Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 15, 2019

Grailhunter said:
You sin against Christ. He is the judge. Because of the Grace of Christ, God the Father never sees your sins. You are presented to the Father, righteous and justified. Our sins are between us and Christ. He was given all authority. That is why the scriptures can say...for where there is no law there is no transgression and those that abide in Christ cannot sin.

If the Christian will not repent of that sin, then God does not overlook it. Yet "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light (includes repentance) then the blood of Christ washes away all sins (1 John 1:7) and the Christian is seen as blameless, spotless, 2 Peter 3:14. "IF" the Christian will not repent, then he is no longer walking in the light and his sins are no longer cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

IF it is impossible for the Christian to sin, then Christ shed His blood for no reason. But 1 John 1:7 shows the necessity of Christ's blood to keep the Christian spotless, blameless by having all sins continued to be washed away. Yet 'cannot' does not mean 'impossible'.

1 John 1:8 for a Christian to say he has no sin....is a sin.

justbyfaith · Oct 15, 2019

Nondenom40 said:
God lives in me, yet i still sin. Sin is a part of every believers life until they leave this life.

Not necessarily; for it is possible to abide in Him consistently and therefore walk in consistent victory over and freedom from the power of sin (1 John 3:6; compare 1 John 2:17)

Nondenom40 said:
When we do sin, we confess and move on; 1 Jn 1:9

That is a good way of dealing with it; see also 1 John 1:7. The word "all" is most important.

justbyfaith · Oct 15, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
IF it is impossible for the Christian to sin, then Christ shed His blood for no reason.

Actually, Christ shed His blood so that we might be sanctified...which means that we will not sin. See Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29.

Ernest T. Bass said:
1 John 1:8 for a Christian to say he has no sin....is a sin.

Right...and we all have sin dwelling within us. It does not have to be alive within us so that it affects our behaviour. It can be put to death (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8, Romans 8:12-13).

Grailhunter · Oct 15, 2019

VictoryinJesus said:
you didn’t answer the question: how many times can one be converted?

You said God never sees your sin...that “I will remember their sins no more” is the New creature. So are saying you saying the New creature sins? who God said the former is passed away (dead in sin) and forgotten ...Behold I make all things new. Philippians 3:13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Ladies before gentlemen

you didn’t answer the question: how many times can one be converted?

Sorry...once. I have seen people get baptized more than once. I do not believe it is usually necessary. I am talking of unusual circumstances.

The point is...I am not sure where you joined this conversation...and it carries over from others. The point is that people have been arguing and throwing scriptures back and forth on salvation and sinning for centuries....it has caused thousands of divisions in the Church when it was not necessary. There is a truth.

Our sins are between us and Christ. The OT sins were against God's Law....the Mosaic Law, against God the Father. We are not under the Law because Christ purchased us out of that system of sin and tally. Where there is no Law, there is no violation. Our transgressions are between us and Christ. A little different in context. We are of the family of God.

If your son robs a bank...federal charge....prison.
If he robs you....you handle it in the family.
Not with out punishment....Christ went to the cross for a plan that would succeed. Not that every person is sinless. Not that every person will make it to Heaven. But would a God die for a plan that would fail?

Jane_Doe22 · Oct 15, 2019

marks said:
Actually, in relegating justification to a process that starts but not complete, and will be complete later, if we all do the right good works, then justification has been shifted over from grace through faith to works.

Imputation of righteousness to salvation becomes ours through believing, when we are born again, or by working, which is over the course of a lifetime.

So I'd have to disagree in saying that it's looking at a totally different picture.

Justification is when we cease to be the flesh person who sins, and we are reborn the spirit person who does not. This is a change of both nature and status. Sanctification is as we in that new nature learn to control our flesh, which has been left untouched for now.

Much love!

That's literally the same picture with different wording.

