God's Laws Still In Effect

Davy · Oct 13, 2019

If Apostle Paul had taught that God's laws are no more for those in Christ Jesus, then he would not have taught the following Scriptures, which he actually reveals specific sins we are to stay away from! And this is New Testament doctrine!

Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

1 Cor 5:9-11
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
KJV

Don't even eat with those who do those sins! How ya gonna' know them if you don't know what the sins are? Where do we learn what those sins are? In God's Holy Writ.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

Apostle Paul reminds brethren again, about sins that are against entering into the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 4:1-4
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
KJV

Wow! Even Apostle Peter reminds brethren of the same sin trap that Paul warned the Churches about.

Rom 8:12-14
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
KJV

Once again Paul gives us the choice on how we live unto Christ, warning to not live after the flesh, which again HOW do we know how to do that? By The Holy Spirit guiding us first of all, and by study of ALL of God's Holy Writ with understanding by The Holy Spirit.

Eph 5:3-7
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
KJV

And yet again, Paul warns the Church against following sins of the flesh.

Col 3:2-10
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him That created him:
KJV

Again, Apostle Paul warns us as believers on Christ about going the wrong path, specifically spelling out certain sins again.

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

No room for doubt there. Paul made it plain that those who follow after those works of the flesh are definitely under the law.

In Summary:
IF... we walk in Christ by The Spirit, only THEN are we not under God's laws. We won't be doing anything against God's law in that case. Doing what is right according to God's Word there is no law against (Galatians 5). Because Apostle Paul gave so many warnings to the Churches about this, even spelling out specific sins of the flesh we are to not be found doing, that means we still need to be on watch of ourselves in not sinning. And when we do slip up, we repent and ask Him forgiveness and make a change.

justbyfaith · Oct 13, 2019

I don't normally respond to your posts, @Davy, but your title of this thread attracted me, I will address it now.

As believers in Christ we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), we are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and we are delivered from the law. This means that if we are born again, we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s) and that therefore the law does not apply to us in condemnation.

But that we are born again means that we are subject to the law in our minds (Romans 8:7). Those under the new covenant have the law written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) through faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and is the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

However, scripture is clear that we are regenerated not through works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5 and other scriptures also). It is through faith in Jesus Christ alone that we receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated and renewed.

Sorry, my wife is watching television and it is distracting, so I will cut out now.

breathoflife · Oct 14, 2019

For me it comes down to these two passages. In Colossians 2:14 we are told how the Lord took the mosaic covenant and nailed it to His cross canceling it. The Lord also disarmed the powers of darkness armed themselves with God holy, righteous and good Law. The reason they armed themselves with the Law is revealed in 1 Co. 15:55-56 the Law is where sin draws its power to become utterly sinful..

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 14, 2019

breathoflife said:
For me it comes down to these two passages. In Colossians 2:14 we are told how the Lord took the mosaic covenant and nailed it to His cross canceling it.

I agree with this. The OT law of Moses regulated the religion of Judaism while the NT law of Christ regulates the religion of NT Christianity. As you noted, Christ took the OT law out of the way making in ineffective, inactive. Therefore keeping the OT law cannot save, which is Paul's point in Galatians to those Christians in Galatia who had followed false Judaizing teachers in leaving the NT gospel back to the OT law and therefore were fallen from grace. Yet keeping the NT law of Christ, the gospel, does save (Romans 1:16; Romans 6:17-18). Salvation therefore is about following the correct law, the law of Christ.

