Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

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marks

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Again, I think the core of this is you're seeing justification as a discrete one-time event, followed by sanctification. Whereas Guilano is seeing them together as the life long journey.
Understood, and thank you!

The question, as I see it, is whether or not we are intrinsically changed by our conversion.

To me, saved by grace means that all my works, whether good or bad, are not part of the equation of whether I have eternal life in Christ.

But for those who teach that we only remain saved if we consistently do works of righteousness, then that's a lost cause, well, let's just say, who will be the one to claim that they know for certain that they will not sin the remainder of their lives.

I don't think that this idea of "guilty before God" is understood very well.

If we are guilty before God, then how is it that God will live in us? And if God does not live in us, then how will we Ever be free from committing sins?

Much love!
 
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marks

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I can't say I know this for sure; but it's what I believe. If God shows us something is wrong and we do it anyway, we had our chance at having God fix it for us. Maybe we'll get another chance that way, maybe two; but sooner or later, the Holy Spirit will give up on it. That doesn't mean the person is damned. It doesn't undo the other things that were justified. It means the person will have to work it out by himself. God offered to help and turned down -- so the person will have to master that urge on his own. He will have sinned against the Holy Spirit in the matter and cannot expect God's help or forgiveness unless he masters it on his own.
I'm so very glad this is not true!

At least, I know it's not true in me. And I know the Bible says that God will never give up on me.

But I don't believe this for minute, that God will give us maybe a few chances to reform, and then just lets us do it ourselves.

This doesn't even begin to address our relationship with our Creator. I can't do anything on my own! And He already gave to me Jesus, and says He'll likewise give to me all else. Is that not true?

And if God is helping me, and I can't pull it together, what hope do I have when God abandons me??

But I know He never will, and I know that He will continue to sanctify me, so that even those things that take many more years to fix, He's going to fix those too.

I've very curious, why would you think God would abandon you to your own efforts after you've been born from Him, His child?

Much love!
 

Enoch111

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Again, I think the core of this is you're seeing justification as a discrete one-time event, followed by sanctification.
This is exactly what the Bible reveals. And Christians do not have the liberty to change what God has said. We are to simply believe God.

And sanctification is the process which follows and ultimately leads to glorification (which is supernatural again).
 

amadeus

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I like to think of it as a drowning man who sees someone in a boat coming to rescue him. If he has faith in the person in the boat, he'll get in the boat. Could he claim to have faith if he refused to get in the boat? You have to agree with the people trying to rescue you and get in the boat.

I went through the Bible once to see, and you are right. We will be judged by our works. If God by His Grace makes it possible for us to do good, what excuse do we have for not doing them? Why do people stumble at this? Why do they resist it?
Aye, what we have been given is the very power of God. When it takes longer than just a moment of repentance, it is because we continue in some measure for some reason to resist the leading the of Holy Spirit in us.

People resist many times, if not always, because they have something in the ways of the old man of which they don't want let go. Then what we will see is the lukewarm one who is spit out of God's mouth.
 

amadeus

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I've very curious, why would you think God would abandon you to your own efforts after you've been born from Him, His child?
Why were Adam and Eve left to their own choice in Eden, to eat or not to eat the forbidden fruit. When they did they died as God had warned them from the beginning. Are we better than Adam and Eve? Is God a respecter of persons?
 
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amadeus

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Really?

Justified over and over?
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." I Cor 15:31

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17
 

Grailhunter

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In Romans 4:5, it is written that to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

Therefore the Lord justifies the ungodly person.

However, He does not leave them in that state; for justification is to declare righteous. And it is impossible for God to lie. He calls those things which be not as though they are; and in so doing creates a new reality; that the person is righteous in reality and in the practical sense (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7).

In imputing righteousness to a man, impartation cannot be far behind.

