is wat Catholicism does to 2 people!!
If you're all in "agreement" - then you all wrong according to Scripture.

Sorry - I didn't write the Bible. I just abide by it . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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If that is the case, then salvation is by works; and Ephesians 2:8-9 refutes such an idea.

Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 3:14 do not set forth works as a requirement. Rather, they declare that good works are the normal outworking of a living faith...they are the fruit of being saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. When a branch abides in the vine (through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone), it has access to the sap of the vine, which is the nourishment that it can draw upon so that it will produce good fruit. We do not abide in the vine through the bearing of good fruit; rather we bear good fruit as the result of the fact that we are connected to the vine as branches; and this connection is by faith and faith alone.

No; salvation is dependent upon faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Ye must be born again and also abide in Christ through faith in Him. Obedience will result out of this; but the obedience does not save in any manner; rather, a man is saved through the faith that makes him into a new creature in Christ so that obedience will result.

I believe that you are trying to make a case for being saved by works apart from faith in Jesus Christ. If works save to any degree, then faith in Jesus isn't needed (Galatians 2:21).

What you need to do is re-interpret Ephesians 2:10 rather than denying the plain message of Ephesians 2:9; which is clear in saying that salvation is not of works. Ephesians 2:10 says that we will walk in good works because we have been saved by grace through faith; and I will add a comparison to 2 Corinthians 5:17...being saved by grace through faith, I am made into a new creature in Christ; which means when I encounter the opportunity to do a good work, I will not fail to do it; because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5) through faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14).
No - what YOU espouse is an unbiblical view called "Easy-Beilevism".
We are tole repeatedly in Scripture that we must have enduring faith - and that faith is NOT a faith of simple belief.

This is why Luther despised the Epistle of James - referring to it as the "Epistle of Straw" because of its insistence that our faith must be a faith of ACTION - or it is not faith at all. It contradicted Luther's newly invented doctrine of Sola Fide (Faith Alone).

In James 2:14-26, James states and reiterates the necessity of our cooperation with God's grace. He even goes so far as to condemn this "easy-believism" that some of his readers were espousing:
James 2:18-19
Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE that and tremble.

So - if a believing faith is all you have - you're NO better off than the demons.

In Gal. 2:16, in which Paul states that, “a man is not justified by WORKS OF THE LAW but through faith in Jesus Christ.”
Paul is writing to GENTILES, showing they don't have to live like Jews in order to be saved. They are not bound by works of the LAW (Mosaic Law). HOWEVER - Paul makes a case for a faith of ACTION - and NOT a faith of easy-believism:
Rom. 1:5-6

Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE.


In Matt. 31-46, Jesus said that the reward of one who were faithful in LOVE ones is eternal joy in heaven. Those who weren't faithful in love were banished to eternal suffering.

In 1 Cor. 13:1-3, Paul states that without LOVENOTHING matters. He doesn’t make that statement about faith. WHY is that?? Because Faith and Love must go HAND-IN-HAND. He says that even if he has the gift of Prophecy or helps the poor or speak in tongues – or has FAITH that can move mountains – but does not have love – HE GAINS NOTHING.

In 1 Cor. 13:13 - Paul lays out the GREATEST virtues that we must possess: Faith, Hope and Love.
He goes on to say that LOVE is the greatest and NOT Faith.

"Faith Alone" is ONLY valid if you are talking about a faith that cooperates with God's grace . . .
 

justbyfaith

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And WHOSE job is it to judge a person's soul by stating that they haven't been regenerated by the Spirit? Yours?

Last
time I checked - Scripture said that only GOD knows the heart (Psa. 139:2, Rom. 2:1-11).
We can only judge a person's actions.

Is it your authority to say that every Catholic Priest is regenerated by the Spirit? yet they claim the authority to excommunicate and/or exclude people from the communion table even though they may indeed be abusing their office; being without regeneration.

The question is not whether I have the authority to judge a person's soul; but whether you believe that every Catholic Priest is absolutely saved. Personally I think that it is not the case; since there are abuses that occur in the Catholic Church concerning this.

and that faith is NOT a faith of simple belief.