101G · Oct 14, 2019

GINOLJC, to all.
Not saying that any is right or wrong, but consider this.
our Righteousness is in the Spirit of the law, and the written law which we're not subject to because of Christ, our Saviour, who fulfilled the written Law. (so civil nor ceremonial law apply to the Righteous), supportive scriptures, 1 Timothy 1:5 "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:"
1 Timothy 1:6 "From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;"
1 Timothy 1:7 "Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."
1 Timothy 1:8 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"
1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

so the law is not made for the Righteous, nor is it done away with, why? because of the ungodly. God is a rightious Judge, and if one is not in christ Jesus will meet the law at judgment. those who are lawless as the apostles states in verses 9b-10 is who the law is still in effect for. supportive scripture, or may we say "chapter", the book of Romans chapter 2.
and just a taste of the chapter for those without the law and are not in christ Jesus, Romans 2:11 "For there is no respect of persons with God."
Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: (STOP, ONE NEED TO RE-READ THAT PART AGAIN) and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
Romans 2:13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
"Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, (STOP, READ THAT AGAIN, .... TWICE), do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" (SAY WHAT?).

we suggest one need to find out what and what not apply to Y-O-U.

PICJAG.

justbyfaith · Oct 14, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
Therefore keeping the OT law cannot save,

However, salvation is unto keeping the OT law. 1 John 3:4-9.

Ernest T. Bass said:
Yet keeping the NT law of Christ, the gospel, does save

The source of our salvation is not in keeping a set of do's and don'ts; rather, we must believe in Christ so that He will makes us into new creatures in Him: as a result, we will be obedient to those tenets of NT law because His love is shed abroad in our hearts; and even and especially the NT law is fulfilled by love. We receive love because of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5); whom we receive by simple faith (Galatians 3:14).

Ernest T. Bass said:
Salvation therefore is about following the correct law, the law of Christ.

The law of Christ includes the OT law within it; for Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said that one jot or one tittle will pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away and all is fulfilled; and also that greatness in the kingdom depends on being obedient to and teaching obedience to the least of the commandments in the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20).

Also, salvation does not come through keeping any law; but rather we receive cleansing and forgiveness through the blood of Christ and this makes us into creatures that are by nature obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Davy · Oct 14, 2019

breathoflife said:
For me it comes down to these two passages. In Colossians 2:14 we are told how the Lord took the mosaic covenant and nailed it to His cross canceling it. The Lord also disarmed the powers of darkness armed themselves with God holy, righteous and good Law. The reason they armed themselves with the Law is revealed in 1 Co. 15:55-56 the Law is where sin draws its power to become utterly sinful..

You have a misunderstanding of the difference between God's laws and the old covenant. Sorry, but our Lord Jesus did not... nail all of God's laws to His cross. He nailed the old covenant blood ordinances and religious ritual, ceremonial commandments, etc. to His cross. It is still against God's laws today to do the things Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5, i.e., the Scriptures I quoted in my original post.

Gal 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
KJV

Lev 19:18
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
KJV

The very New Testament commandment for us as Christians to love our neighbor as ourself actually comes from... God's laws first given in The Old Testament Books. So how can one say Jesus nailed that on His cross??? To say such things shows lack of understanding in God's Word.

justbyfaith · Oct 14, 2019

It is nailed to the Cross in that we are forgiven of all of our sin(s); and that therefore our relationship to the law has changed. It no longer condemns us from the outside; while it still governs us from the inside.

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 16, 2019

justbyfaith said:
However, salvation is unto keeping the OT law. 1 John 3:4-9.

The NT law, not the OT law. The OT law cannot justify (Galatians 3:11) as the NT law can justify.

justbyfaith said:
The source of our salvation is not in keeping a set of do's and don'ts; rather, we must believe in Christ so that He will makes us into new creatures in Him: as a result, we will be obedient to those tenets of NT law because His love is shed abroad in our hearts; and even and especially the NT law is fulfilled by love. We receive love because of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5); whom we receive by simple faith (Galatians 3:14).

Salvation does require keeping the do and don't of the NT law. The NT law says do not lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. THose that do not keep these don'ts will be lost. One who does not keep the do's and don't of the NT law is a law breaker, is disobedient, is unrighteous. And one CONTINUES to be a law breaker, a disobedient unrighteous person until they decide to start following the NT law......he that continues to do unrighteousness continues to not be of God 1 Jn 3:10. There is no example in the Bible of one who continued in disobedient unrighteousness yet saved anyway.