Yet, I would say that there is a valid teaching that we can glean from Romans 4:5, that God declares us righteous even when we blow it; and that therefore He calls us righteous in a sense that cannot be shaken. If you believe in Jesus, then the Lord counts you as righteous no matter whether you sin or not. Your identity in Christ is that you are the righteousness of the Lord in Him; and this identity is secure and cannot be messed with.

So then, because you are righteous, go and live like it. Your behaviour ought to reflect who God says you are in Him.

It may not happen overnight; but because you are now righteous in Christ, you will begin to live righteously over the fact that your paradigm has shifted and because you have a new identity. You will behave like you believe yourself to truly be in every aspect of your faith.

And obedience is not a condition for salvation; while it is the normal result of being truly saved. If I believe in Christ with a saving faith and die two minutes later, I had no opportunity to do any good works. Do I then go to hell? if obedience is a condition then I do.

However, I don't believe that the Bible teaches us that:

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Because I do believe that works translates into obedience; and therefore it is saying here that to him that obeyeth not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. And that God counts righteousness to those who are not obedient.

So then, does this mean that we ought to just sin and not be obedient to the Lord? God forbid! We who have died to sin ought not to live in it any longer.

Everyone is a sinner before they come to faith in Christ.

Therefore, the Lord has to justify sinners or else no one would be justified.

He does not leave them in the state of being sinners (2 Corinthians 5:17).

But the verses in question show that our salvation is not dependent upon our obedience but on a simple faith in what Christ did for us on the Cross.

If anyone receives this and is thankful, they will love Jesus much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). And this will result in practical obedience (1 John 3:17-18).

We must not put the cart before the horse. Salvation is through simple faith (alone) in the finished work of Christ upon the Cross; and obedience is the sure result of salvation for those who are not of the same example as the thief on the Cross.

Thanks JBF....Hope you are all good. And you to @Giuliano . I can copy in all the scriptures for both sides of this discussion into the thread and the list is pretty long. That way you guys can hand out the scriptures so they can throw them back a forth. Of course one might consider the truth in between them. It was not a human that came up with this plan to save humanity. It was so serious that the Son of God had to go through the passion. Most likely the success rate of that plan is pretty high, if the plan was destine to mostly fail, why would God want His Son to die for it? But still the higher understanding is the truth between these scriptures. That is what this discussion should be about....not taking sides. It makes no sense to take sides.
 

amadeus

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Understood, and thank you!

The question, as I see it, is whether or not we are intrinsically changed by our conversion.

To me, saved by grace means that all my works, whether good or bad, are not part of the equation of whether I have eternal life in Christ.

But for those who teach that we only remain saved if we consistently do works of righteousness, then that's a lost cause, well, let's just say, who will be the one to claim that they know for certain that they will not sin the remainder of their lives.

I don't think that this idea of "guilty before God" is understood very well.

If we are guilty before God, then how is it that God will live in us? And if God does not live in us, then how will we Ever be free from committing sins?

Much love!
God only lives in that part of us which has already been cleaned. Until it is all cleaned we remain double minded as James explained it. Staying double minded instead of moving ever more closely to God allowing Him to clean out more of our filth and replace it with His goodness is what must occur if we are to make it with Him to the end:

"He must increase, but I must decrease" John 3:30 The increasing is of Him me while the decreasing is of me in me.
 
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brakelite

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This is exactly what the Bible reveals. And Christians do not have the liberty to change what God has said. We are to simply believe God.

And sanctification is the process which follows and ultimately leads to glorification (which is supernatural again).
And yet none shall be saved without being sanctified. Would I be correct in the following...the Evangelical position is that if obedience is a sign of justification having occurred, or if obedience is necessary to salvation, then we are into legalism. Obedience is not a sign of justification or necessary to salvation, but it is a sign of discipleship and effective following of Christ.

