Food for Thought on Chris-tmas Holydays

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dchena

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Jordan, I think you took Collosians 2:16 out of context, and have therefore misunderstood it. Paul is encouraging the Colossians to remain full in Christ. He is telling them not to let the philosophies of man take them captive and condem them. They are full in Christ alone. By allowing themselves to be judged by man and basically pressured into participating in the festivals they are allowing themselves to be condemned. "These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ" (2:17) I don't think he is saying that it's alright to observe their holidays, as long as you give meaning to Christ, or understand that it's 'really' about Christ. He's saying that by observing them you are missing the point, it is ALL about Christ and only Christ. You are condemning yourself by splitting it up between Christ and the festivals. And didn't God tell the Jews when they were about to cross the river and go to the land they had been promised as their inheritance to destroy all evidence of the pagan festivals and worship? God was pretty clear about that: "... you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annhialate them - the Hittites and the Armorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites - just as the LORD your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrant things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the LORD your God (Deut 20:16-18).I realize things are different for Christians. But this is insight into God's character and into what is most important to Him. And quite frankly our inheritance is far better, in my opinion, and should be well worth the sacrifice. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm struggling with this one. I have a child whom I have brought up (to this point) without Christianity. It is not an easy thing to change or practice. I know this very well. But we are led by our beliefs, right? So this is my direction. I'm in no way criticizing. I'm trying to get involved in a very important discussion and learning about the Word of God. And I'm certainly open to opposition and feedback from others. I want to grow. However, I've read some of the threads here, and have seen a lot of confrontational approaches and responses. I'm asking that my post not be taken in that regard. I'm not being confrontational or assuming I've 'got it right and you don't'. And if you guys are disagreeing with me to please be gentle with your responses. I'm new to Christianity, don't deserve or want a defensive response, and it's just not Christian : (Romans 14:1) Welcome those who are weak in the faith, but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions.(Romans 15:2) Each of us must please our neighbor for the good purpose of building up the neighbor.(Galatians 6:1) My friends, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 5:22-23) By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things.(Galatians 5:25-26) If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
 

Christina

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Bullfighter please stop the judgements, first it was judging on Sabbath,Now its Christmas you bring up the Mark in every post yet you do not even understand what it is.You barely have touched on any real understanding of the Word yet your little bit of knowledge is used to continually judge others Many of us have studied for years have a deeper understanding and constanly being judged by one who gets little is realy irratating. You are like the student continually judging the professor. Most of us understand Gods Words better than you we dont need your acting like you are the only one who is sent to warn us, we read and know God, we all have a Bible not just you...Get over yourselfFor the sake of your own soul.. You had better stop this judgemental attitude ...You are not saving us you are condeming yourself ...
 

Christina

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Colossians 2:16 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Means exactly what it says we are saved by Grace therefore we are not to judge anyone by the food they eat the days they worship, the hoilidays they observe. There is one way that is Jesus Christ you are not cut off if you chose worship Christ on a Sunday, if you eat non-kosher food, or celebrate a holiday. Christ paid the price so we would not be judged by these things ...But by our faith in Jesus Christ by the Grace of God
 