Romans 6:16 if one is not keeping the do's and dont's of the NT law, then he is serving sin unto death, certainly not serving obedience unto righteousness. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian a right to be a law breaker. Therefore one must be obedient to the NT law to BECOME saved and continue to keep it to REMAIN saved.

justbyfaith said:
The law of Christ includes the OT law within it; for Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said that one jot or one tittle will pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away and all is fulfilled; and also that greatness in the kingdom depends on being obedient to and teaching obedience to the least of the commandments in the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20).

Also, salvation does not come through keeping any law; but rather we receive cleansing and forgiveness through the blood of Christ and this makes us into creatures that are by nature obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Ezekiel 36:25-27).

A few of the NT laws are the same as OT law...thou shalt not lie, that shalt not steal, thous shalt not commit adultery, etc. These things are sinful not because the OT law says they are sinful but are sinful because the NT law says they are sinful.
Yet nowhere does the NT law require circumcision, animal sacrifices, purifications, etc as the OT law required therefore not keeping these OT laws would be sinful.

Matthew 5:17-18 Christ took the OT law out of he way, not by destroying it, but took it out of the way by fulfilling it. Therefore not one jot or tittle of the OT law is in effect today. If Christ did not fulfill the law then He failed to do what He came to earth to do. This means ALL of the OT law, every jot and tittle, including animal sacrifices, circumcision, purification, ALL 600+ OT laws, are in effect and binding on us today, one is a debtor to the "whole law" Galatians 5:3 as Paul said to those in Galatia that left the NT for the OT law.

Matt 5:17-18 is NOT saying the OT law would last till heaven and earth pass away. Luke 16:17 shows that it would be easier for heavens and earth, the universe, to pass away than for the law to fail to accomplish its purpose, its goal.

Davy · Oct 16, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
The NT law, not the OT law. The OT law cannot justify (Galatians 3:11) as the NT law can justify.

Salvation does require keeping the do and don't of the NT law. The NT law says do not lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. THose that do not keep these don'ts will be lost. One who does not keep the do's and don't of the NT law is a law breaker, is disobedient, is unrighteous. And one CONTINUES to be a law breaker, a disobedient unrighteous person until they decide to start following the NT law......he that continues to do unrighteousness continues to not be of God 1 Jn 3:10. There is no example in the Bible of one who continued in disobedient unrighteousness yet saved anyway.

Romans 6:16 if one is not keeping the do's and dont's of the NT law, then he is serving sin unto death, certainly not serving obedience unto righteousness. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian a right to be a law breaker. Therefore one must be obedient to the NT law to BECOME saved and continue to keep it to REMAIN saved.

A few of the NT laws are the same as OT law...thou shalt not lie, that shalt not steal, thous shalt not commit adultery, etc. These things are sinful not because the OT law says they are sinful but are sinful because the NT law says they are sinful.
Yet nowhere does the NT law require circumcision, animal sacrifices, purifications, etc as the OT law required therefore not keeping these OT laws would be sinful.

Matthew 5:17-18 Christ took the OT law out of he way, not by destroying it, but took it out of the way by fulfilling it. Therefore not one jot or tittle of the OT law is in effect today. If Christ did not fulfill the law then He failed to do what He came to earth to do. This means ALL of the OT law, every jot and tittle, including animal sacrifices, circumcision, purification, ALL 600+ OT laws, are in effect and binding on us today, one is a debtor to the "whole law" Galatians 5:3 as Paul said to those in Galatia that left the NT for the OT law.

Matt 5:17-18 is NOT saying the OT law would last till heaven and earth pass away. Luke 16:17 shows that it would be easier for heavens and earth, the universe, to pass away than for the law to fail to accomplish its purpose, its goal.

