No Righteousness = No Heaven

VictoryinJesus said:

Indeed. Galatians 6:14-16 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

It all points to Him.

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Amen!

@VictoryinJesus I think these threads are an excellent opportunity to emphasize the importance of sound, Biblical doctrine.

Enoch111 said:

So how can you disagree? Since justification does indeed ACTUALLY justify us, and God is the one who declares it, what's your problem? Or do you just like to disagree?

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Lol, sorry, that is an incomplete post. I got distracted and had to go away for a while... Came back and voila.... What I was going to say I have explained more fully on another thread. I'm sure you'll find it

brakelite said:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

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justbyfaith said:

It seems to me that you are trying to say here that the gospel of Christ is the law.

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Paul is saying that when gentiles are judged according to the gospel which he preaches, gentiles will be saved because they live according to the law written on their hearts.
Even those gentiles who have never heard the law!
Now what person who has heard the gospel, hasn't also heard the law? Did he not learn he was a sinner, a transgressor against the law?
To my mind anyone who hasn't heard the gospel, but live according to what light he has... The law written on his heart... Shall be saved according to the gospel, which teaches that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.
This magnifies the necessity for obedience to salvation.

brakelite said:

Paul is saying that when gentiles are judged according to the gospel which he preaches, gentiles will be saved because they live according to the law written on their hearts.
Even those gentiles who have never heard the law!
Now what person who has heard the gospel, hasn't also heard the law? Did he not learn he was a sinner, a transgressor against the law?
To my mind anyone who hasn't heard the gospel, but live according to what light he has... The law written on his heart... Shall be saved according to the gospel, which teaches that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.
This magnifies the necessity for obedience to salvation.

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Paul, at the beginning and end of Romans, speaks of 'the obedience of faith' & 'obedience to the faith'.

justbyfaith said:

He justifies the ungodly because of their faith; thus translating them from being wicked to being righteous.

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That's actually right. They are deemed to have their own righteousness...are declared righteous by God because of their faith. But He also justifies the wicked by their change of heart in doing righteousness since God sees into the heart from where righteousness and wickedness get their origin. Rather than just going on your opinion and following Luther's invention of "alien righteousness"...read the words of God.

Ez. 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Jesus proved this with his visit to Zacchaeus.

8 But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, “Look, I’ll give half of my possessions to the poor, Lord! And if I have extorted anything from anyone, I’ll pay back four times as much!”

9 “Today salvation has come to this house,” Jesus told him, “because he too is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.”

Zacchaeus was justified by Jesus by simply having a change of heart...without yet having done anything...just like the thief on the cross. This is what is meant by faith. The change of heart is worth the future actions. Faith without works is dead. Faithfulness is required for a continuing righteousness.

This is God's law of righteousness.
Ez.18 20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

brakelite said:

Paul is saying that when gentiles are judged according to the gospel which he preaches, gentiles will be saved because they live according to the law written on their hearts.
Even those gentiles who have never heard the law!
Now what person who has heard the gospel, hasn't also heard the law? Did he not learn he was a sinner, a transgressor against the law?
To my mind anyone who hasn't heard the gospel, but live according to what light he has... The law written on his heart... Shall be saved according to the gospel, which teaches that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.
This magnifies the necessity for obedience to salvation.

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I believe that no one will be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If a Gentile has been given the light of creation (Romans 1) and obeyed it; then the light of conscience (Romans 2) and obeyed it; they will then receive the light of Christ (Romans 3).

If they go on into the next world before hearing about the light of Christ, I believe that the gospel is going to be preached even to those who are dead.

And while if, in this life, you have heard the gospel and rejected it, you will not get another chance after you are dead, I believe that those who have never heard will indeed receive a first chance after they are dead.

As they stand before the Great White Throne, they will be given an opportunity to receive their judge and have their names written in the Book of Life.