bullfighter

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Jordan, I think you took Collosians 2:16 out of context, and have therefore misunderstood it. Paul is encouraging the Colossians to remain full in Christ. He is telling them not to let the philosophies of man take them captive and condem them. They are full in Christ alone. By allowing themselves to be judged by man and basically pressured into participating in the festivals they are allowing themselves to be condemned. "These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ" (2:17) I don't think he is saying that it's alright to observe their holidays, as long as you give meaning to Christ, or understand that it's 'really' about Christ. He's saying that by observing them you are missing the point, it is ALL about Christ and only Christ. You are condemning yourself by splitting it up between Christ and the festivals. And didn't God tell the Jews when they were about to cross the river and go to the land they had been promised as their inheritance to destroy all evidence of the pagan festivals and worship? God was pretty clear about that: "... you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annhialate them - the Hittites and the Armorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites - just as the LORD your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrant things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the LORD your God (Deut 20:16-18).I realize things are different for Christians. But this is insight into God's character and into what is most important to Him. And quite frankly our inheritance is far better, in my opinion, and should be well worth the sacrifice. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm struggling with this one. I have a child whom I have brought up (to this point) without Christianity. It is not an easy thing to change or practice. I know this very well. But we are led by our beliefs, right? So this is my direction. I'm in no way criticizing. I'm trying to get involved in a very important discussion and learning about the Word of God. And I'm certainly open to opposition and feedback from others. I want to grow. However, I've read some of the threads here, and have seen a lot of confrontational approaches and responses. I'm asking that my post not be taken in that regard. I'm not being confrontational or assuming I've 'got it right and you don't'. And if you guys are disagreeing with me to please be gentle with your responses. I'm new to Christianity, don't deserve or want a defensive response, and it's just not Christian : (Romans 14:1) Welcome those who are weak in the faith, but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions.(Romans 15:2) Each of us must please our neighbor for the good purpose of building up the neighbor.(Galatians 6:1) My friends, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 5:22-23) By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things.(Galatians 5:25-26) If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
i know i seem convertational now days ,a bit edgy i am..i thankyou for your humble approach..however i seem still alittle low in patience[i know we are to have patience]..lets pray that i cheerfully recieve some again...my excuss is ,while i guess i have none.i pray that the people will see more clearly the things we ought to.i have seen to much in the ways of mans deciptions,it has made me weary with seeing and not been able to do much as i would like..i guess we are all blind in some form or more.love and forgiveness is hard to keep learning over and over again..once i stood on a hill in china i seen people all around me spend 3 million dollars a day on horse races,from there i seen the boat people .god did settle my spirit that day but i was confused with what i saw and could do nothing..i seen the irac war been built 1 year 4 months before 9/11 i seen the people be willing to kill for a game built by the powers that control them,i seen the christians fear and support the killing of woman and children[in which my heart screamed and cryed,why do you not feel there pain i asked]...i was left angery and again could do nothing...what i seen was forsure and was no lie .and i see what is comming as many do.but also i see the blindness that so many wish to keep...tku for listening ,perhaps i will learn the gift of words and gentilness
 

dchena

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Cedarheart, I think you could also be taking scripture out of context when you quoted Luke 17:2. But I do see your point. The previous sentence:(Luke 17:1) Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! And following in Luke 17:3 - Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender...I could be wrong, but I don't think Jesus was talking about making life for kids a bit more difficult by not celebrating Christmas. It seems to me that he was talking about putting walls in front of them that would keep them from God. I can see that your reasoning could be that by not allowing kids to participate in Christmas, it could make them resentful and cause them to turn from the Lord. I see that. But the flip side is that maybe by allowing the participation in Christmas you are setting tradition that ultimately provides a very large stumbling block that is extremely difficult to overcome. What we learn as children we usually come back to, and can not ever truely erase form our personalities. Even when we have come from severely horrible families and later make the choices to be different. We are always 'dealing' with our childhoods. Even when we try to make right choices. It make right choices in adult hood more difficult. I think receiving the fruits of the Spirit is made more difficult. I'm not saying that celebrating Christmas is abusive. I'm saying that in the same way, we might be putting stumbling blocks in our children's hearts and minds. And the enemy is extremely sticky in the way he works. He's not going to spare children. He's going to be ready to latch on to our kids when ever the opportunity arises. I know people who grew up without celebrating Christmas who harbor absolutely no resentment towards God or their parents. It's how we do it. I think you are underestimating children when you fear a negative reaction to not celebrating Christmas. We're dealing with the first and foremost commandment that was top of the list for the Jews, and top of the list for the Christians. To me, that makes it extremely important. Love God above all else. Just the fact that we are in a debate over it, presents us with the choice: Will we choose God over Christmas? What if God is asking us to make this choice? Doesn't Jesus say that many will seek, but few will make through the narrow gate, who is Jesus. And Jesus' first commandment is to love God above all else? And isn't part of Jesus's suffering that made him pure was sacrificing the desires of the flesh? I'm hoping you can enlighten me on this area, but it seems way too simple to just say we believe Jesus is our Savior, and expect our inheritance. The narrow gate - I'm not exactly sure what is meant by that, but it seems to me to be a warning that it isn't as simple as merely seeking Jesus. There's got to be something else. Romans 8:18 I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. And we have it easy compared to Paul. Christmas seems like a big deal to me, and a huge part of dividing ourselves between God and the traditions of man.
 