Grailhunter · Oct 15, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
If the Christian will not repent of that sin, then God does not overlook it. Yet "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light (includes repentance) then the blood of Christ washes away all sins (1 John 1:7) and the Christian is seen as blameless, spotless, 2 Peter 3:14. "IF" the Christian will not repent, then he is no longer walking in the light and his sins are no longer cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

IF it is impossible for the Christian to sin, then Christ shed His blood for no reason. But 1 John 1:7 shows the necessity of Christ's blood to keep the Christian spotless, blameless by having all sins continued to be washed away. Yet 'cannot' does not mean 'impossible'.

1 John 1:8 for a Christian to say he has no sin....is a sin.

The discussion is not about repenting...of course repent.
Christians do sin...transgress...but the sins do not separate us from God the Father or God the Son.

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 15, 2019

justbyfaith said:
.

God imputes righteousness without works (Romans 4:6); that is, He declares a man righteous through his faith. It is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18). Therefore, when He declares a man righteous, He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17); thus creating a new reality, that the man is truly righteous in His sight. And if in His sight, then in reality; for it is written,

Heb 4:13, Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Living faith in Jesus Christ is the only condition for salvation; which will normally lead to the doing of righteousness.

I think that I must disagree with you there. For there are many verses that teach that a man can walk in total freedom and victory (among them: 1 John 3:5-9, Hebrews 10:10-14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; and 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6). Also, compare 1 John 3:6 with 1 John 2:17.

Romans 4:6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God reckons righteousness without works,"

....shows David was credited righteousness without the flawless, strict works required by the OT law that he lived under. Yet he was justified by his obedient faith in that he DID repent of his sins. David was justified by faith WITHOUT deeds of that OT law Romans 3:28.

Romans 4:7-8
7- Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8- Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Verse 7 whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered? The disobedient impenitent? No. THe obedient repentant person? Yes.

Not s single example anywhere in the Bible of God forgiving those that live impenitently, disobediently, not a single example of God reckoning a disobedient, impenitent person as righteous.

Facts given in the context:
--David was justified by faith (not by works required by the law of Moses)
--justification cannot take place without God's forgiveness
--God's forgiveness does not take place without repentance
--therefore David's faith must have INCLUDED obedience in repenting of his sins.

God did not overlook David's sins for God does not justify men by overlooking their sins.

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 15, 2019

Grailhunter said:
The discussion is not about repenting...of course repent.
Christians do sin...transgress...but the sins do not separate us from God the Father or God the Son.

If sins go unrepented of they will separate one from God. The Jews were God's chosen people yet "your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 15, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Actually, Christ shed His blood so that we might be sanctified...which means that we will not sin. See Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29.

Right...and we all have sin dwelling within us. It does not have to be alive within us so that it affects our behaviour. It can be put to death (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8, Romans 8:12-13).

There is no verse that says it is impossible for a Christian to sin. If it were impossible for the Christian to sin, then it makes no sense for the Christian to be told to continue to walk in the light so all his sins will be cleansed by the blood of Christ when the Christian has no sins to be cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

Romans 6:2 a Christian is one who is dead to sin and does not have sin continually dwelling in him. It therefore is not possible for a Christian to be at the same time both be dead to sin and have sin dwelling in him, again, this is not possible or logical.

Grailhunter · Oct 15, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
If sins go unrepented of they will separate one from God. The Jews were God's chosen people yet "your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

I am not a Jew, do not quote Jewish scriptures to me like they pertain to Christianity. If you want to be a Jew, quite wasting my time.

If sins go unrepented of they will separate one from God.

Repented and forgiven!!! And if you forget one....you go straight to hell!! Right?

marks · Oct 15, 2019

Jane_Doe22 said:
That's literally the same picture with different wording.

But it's not.

In the one case justification is a one time event that occurs as we are reborn, and we are then justified forever.

In the other case, justification occurs over the course of the lifetime, or only at the end of one's life, when your works are weighed up and found to be sufficient.