Scripture:

1Pe 3:19, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 4:6, For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

brakelite said:

What do you think Paul means here regarding those who have not heard the gospel...
KJV Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

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I think what this is telling us is that everyone knows that they've done wrong. There is no one who doesn't have a some sort of sense of right and wrong, and all have done what they believe to be wrong.

One thing this is Not saying is that there are those whose conscience is clear, and therefore God accepts them because they don't think they've done anything wrong.

Much love!

Episkopos said:

But He also justifies the wicked by their change of heart in doing righteousness since God sees into the heart from where righteousness and wickedness get their origin.

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That's from the old covenant with Israel. And this is only true within that covenant. Because there remains the problem of the separation of man from God by sin. And those sins that separate us from God are already committed. There is no undoing them. So unless we are justified by God by His grace, we remain separated from Him, and all these supposed works which you rely on are declared by God to be unmentionably filthy cloths, not the white robes of true righteousness.

This is a leading cause of confusion, applying old covenant legal thinking to the new covenant of grace.

marks said:

One thing this is Not saying is that there are those whose conscience is clear,

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However, it does say this elsewhere, in Hebrews 10:2 (kjv) (compare Hebrews 1:3 (kjv)).

marks said:

and therefore God accepts them because they don't think they've done anything wrong.

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All of us have done wrong and know that it is so, if the truth be in us (1 John 1:10). However, our conscience can be clear over the fact that Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

justbyfaith said:

However, it does say this elsewhere, in Hebrews 10:2 (kjv) (compare Hebrews 1:3 (kjv)).



All of us have done wrong and know that it is so. However, our conscience can be clear over the fact that Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

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In Christ our conscience is clean, and we need have no remembrance of sins.

But I was replying to BL regarding those who do not know Christ.

I agree with you that the person who responds to God's light, God gives them more light.

Much love!

marks said:

But I was replying to BL (brakelite) regarding those who do not know Christ.

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Not to be confused with BoL (Bread of Life).

Episkopos said:

This is God's law of righteousness.
Ez.18 20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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Now some misdirected people will not understand that God doesn't change. His law of righteousness is eternal. The OT was about establishing righteousness....just as the NT is about establishing holiness being BUILT UPON righteousness...like an upper room being built on a first storey.

Now we see that Paul says that righteousness is learned....not "imputed" (alien righteousness) as the false doctrine of today goes.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The OT is given to us for instruction in righteousness. That means we aren't to just ignore God's word as many teach today. God actually speaks the truth...is there any surprise there?

God speaks truth even when men teach otherwise. A believer is to learn righteousness through the renewing of the mind. Otherwise there is iniquity.


2 Timothy 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Episkopos said:

Now we see that Paul says that righteousness is learned....not "imputed" (alien righteousness) as the false doctrine of today goes.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The OT is given to us for instruction in righteousness. That means we aren't to just ignore God's word as many teach today. God actually speaks the truth...is there any surprise there?

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Teaching about righteousness is not the same as making us righteous.

We do not become righteous by learning what righteousness is, unless, that is, we've already received righteousness from God. Then, when we learn what righteousness is, we recognize it, and do it.

Do whatever you want thinking that you can be accepted by God by being good.

The Law cannot make one righteous. Ignore that to your peril.

Episkopos said:

Ernest T. Bass said: ↑
Righteousness simply means 'right doing'.

Amen!

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh (toils) righteousness, is accepted with him.

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Absolutely. There is not one single example of one who lived in unrighteousness but justified anyway. 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:7; Acts 10:35; James 1:20 righteousness is something one WORKS, something one DOETH. It would be impossible for one to reach a state of being righteous by not ever DOING righteousness.

Romans 6:16 one is either serving
1) sin unto death - (unrighteousness)
or
2) serving obedience unto righteousness

There is no way for one to ever be righteousness except by obedience. And as I have posted before, obedience to God did not ever, anywhere in the Bible said to earn one righteousness. It is a necessary condition God requires.

Episkopos said:

not "imputed" (alien righteousness) as the false doctrine of today goes.