dchena

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Bullfighter,Your name implies an approach! Not an insult, I'm smiling as I type. It has been my own personal experience that when I become forceful and impatient with others in the matters of God and scripture it is because I care a whole lot about their fate, and I want them to know the beautiful things I am experiencing. It can be very difficult when we think others don't understand. I helps me A WHOLE LOT, to remeber that God is sovereign. No one can come to Jesus except by being drawn by God. He is in control. Everyone is at different stages and to remember our own humble beginnings, our own faults (I have thousands, and a couple very big ones), and that God is the only one who truely knows the hearts and minds of anyone else, and ourselves helps to keep me in check. We're all in this together. I think you make some excellent points.
 

dchena

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Colossians 2:16 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Means exactly what it says we are saved by Grace therefore we are not to judge anyone by the food they eat the days they worship, the hoilidays they observe. There is one way that is Jesus Christ you are not cut off if you chose worship Christ on a Sunday, if you eat non-kosher food, or celebrate a holiday. Christ paid the price so we would not be judged by these things ...But by our faith in Jesus Christ by the Grace of God
I don't think so Christina. Paul's concern, the purpose of the letter letter, is about not succumbing to false teachers. Why would he be writing within that context, that they should not worry about it, that they have been saved by Grace? It's opposite to his concern and the reason for his writing the letter. It doesn't make sense."...the false teachers were challenging Christ's preemminence and distracting the Colossians from the power of the gospel" (The Eerdman's bible Dictionary, p.228)The false teachers were judging them, persuading them to take part in their traditions and practices, probably through fear. They were insisting that they participate in these things (matters of food and drink, observing festivals, new moons and sabbaths, self-abasement, worship of angels, dwelling on visions). Paul was telling them that they have recieved Grace and they don't need to do these things. They are saved. Don't give in to the teaching of false teachers. They are a "human way of thinking".I have a lot of trouble seeing it the way you are interpreting it.
 

Christina

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Well then I guess the problem is with your understanding sense that is exactly what I said ...you just repeated the same thing I was saying Then tell me I have it wrong in fact seems you have decided everyones posting is wrong ... The only difference between what you and I said.. was :I was relating the same thing that is the lesson the message to the average person today ...and you are talking only about what Paul's actions wereWhich says one of two things to me either you do not have the ability to understand the message/lesson God is trying to convey, but only the text that is written . Text without the wisdom to apply the spirit is just words. You maybe a scripture lawyer, but if you dont understand the spirit of God in the Word,you missed the point as, All these things were given for examples so that we may learn, .. It's not a history book. Nor made to read like one.Or Perhaps when two are saying the same exact thing and you still say one is wrong and your right you are to concerned with just trying to prove yourself right.either one wont get you far here.
 

Jordan

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Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 

bullfighter

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Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
many verses says faith with out works is dead..but i know these also.must be a common denominator some where there.but my ? is why are you saying this
 

Jordan

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Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
many verses says faith with out works is dead..but i know these also.must be a common denominator some where there.but my ? is why are you saying thisAn error statement by bullfighter. The difination of works between Paul and James are completely different.
 

bullfighter

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Bullfighter please stop the judgements, first it was judging on Sabbath,Now its Christmas you bring up the Mark in every post yet you do not even understand what it is.You barely have touched on any real understanding of the Word yet your little bit of knowledge is used to continually judge others Many of us have studied for years have a deeper understanding and constanly being judged by one who gets little is realy irratating. You are like the student continually judging the professor. Most of us understand Gods Words better than you we dont need your acting like you are the only one who is sent to warn us, we read and know God, we all have a Bible not just you...Get over yourselfFor the sake of your own soul.. You had better stop this judgemental attitude ...You are not saving us you are condeming yourself ...
i am not judging you or anyone,would you stop saying that.you judge me from the beginning because you do not agree with me.and that is fine.my proof comes from the bible the same as you.my truth comes from watching man kind and what man has done to each other..you seem to make something against me so that you can delete me later.fine i guess ,but what i say is true and most of you know it.i repeat i am not judging anyone.you do however judge me....also i only put my words to the sub and topic of the tread.....i feel you are protecting for yourself, the things i say is wrong,that is fine.i see your bible skills ,i am abit blunt but i am so correct in what the bible says on these subs..we can go over my verses and you will say that those plain words are not what it says then you will take verses and make your own words of them,fine.i till you again i judge you not..and the things i say are plainly written in the bible....in vain the gentiles cut a tree and adorn it..and i will send you 1000 dollars if you show me where jesus said he is the sabbath..and god said keep his feast ,and jesus said they forsake the commands of god and keep their own traditions.. the mark is a great concern.we should be able to see it.and my replys are only for this reason.when you prove what it is beyond my understanding as it is now. i will not be pridefull but all thankfull and i will share the truth you share with me ...
 