Perhaps we can best understand this position if we reverse it. If we are not obedient to God's commands, then where do we find ourselves? If we are not obedient, then we are not good disciples--we are not good witnesses for Christ. A disciple--a follower of Christ--is a good disciple only when he is obedient. Our witness is compromised severely when we are disobedient. In fact, are we still disciples at all of we are disobedient? Our effectiveness as Christ's ambassadors in the world is largely destroyed. But when we are not obedient, are we still justified? The Evangelical gospel says, Yes. Obedience is not a sign of justification or necessary to salvation. We may not be good witnesses or disciples if we are disobedient, but disobedience does not affect our justified standing--we are still saved.

The Evangelical gospel believes that justification declared is all that is necessary to be saved, while justification experienced is the result of salvation already secured, and it belongs more properly in the area of sanctification. The Evangelical gospel does not believe that obedience is the condition of salvation at all.
It seems to me that evangelicals believe we can be saved... Justified... On God's declaration alone... Without the new birth.
But is that correct? Are we saved solely on the basis of imputed righteousness... Declared righteousness... Without experiencing justification through becoming new creatures?
 

Giuliano

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I'm so very glad this is not true!

At least, I know it's not true in me. And I know the Bible says that God will never give up on me.
I'd like to see where it says that.

But I don't believe this for minute, that God will give us maybe a few chances to reform, and then just lets us do it ourselves.
God will not always strive. . . . Grieve not the Spirit.

This doesn't even begin to address our relationship with our Creator. I can't do anything on my own! And He already gave to me Jesus, and says He'll likewise give to me all else. Is that not true?
This is not a satisfactory attitude. God wants people to grow up. God gives us everything we need, so we should never say we're being tested beyond what we can bear -- and then think God will do everything for us if we plead about how unable we are to do anything. "When I was a child. . . "

And if God is helping me, and I can't pull it together, what hope do I have when God abandons me??
You learned a lesson out of it -- don't despise God when He offers to help. You can pull it together too. You were given a choice -- the easy way or the hard way -- and you picked the hard way. Learn from that not to make that choice again.

But I know He never will, and I know that He will continue to sanctify me, so that even those things that take many more years to fix, He's going to fix those too.
Not in any areas of you life where you use free will to oppose Him. God can desert some people completely too if they rebel too much -- and they become like dogs turning to their vomit.

I hope I didn't say God abandons people over one offense. I think He gives up in the areas where we resist Him help.

I've very curious, why would you think God would abandon you to your own efforts after you've been born from Him, His child?

Much love!
We have free will. God respects that. We should too. We need to learn to take responsibility for our decisions.

People can be born of water, but that is not the same as born of the Spirit. People born of the water can sin and often do; and some stray off and stop being Christians. Some want Jesus to do everything for them. If he doesn't, they aren't interested in him. Those who fail at this stage do not get born of the Spirit. The person born of the Spirit does not sin -- he knows better than to act on any sinful thought or thought that comes his way. It's not worth it. I honestly don't think most people know what "born from above" means. They think Nicodemus was a dunce while they know.

If I offered to help a drug addict reform his life and gave him a loan to buy food, would I do that again if he went and spent the money on drugs? I've been tricked in the past by people I didn't know were on drugs, only to find out later they were addicts who didn't use the money I gave them for what they said. Do you think I gave them more money? Surely not. It would make them worse.

I've grown up myself when it comes to helping people. Right now, I'm helping someone in prison. He had stopped using drugs when he moved in with me, so I thought I should help him financially until he could get back on his feet. I didn't demand any rent since he had other bills. If he could pay something, fine; if not fine. He still had to go get sentencing for some crime and now he's in prison. I trust him. He trusts me. If he got back on drugs when he gets out, I'd kick him out of my house. I'd still care about him. I'll still try to help him in other ways -- but I wouldn't let him live with me for free just because he made promises again. I may help him get a car when he gets out too. If he messes up, he could say goodbye to that too. I'm not helping him so he'll be dependent on me the rest of his life. I want him to grow up and be happy -- whatever that means for him. We had talked about Jesus before he went to serve his sentence. Lots of things got straightened out for him; and in prison, he met someone who held services. He's a Christian now. I am pleased to see him getting his life together.