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It is not false doctrine, but faithful Bible doctrine.

Ernest T. Bass said:

2) serving obedience unto righteousness

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The order is as follows: faith --> obedience -- > righteousness.

Be sure not to leave out faith next time: it is a most essential factor in the equation.

justbyfaith said:

It is not false doctrine, but faithful Bible doctrine.

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it's a man-made teaching using faulty human reasoning. Luther was a frustrated monk who figured out a way, by his very carnal mind, around the experience of the cross. In so doing he eliminated actual righteousness and holiness. Just look at his legacy.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Romans 6:16 one is either serving
1) sin unto death - (unrighteousness)
or
2) serving obedience unto righteousness

There is no way for one to ever be righteousness except by obedience. And as I have posted before, obedience to God did not ever, anywhere in the Bible said to earn one righteousness. It is a necessary condition God requires.

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sin unto death ...is that born of flesh.
Obedience unto righteousness...is that born of Spirit.
Obedience unto righteousness overcomes sin unto death bring it into submission to Galatians 6:14-16
[14] But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Romans 7:22-25
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law (sin unto death)in my members, warring against the law (obedience unto righteousness) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law (obedience unto righteousness)of God; but with the flesh the law of sin (unto death.)

Episkopos said:

it's a man-made teaching using faulty human reasoning. Luther was a frustrated monk who figured out a way, by his very carnal mind, around the experience of the cross.

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It is nevertheless biblical doctrine. Martin Luther found freedom in Christ through the doctrine of justification by faith.

The Bible is very clear on the issue: salvation is not of works.

See

Romans 4:1-8

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)

Titus 3:4-7.

justbyfaith said:

Martin Luther found freedom in Christ through the doctrine of justification by faith.

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Actually Luther just felt better about not having to seek the Lord for an actual personal encounter in creating a humanized gospel based on beliefs ABOUT Jesus. Luther's scheme short-circuits the need for an actual personal encounter and visitation of God. God need not get involved since Luther's philosophy makes that obsolete. It creates a new and muddled religious system based on theoriticals and dogmatic positionings. That's all that a man-made solution can offer away from God getting involved. With this comes the false assurance of "being saved" that so many hold these days. These are based on a few misunderstood verses...and Peter even warned us about the difficult sayings of Paul.

And once a person puts their human beliefs in such a religious form ....it is very difficult to wean them from it since it requires an actual visitation from God to prove that these exist. And even then, this is simply called a holiness move of God....WITHIN the belief system.

So really there is a great difficulty in eliminating this trend towards religiosity.

Through the history of the Protestant church some revivals have sprung up...bringing real encounters with God and as a result holiness. But the very nature of man-made doctrines makes these short-lived. They are incompatible with each other.

A "house divided" cannot stand. Holiness cannot long exist in a culture that resists righteousness....that invents a religious righteousness as if spiritual things were make-believe. Something has to give. Holiness has been repeatedly rejected through adherence to an "alien righteousness" teaching.

Just look for holiness in today's churches.

But God has it this way for a good reason.

In each generation the truth must be re-discovered AWAY FROM the prevailing teachings of the masses. The lies of human theologies are only overcome by a fresh seeking of truth for a new outbreak of the truth. Christianity only works as a counter culture since the world will always opt for what seems right to the carnal mind. It continually resets to the carnal ways. The church follows this pattern throughout history. The kingdom of God works differently...backwards seeming to our own way of thinking. Hence the constant need for the seeking of renewal. Hence also the difficulty in absorbing anything of the kingdom of God since we seem always to be stuck in the starting gate.

But this also makes us one with the believers of every generation who have had the same struggle. Each generation must suffer in the same way for the truth. WHOEVER enters into the truth and lives Godly will suffer persecution...from the religious ones if not from the world at large.

Jesus has said this. One needs to look with honesty to see that this is so today as always.

But fewer and fewer will find the way to actual freedom in Christ.