dchena

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No, Christina, we're not saying the same thing. You are using Colossians to support the practice of these things, saying we are not judged by them so we can do them. I think I got that right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Whereas I am saying the opposite, that we are not judged by these things so we do not do them. By doing them we, and the Colossians, are condemning ourselves. We are regressing to the law by practicing observances and such. We are taking Grace for grantide. Paul talks a bit about something similar in Galatians 4:9-10." Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again? You are observing special days, and months, and seasons, and years. I am afraid that my work for you may have been wasted." Now, in Galatians, I believe the pressure was comming from Jews to keep Jewish customs, wheras in Colossians it was comming from Gnostics. You seem very defensive and easily offended. I don't think I have said anything to offend you. I certainly haven't said anything intentionally. It seems that you might be more interested in being a 'teacher' or a knower rather than a learner and a seeker, at leat in this thread of posts. You don't seem open to learning, or to accepting people at different stages of their understanding.You have intentionally insulted me, "...which says one of two things to me either you do not have the ability to understand the message/lesson God is trying to convey, but only the text that is written . Text without the wisdom to apply the spirit is just words. You maybe a scripture lawyer, but if you dont understand the spirit of God in the Word..." and I see no need for it. I take no offense, but do need to point it out because it is unacceptable. Where is your compassion? Are you a Christian? What does it mean to you to be a Christian? To be right? Or to live your life according to the principles and values of Jesus. What do you think the principles and values of Jesus are? I'm truely curious. Enlighten me. Show me in scripture where it supports insulting someone. Show me where it supports impatience. Show me where where being being right about something is valued above seeking God's wisdom and living these values. If you think you have made it, have achieved the level of wisdom God wants you to remain at, and preach, then I urge you to take some time with God to meditate on it. The fact that you are moderating a Bibe study forum and have been reading the Bible for a number of years, does not mean you are wise. It does not mean that you have authority to teach. It does not mean that you are further along on the continuum than any one of us here. If you had a one-up on me, or anyone else here for that matter, in the area of wisdom and understanding scripture, you most certainly would not be either insulting or impatient or so rigid in your belief that you are right.I have been complimented as wise before, but I reject that. Non of us are wise. Only God is wise. That is probably as close to wise any of us can be. To understand that only God is wise. Everyone of us is only ever doing the best we can, including you. I am openly challenging you to look at your responses here honestly. There is great dignity in that, and I know I would give you more respect for it. I'll do the same. We all should. Seriously, we're all in this together. We're all trying to understand scripture. And there is always so much more to understand. Peace be with you. I'm not looking for a fight, but the way you're going about things is way out of line.
 

Christina

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No you do not understand the difference between the Law an ordinances and Statutes which were all fulfilled in Christ but the statutes, ordinances ect. were nailed to the cross only the Law was not changed
 

Jordan

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No you do not understand the difference between the Law an ordinances and Statutes which were all fulfilled in Christ but the statutes, ordinances ect. were nailed to the cross only the Law was not changed
Matthew 5:17-18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;Wanna go round 3 dchena?
 

dchena

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Well... why don't you try a different approach. I'd really like to see it your way. You have given me the quote, and told me what it means. Why is it that you interpret it this way? Why is it that you reject my way of interpreting it? I think I understand that we are not subject to the Law, to be judged according to the Law. That Christ was a perfect sacrifice, and because of this sacrifice we are not judged according to the Law. We are judged according to faith. I understand that we are not judged by the food we eat, or by worshiping on a Sunday, or not, for that matter. I understand that both our willful sins, and our sins of unawareness do not keep us from God anymore. We are made perfect through faith. But as we develop faith, obedience follows, because we trust God and trust Jesus. The Lord continues to draw us. This is my experience. And to teach us. And we strive to be like Christ. We strive to be upright and uphold the commandments Jesus gave because we love God. Because we love God, we want to please Him. And patricipating in the remnants of pagan traditions seems to contradict my desire to be pleasing to the Lord. We know from the old testaments as well as from the new testament, what pleases God. Number one: love God above all else. For me, the fact that we have been blessed with Grace does not then mean that we can do as we wish because it 'doesn't count against us' so to speak. For me being Christian means that for the rest of my life I will be striving to be like Christ, knowing that I cannot be perfect, and extremely grateful that I am saved anyway. And your reference to Col 2:16 just seems out of context to what Paul was actually talking about, and the reason for his letter. Yes, the Bible is amazing in that it is written for all times, but context is still very important. Didn't Satan tempted Jesus with scripture taken out of context. Jesus put it into context and resisted evil. Can you please give me more background into your interpretation? Why have you seen it the way you do? This is a Bible study, so maybe other biblical references that support your view of this particualr interpretation of the context of Paul's concern for the Colossians.If you have references to contradict my position, that would be very cool too.
 