It is indeed a faith of simple belief; through which we are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Upon simple faith in what Christ has done for us (see Galatians 3:14) we receive the Spirit; and through the Spirit the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

Thus good works stemming out of love will be the result of our salvation; but regeneration itself is by faith alone; not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

Through faith we receive Christ, who is even the love of God; and this love works itself out in obedience to Jesus' commandments.

But if I give $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000, that is not going to effect the work of the Holy Spirit within me that we call regeneration; for this occurs by faith alone.

No amount of works is going to earn the new birth for me in my heart. It is something that God does.

Jesus did indeed say, Ye must be born again.

If this happens in us through works, then a bunch of scripture is invalid.

I think you should meditate on the following scriptures:

Romans 4:1-8

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)

Titus 3:4-7.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Is it your authority to say that every Catholic Priest is regenerated by the Spirit? yet they claim the authority to excommunicate and/or exclude people from the communion table even though they may indeed be abusing their office; being without regeneration.

The question is not whether I have the authority to judge a person's soul; but whether you believe that every Catholic Priest is absolutely saved. Personally I think that it is not the case; since there are abuses that occur in the Catholic Church concerning this.



It is indeed a faith of simple belief; through which we are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Upon simple faith in what Christ has done for us (see Galatians 3:14) we receive the Spirit; and through the Spirit the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

Thus good works stemming out of love will be the result of our salvation; but regeneration itself is by faith alone; not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

Through faith we receive Christ, who is even the love of God; and this love works itself out in obedience to Jesus' commandments.

But if I give $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000, that is not going to effect the work of the Holy Spirit within me that we call regeneration; for this occurs by faith alone.

No amount of works is going to earn the new birth for me in my heart. It is something that God does.

Jesus did indeed say, Ye must be born again.

If this happens in us through works, then a bunch of scripture is invalid.

I think you should meditate on the following scriptures:

Romans 4:1-8

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)

Titus 3:4-7.
First of all - whether a priest is "saved" or "truly regenerated" is not the issue.
It is an issue of AUTHORITY. Christ gave His Church and its leaders the AUTHORITY to excommunicate (Matt. 18:15-18) - and Paul reiterated this (1 Cor. 5:5).
Guess who was sitting there receiving this authority along with the rest in Matt. 18?? JUDAS.

God deals with bad leaders in His OWN way. It's not for YOU to strip them of their Authority . . .

As for the 16th century man made invention of Sole Fide - the Bible is CLEAR that salvation is a processnot a one-time slam dunk event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Just as St. Paul tells us – we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12), and have a hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

He also tells us in Rom. 8:24-25:
To hope is the way we are saved. But if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen? So we hope for what we do not see and we will receive it through patient, enduring faithfulness.”

Works are more than "proof" of our faith. As James explains - they are an essential ELEMENT of faith (James 2:14-26).
TRUE Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works).
 

justbyfaith

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It is an issue of AUTHORITY. Christ gave His Church and its leaders the AUTHORITY to excommunicate (Matt. 18:15-18) - and Paul reiterated this (1 Cor. 5:5).

If a person is not regenerated, they are not a part of His true church.

Guess who was sitting there receiving this authority along with the rest in Matt. 18?? JUDAS.

I'm afraid that you are going to have to make your case more clear to me as concerning Judas receiving authority to excommunicate or withhold communion from people.

As for the 16th century man made invention of Sole Fide - the Bible is CLEAR that salvation is a processnot a one-time slam dunk event.

1Co 6:11, And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

However, we pass from death to life at the moment of true faith in the One who sent the Lord:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Works are more than "proof" of our faith. As James explains - they are an essential ELEMENT of faith (James 2:14-26).
TRUE Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works).

If that is the case, I find a discrepancy within Ephesians 2:8-9:

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is not of works; but it is by grace through faith. How then can faith include the works that we do?

Now I will say that a living faith will normally be accompanied by works.

However, faith does not include within it works as a saving factor; for in the scripture above, salvation is not of works; but it is by grace through faith. Therefore when it comes to what saves, faith and works are mutually exclusive; and this is also testified to in the following scripture:

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Here, grace is not of works and works is not of grace, as pertains to election/salvation. And we are saved by grace through faith; so faith, by which we gain access into grace (Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9), is not going to include works within it, as pertaining to its power to save us.
 