What I learned is that you can't help people by "enabling" them. Some Christians seem to expect God to enable them. They think they can keep repeating the same sin over and over -- and God is going to fix it for them endlessly. God may help them in other matters; but sometimes we have to learn the hard way. I wonder sometimes about Paul's thorn in the flesh. I'm not sure he understood fully why he had it. At any rate, he prayed to have it removed and it never was. I could guess at what his mistake was, but it would only be a guess.
 

Jane_Doe22

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This is exactly what the Bible reveals. And Christians do not have the liberty to change what God has said. We are to simply believe God.

And sanctification is the process which follows and ultimately leads to glorification (which is supernatural again).
There's whole swaths of people that read the Bible and hear God and salvation explained as being one lifelong journey, rather than separated out into justification and sanctification.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Understood, and thank you!

The question, as I see it, is whether or not we are intrinsically changed by our conversion.

To me, saved by grace means that all my works, whether good or bad, are not part of the equation of whether I have eternal life in Christ.

But for those who teach that we only remain saved if we consistently do works of righteousness, then that's a lost cause, well, let's just say, who will be the one to claim that they know for certain that they will not sin the remainder of their lives.

I don't think that this idea of "guilty before God" is understood very well.

If we are guilty before God, then how is it that God will live in us? And if God does not live in us, then how will we Ever be free from committing sins?

Much love!
Every good seed in good soil produces good fruit, agreed?

People whom don't believe in justification/sanctification being two separate things are simply looking at the whole picture, rather than subdividing it out into seed then later there'll be a tree. You don't have to be a full blown fruiting tree right now or any other point in mortality- that's not the focus. Rather it's the whole picture and the continual growth.
 
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Giuliano

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Every good seed in good soil produces good fruit, agreed?

People whom don't believe in justification/sanctification being two separate things are simply looking at the whole picture, rather than subdividing it out into seed then later there'll be a tree. You don't have to be a full blown fruiting tree right now or any other point in mortality- that's not the focus. Rather it's the whole picture and the continual growth.
The parable of the Sower of Wheat also speaks to the situation. Some grains don't mature and yield a harvest.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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But they are still wheat and still growing :)

But we are told the end thereof that they do not endure. They are either choked out by the cares of this world. Or wither away (as the fig leaf) scorched and baked by the Sun; because it has no root. Or they lack moisture.

Mark 4:16-17 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Only one ground brings forth fruit. Totally different ground. It is the Kingdom (within) bringing forth Spiritual fruit. Mark 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Never are we painted a pretty picture of being “choked out” “scorched” or falling away offended when persecution arises for the sake of the word...as some form of endurance but instead are urged to seek first the Kingdom of God.
 
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Stranger

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People oppose imputed righteousness because it makes them feel good to be accepted by God for their good works. They want to earn it. They want to deserve it.

God has no problem dealing with your sins. He has no provision for your righteousness. Does any really want to stand before God and Christ in their own righteousness?

Stranger
 

Giuliano

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Thanks JBF....Hope you are all good. And you to @Giuliano . I can copy in all the scriptures for both sides of this discussion into the thread and the list is pretty long. That way you guys can hand out the scriptures so they can throw them back a forth. Of course one might consider the truth in between them. It was not a human that came up with this plan to save humanity. It was so serious that the Son of God had to go through the passion. Most likely the success rate of that plan is pretty high, if the plan was destine to mostly fail, why would God want His Son to die for it? But still the higher understanding is the truth between these scriptures. That is what this discussion should be about....not taking sides. It makes no sense to take sides.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus answers that question, I think. Jesus was not content to stay in Heaven when he saw misery on the earth; and that misery also grieved the Father. Jesus did it for love: Love for us and love for the Father. The Father allowed it since He knew it could end the problems and all would end well.
 
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