Jordan

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Well... why don't you try a different approach. I'd really like to see it your way. You have given me the quote, and told me what it means. Why is it that you interpret it this way? Why is it that you reject my way of interpreting it? I think I understand that we are not subject to the Law, to be judged according to the Law. That Christ was a perfect sacrifice, and because of this sacrifice we are not judged according to the Law. We are judged according to faith. I understand that we are not judged by the food we eat, or by worshiping on a Sunday, or not, for that matter. I understand that both our willful sins, and our sins of unawareness do not keep us from God anymore. We are made perfect through faith. But as we develop faith, obedience follows, because we trust God and trust Jesus. The Lord continues to draw us. This is my experience. And to teach us. And we strive to be like Christ. We strive to be upright and uphold the commandments Jesus gave because we love God. Because we love God, we want to please Him. And patricipating in the remnants of pagan traditions seems to contradict my desire to be pleasing to the Lord. We know from the old testaments as well as from the new testament, what pleases God. Number one: love God above all else. For me, the fact that we have been blessed with Grace does not then mean that we can do as we wish because it 'doesn't count against us' so to speak. For me being Christian means that for the rest of my life I will be striving to be like Christ, knowing that I cannot be perfect, and extremely grateful that I am saved anyway. And your reference to Col 2:16 just seems out of context to what Paul was actually talking about, and the reason for his letter. Yes, the Bible is amazing in that it is written for all times, but context is still very important. Didn't Satan tempted Jesus with scripture taken out of context. Jesus put it into context and resisted evil. Can you please give me more background into your interpretation? Why have you seen it the way you do? This is a Bible study, so maybe other biblical references that support your view of this particualr interpretation of the context of Paul's concern for the Colossians.If you have references to contradict my position, that would be very cool too.
Hate to break that up, but we HATE our way.Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Psalm 40:7 - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.II Peter 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.II Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.The answer is God interpret His Words for us. He does not need our help. So therefore...Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
 

dchena

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I don't get how you are responding, jordan. Why don't you explain yourself so I know what you're trying to point out? "Hate to break that up, but we HATE our way."What is that supposed to mean?
 

Christina

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dchena Your view is some what contradictory .....did not Christ heal on the Sabbath? You say you understand we are not judged on these things then say we are to follow them to be like Christ . It can not be both. While we are to strive to be like Christ. He himself didnt care about these things. This is what Paul was trying to teach. Do you think one is more likly to be called a better Christain because they do not eat Pork ??????? Not eating Pork will not save one anymore than eating it will condem one. We are saved by the grace of God period. We are to trust that fact. If I go to church to worship God on Halloween am I celebrating Halloween a pagan day or worshiping God ?? Only God knows what is in my heart, so to judge one because they were worshiping on a day you found was a pagan holidays means nothing. To celebrate Christmas if your heart is right is fine with God we are not to judge by these things because they mean nothing to God if your heart is right. This was the message of Christ.You are saying ones heart can not be right if you break an ordnance that Christ himself nailed to the cross. do you doubt he did that ?? Im sure you dont so why are you declaring it to be so.Galations 3:24 -2624 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. The only reason for the Law was to lead us to Christ once there why do you think you need to regress to what lead you there ? Its not necessary. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Yet you say we are under its supervision ???26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
 

Jordan

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I don't get how you are responding, jordan. Why don't you explain yourself so I know what you're trying to point out? "Hate to break that up, but we HATE our way."What is that supposed to mean?
The scriptures is clear as water... and it doesn't need my words at all.
 
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