Calvinism

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CharismaticLady

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5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated [1]; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin. [2]

[1]
~ Proverbs 20:9
~ Ecclesiastes 7:20
~ Romans 7:14
~ Romans 7:17-18
~ Romans 7: 21-23

[2]
~ Romans 7:7-8
~ Romans 7:25
~ Galatians 5:17

Yes, I do commit willful and daily sins, as does everyone. And yes, Christ died for any and all sins that I have committed and ever will commit. And no, this does not mean we can sin all we want; Paul deals with this later on in Romans.

Yes, I have read Romans 6 and 8, and 1 John 3, but with the way you seem to think that you cannot sin anymore, it makes me wonder if you've ever read the chapter between the 2, Romans 7...

A question; since you don't sin anymore, but great apostles the like of Paul and Peter did, are you saying that you have reached a higher spiritual plane than they are on? Because they sinned; Paul calls Peter out on it!

If you would like to deal with Romans 6 and 8 and 1 John, please tell me what you think they say.

So you relate to Romans 7? That is a person under the law with their sin nature intact. They are not born again of the Spirit. They are not even a Christian.
 
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Mjh29

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So you relate to Romans 7? That is a person under the law with their sin nature intact. They are not born again of the Spirit. They are not a Christian.

So, Peter and Paul are also not Christians?
 

CharismaticLady

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So, Peter and Paul are also not Christians?

Paul wrote:

Romans 6 and 8 are Christians. You are believing texts out of context, but more likely your whole denomination believes the lie.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

What did Peter write?
 

Mjh29

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Paul wrote:

Romans 6 and 8 are Christians. You are believing texts out of context, but more likely your whole denomination believes the lie.

Really? Because... when Paul wrote these originally, they were letters to the church. No chapter or verse divisions at all. It all flowed as 1 complete letter, which means that throughout the entire letter it had the same intended target audience. He wrote this letter to the church and the believers therein, not to the world. Observe.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Who is the we and the you?

1.) If you say that this chapter is talking to the unbelievers, then Paul is an unbeliever who is somehow writing Scripture. He counts himself among his audience by saying we! So, Paul is an unbeliever?

2.) Who is the we? The book must have told us somewhere the intended audience...

Romans 1:7 -- 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So... the unbelievers are the beloved of God, and are called to be saints?
 

CharismaticLady

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Really? Because... when Paul wrote these originally, they were letters to the church. No chapter or verse divisions at all. It all flowed as 1 complete letter, which means that throughout the entire letter it had the same intended target audience. He wrote this letter to the church and the believers therein, not to the world. Observe.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Who is the we and the you?

1.) If you say that this chapter is talking to the unbelievers, then Paul is an unbeliever who is somehow writing Scripture. He counts himself among his audience by saying we! So, Paul is an unbeliever?

2.) Who is the we? The book must have told us somewhere the intended audience...

Romans 1:7 -- 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So... the unbelievers are the beloved of God, and are called to be saints?

He is teaching the difference between the righteousness under the law, that isn't righteous at all, but sin and death, and the righteousness we have through Jesus and the Spirit. It is Romans 7 vs. Romans 8, which is the LAW vs. SPIRIT.
 

Mjh29

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He is teaching the difference between the righteousness under the law, that isn't righteous at all, but sin and death, and the righteousness we have through Jesus and the Spirit. It is Romans 7 vs. Romans 8, which is the LAW vs. SPIRIT.

1.) Paul does not say that. He says the we as Christians will indeed sin, but that we should not be ok with sin in our lives.

2.) Again, this is 1 whole letter. In the original text there were no chapter and verse divisions; it was just one whole message. Paul does not himself make this distinction.

3.) Paul then is not a Christian?

Romans 7:19 -- For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He admits that he does the evil which he wished he would not!! PAUL WAS A SINNER EVEN AS HE WROTE THIS LETTER, AND ADMITS IT!!!

So... Paul is not a Christian?
 

CharismaticLady

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1.) Paul does not say that. He says the we as Christians will indeed sin, but that we should not be ok with sin in our lives.

2.) Again, this is 1 whole letter. In the original text there were no chapter and verse divisions; it was just one whole message. Paul does not himself make this distinction.

3.) Paul then is not a Christian?

Romans 7:19 -- For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He admits that he does the evil which he wished he would not!! PAUL WAS A SINNER EVEN AS HE WROTE THIS LETTER, AND ADMITS IT!!!

So... Paul is not a Christian?