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BreadOfLife

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If a person is not regenerated, they are not a part of His true church.

I'm afraid that you are going to have to make your case more clear to me as concerning Judas receiving authority to excommunicate or withhold communion from people.

1Co 6:11, And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

However, we pass from death to life at the moment of true faith in the One who sent the Lord:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


If that is the case, I find a discrepancy within Ephesians 2:8-9:

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is not of works; but it is by grace through faith. How then can faith include the works that we do?

Now I will say that a living faith will normally be accompanied by works.

However, faith does not include within it works as a saving factor; for in the scripture above, salvation is not of works; but it is by grace through faith. Therefore when it comes to what saves, faith and works are mutually exclusive; and this is also testified to in the following scripture:

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Here, grace is not of works and works is not of grace, as pertains to election/salvation. And we are saved by grace through faith; so faith, by which we gain access into grace (Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9), is not going to include works within it, as pertaining to its power to save us.
Let's start from the top down . . .

A person can be born again, regenerated - then LOSE his secure position. The Bible warns us over and over that this can happen
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
Unfortunately, YOU seem to have fallen for the false Protestant invention of "OSAS" - Once Saved Always Saved.

We are warned in Scripture that ravenous wolves will arise from our own numbers - and to beware of them (Matt. 7:15, Acts 20:29).
As I explained to you before - Judas was one of those to whom Jesus gave the Authority to excommunicate in Matt. 18:15-18.
NOT sure why you need this to be explained again.

As to 1 Cor. 6:11 - I'm not sure why you posted this as some sort of "proof text" for Sola Fide. It doesn't support this false doctrine at ALL.
As to John 3:24 & Eph. 1:13, those are wonderful verses - for those who understand them.

You keep cherry-picking verses here and there without taking ALL of the verses in their proper CONTEXT. One verse of Scripture cannot refute another or it is ALL a lie. When you have verses that say we are saved by our "belief" - what is that really saying??
Let's see what the Bible says about "Believing" in Christ:

"Believing" in Christ means . . .
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).


As I showed you earlier - faith is ACTION - not just mental assent because is is motivated by love (1 Cor. 13:1-3). Even the DEMONS believe in Christ (James 2:19) - but they don't have a faith of action because they don't have love.

Finally - Catholics agree that salvation is not of works that any man should boast (Eph. 2:9). Not of OUR works, at least.
HOWEVER - this verse is talking about works of the LAW (Mosaic Law). For Christians, GOD prepared our works for us in advance (Eph. 2:10). They are GIFTS from HIM for us to do.
They are for HIS glory - not ours . . .
 
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justbyfaith

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Concerning eternal security; it is perfectly compatible with the holiness of the believer, see 1 John 3:6 as compared to 1 John 2:17...he who does the will of God abideth for ever...now, how long is that? Can it ever come to an end?

As for the rest of your post, Titus 3:5 is clear...regeneration is not through works of righteousness which we have done.

If I give $5 to the poor...or even $5,000,000...that is not going to produce within me the work of the Holy Spirit that we call regeneration.

Such a thing is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Jesus did indeed say, Ye must be born again.

If this is accomplished through works, then a bunch of scripture is invalid.

I suggest you meditate on the following:

Romans 4:1-8,

Ephesians 2:8-9,

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv),

Titus 3:4-7.

Now, when we are truly born again, it will produce good works in our lives...2 Corinthians 5:17 is clear that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old has gone; behold, all things are become new!

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in the heart through the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5) and we receive the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and is the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). Thus faith without works is dead.

However, it should be clear that we obtain this love through simple faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross...if we add works to this we are mixing something in that will corrupt the whole...for if we trust in our works to save us, we will not be saved. Our only hope is in that Christ died for us and thereby brought forgiveness for all of our sins.

As a result of being forgiven much, we love Him much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). (And this will produce good works, for real love is always in deed and in truth...again 1 John 3:17-18).

But our salvation is solely and completely through faith in Christ's finished work on the hill called Calvary.
 
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