Either I am justified, now, or I'm not, and if I'm not, then I waiting for it to come in the future, or to happen now, but not that I've already been justified. In which case I'm not waiting, I already have.

Much love!

Jane_Doe22 · Oct 15, 2019

marks said:
But it's not.

In the one case justification is a one time event that occurs as we are reborn, and we are then justified forever.

In the other case, justification occurs over the course of the lifetime, or only at the end of one's life, when your works are weighed up and found to be sufficient.

Either I am justified, now, or I'm not, and if I'm not, then I waiting for it to come in the future, or to happen now, but not that I've already been justified. In which case I'm not waiting, I already have.

Much love!

In both cases:
A person is justified by faith.
As a disciple of Christ as person is tasked with following Him.
At no point does the disciple of Christ have a license perform acts contrary to His will. When that does happen, the person repents.
Over time they become more like Him, stopping doing things against His will and doing/reflecting the things He does.
Eventually (aka sometime after mortal death) they have become fully like Him.

brakelite · Oct 15, 2019

Nondenom40 said:
In Heb 11 nowhere does it say 'obedience was a condition of their salvation'. By faith.....What the o.t. men and women of God did by faith was a proof of their faith, it didn't give them faith or salvation. This is the book of James all over again. You say youre a christian? Great, prove it. Thats James in a nutshell. And this is exactly what Heb 11 is demonstrating. 2 Thess 1:8-9 speak of obedience, but to what? The law? No, the gospel. And unless youre assuming no one sins after being born again, you'd be wrong. My certificate of debt is gone, yet i still sin. God lives in me, yet i still sin. Sin is a part of every believers life until they leave this life. When we do sin, we confess and move on; 1 Jn 1:9

Why do you still sin?

amadeus · Oct 15, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Ok guys! Thinking caps on! Full power!
Question one; Can you sin! I am expecting you to say yes.

And if we do say, yes, then would that mean we are NOT born of God as per I John 3:9?

amadeus · Oct 15, 2019

justbyfaith said:
If anyone is truly born of God, they cannot sin (1 John 3:9).

So then have people, [me too], at times in error stated that they were born of God when they still at times still do succumb to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life? See here the example of Peter and then the explanation of Jesus with regard to how to determine who is a person's Father... or not:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt 16:17

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." Matt 16:23

"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:42-44

Grailhunter · Oct 15, 2019

amadeus said:
And we do say, yes, then would that mean we are NOT born of God as per I John 3:9?

That was a rhetorical question amadeus. We are born again and born of God. For those that do not think baptism means anything...ooops!

amadeus · Oct 15, 2019

VictoryinJesus said:
that which is born of flesh is flesh. That born of Spirit is Spirit. 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Entangling the two: where one is: “greater” is He that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
The significance of come out “Walk Not after the flesh but after the Spirit.” that which is outward and corruption...greater is He in you ...than that which is outward. Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Indeed, and some [all?] who have been born of God [born again or born from above] have also not completely killed their own old man [their beasts]. While the old man lives at all we are double minded.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded" James 4:8

"She [wisdom] hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:2

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

amadeus · Oct 15, 2019

Giuliano said:
Some people do have that attitude even if you don't know it.

I recall one such a number of years ago on another forum who thought it was OK to lie about me and others who disagreed with him so as to further his agenda because he believed it was also God's agenda. He said it was OK to lie because he had been born of God and could not sin. His final salvation was already effectively set in concrete.

amadeus · Oct 15, 2019

Grailhunter said:
That was a rhetorical question amadeus. We are born again and born of God. For those that do not think baptism means anything...ooops!

Not to me! Sometimes I wonder if some have been conceived but either remain in the womb or are stuck in the birth canal unable to break forth to the Light! They only think [or hope] they have been born of God. The fruits of course tell the story, but who can discern the good fruits from the evil fruits?

Nondenom40 · Oct 15, 2019

brakelite said:
Why do you still sin?

Because i'm still in this world and so is satan. And i fail God regularly. You?

Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

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