Paul knew the law very well, because he used to be a Pharisee. He is teaching why we don't need the law anymore to not sin. It is because we now have the Spirit that keeps us from sinning willfully.
 

Mjh29

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Paul knew the law very well, because he used to be a Pharisee. He is teaching why we don't need the law anymore to not sin. It is because we now have the Spirit that keeps us from sinning willfully.

But, again; Paul admitted that he still sinned, even as he wrote this letter!

So... Paul was an unbeliever?
 
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Steve Owen

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I do not understand the difference some make between the "Doctrine of Penal Substitution" and "Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement". They are one in the same just as the Doctrine of Evolution is identical to the Theory of Evolution and the Ransom Doctrine and Ransom Theory are the same. Calling something a "doctrine" only means it is a teaching (it does not lend validity to the doctrine and is, IMHO, a childish distinction).
Well stop making the distinction then and call it a doctrine, which is what it is. The reason Evolution is called a theory and not a law (never a doctrine) is scientific and nothing to do with theology. You know perfectly well that in the past you have attempted to make a difference between a 'doctrine' and a 'theory' of P.S.
Take your Bibles out and look a bit closer. What does Scripture say? Christ suffered on our behalf, for us, representing mankind as the “second Adam”, bore our sins in His flesh, became a curse for us, it was the will of the Father that He suffer at the hands of wicked men, the Father offered Him, He offered Himself, by His stripes we are healed. All of this is basic Christianity.
But it makes no sense without Penal Substitution. You have the Father crushing the Son for no reason, and then saying to us, "See what you've made Me do!" Or you have Jesus as a sort of autistic teenager saying, "I love you so much I'm going to jump off the Golden Gate bridge for you!" To which we might answer, "That's impressive, but how would it show how much You love us?" There is no purpose behind it.
The Bible tells us that 'God set Him [Christ] forth as a propitiation [a sacrifice that turns away wrath] by His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness' (Romans 3:25-26). Psalm 7:11 tells us that 'God is a just Judge; and God is angry with the wicked every day.' God's anger is not like ours which may flare up and subside in a moment. It is a righteous anger and it burns steadily against sinners. So how is God's anger propitiated? Only by the suffering and death of Christ upon the cross which satisfies His justice.
Do you see what is missing (what the doctrine of penal substitution has added)? Scripture never calls what Christ suffered a punishment suffered instead of us. Scripture never even calls what Christ suffered a punishment except it be by the estimation of “wicked men”. Not only is this idea foreign to Scripture but it is foreign to the first centuries of Christianity.
Let's go through Isaiah 53:4ff.
'Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.........' Here at once is substitution. He has made our burdens His (Matthew 8:16-17; Revelation 21:4).
'.......Yet we [emphatic pronoun] esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted......' And in this the Bible does not say we were wrong. Where we were wrong is in our understanding of why He was stricken.
'.......But He was wounded for our iniquities, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him......' we can stop there, I think. Chastisement is a penalty and He suffered it instead of us. that is penal substitution. But who is responsible for this chastisement?
Two questions:
1. Who transferred our iniquities to Christ? 'And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all' (v.6).
2. Who punished Him? 'Yet is pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief' (v.10). It is God the Father who has 'chastised' the Son. To chastise someone is to punish him. And God the Father has punished Christ in the place of us. Penal Substitution. the case is proved.

Two quick points which come from John Stott. We must never suppose that the Father inflicted upon the Son a punishment that He was unwilling to bear (John 10:18). Nor must we ever suppose that on the cross, the Son extracted from the Father a mercy that He was unwilling to extend (John 3:16).
Now add in what that definition left out. Penal Substitution holds that God punished Christ over and against passages that clearly state it is an abomination for God to condemn the righteous. That is what wicked men do, not God.
Scripture teaches that God made Christ to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us. All our sins were laid to the account of the sinless Christ. He was personally innocent but judicially guilty. In Psalm 69, which is very clearly messianic (cf. vs 9, 21), Christ describes His sins as real (vs 5, 7, 19).
Penal Substitution holds that God has to satisfy the demands of divine justice so for this reason God has to punish our sins in Christ. Again, this is absent Scripture except to condemn retributive punishment as a human wisdom to be abolished. Scholars have systematically developed the doctrine/ theory from Scripture, but it is not in Scripture itself. That is why it is both a doctrine and a theory, without distinction. Those little words matter a whole lot.
It is very clearly in Scripture, in Romans 3:26; 1 John 1:9. How can God be just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness? Because Christ Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2).
 
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