Gal 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

Our liberty in Christ Jesus is exactly that, being freed from all the old covenant requirements involved in blood ordinances, ritual, and ordinance keeping. The believer can now go out and eat as many buzzards as they like, and it will not affect their salvation in Christ Jesus!

justbyfaith · Oct 16, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
The NT law, not the OT law. The OT law cannot justify (Galatians 3:11) as the NT law can justify.

Neither the OT law nor the NT law will justify a man (Galatians 2:16). We are obedient because we are saved; we are not saved over being obedient. You have the cart before the horse.

Ernest T. Bass said:
Salvation does require keeping the do and don't of the NT law.

False, salvation produces obedience to the word of the Lord; but obedience is not the requirement in order to be saved. If one is truly saved, they will be obedient. Therefore if obedience is absent, we can question whether salvation is really there. But salvation does not come through obedience (Titus 3:5); it comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Jesus said, Ye must be born again; and this can only happen through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Ernest T. Bass said:
Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian a right to be a law breaker.

Indeed; for it is written,

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

However, that we are not under the law means that we are no longer condemned by it (see Romans 8:1) who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. It means that if we mess up or fail because of human weakness, there is grace at the throne of God (Hebrews 4:16). We are governed by the law from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

Ernest T. Bass said:
Therefore one must be obedient to the NT law to BECOME saved and continue to keep it to REMAIN saved.

False. The only way to BECOME saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. He will then change your heart on the inside, so that your inclination is towards obedience. You will then no longer obey because it is required; you will obey because you love the Lord and desire to please Him.

Ernest T. Bass said:
Matthew 5:17-18 Christ took the OT law out of he way, not by destroying it, but took it out of the way by fulfilling it.

He did not take it out of the way. It remains as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). And it is also written on the hearts and minds of all those who trust in Him under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

Ernest T. Bass said:
Therefore not one jot or tittle of the OT law is in effect today.

That is contrary to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18.

Ernest T. Bass said:
Matt 5:17-18 is NOT saying the OT law would last till heaven and earth pass away.

It is, in fact, saying that (Galatians 3:24, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

Ernest T. Bass · Oct 17, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Neither the OT law nor the NT law will justify a man (Galatians 2:16). We are obedient because we are saved; we are not saved over being obedient. You have the cart before the horse.

THe OT could not justify for it required perfect flawless law keeping that the Jew could not do. THe NT gospel justified for it does not require perfection but a simple obedient faith.

YOu have yet to produce one example from the Bible of God first saving a disobediet righteous peren, THEN that person obeys.

ROm 6:16 Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness. You rewrite this to say obedience because one is already righteous. It is you that is puting the cart before the horse.

justbyfaith said:
False, salvation produces obedience to the word of the Lord; but obedience is not the requirement in order to be saved. If one is truly saved, they will be obedient. Therefore if obedience is absent, we can question whether salvation is really there. But salvation does not come through obedience (Titus 3:5); it comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Jesus said, Ye must be born again; and this can only happen through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Indeed; for it is written,

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

However, that we are not under the law means that we are no longer condemned by it (see Romans 8:1) who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. It means that if we mess up or fail because of human weakness, there is grace at the throne of God (Hebrews 4:16). We are governed by the law from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

False. The only way to BECOME saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. He will then change your heart on the inside, so that your inclination is towards obedience. You will then no longer obey because it is required; you will obey because you love the Lord and desire to please Him.

He did not take it out of the way. It remains as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). And it is also written on the hearts and minds of all those who trust in Him under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

That is contrary to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18.

It is, in fact, saying that (Galatians 3:24, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

sigh.....when are you going to show just one example of God first saving a disobedient unrighteous person THEN that person obeys??????????

Whatever Calvinism says we can be assured the Bible says the opposite.

The wind · Oct 17, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I don't normally respond to your posts, @Davy, but your title of this thread attracted me, I will address it now.

As believers in Christ we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), we are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and we are delivered from the law. This means that if we are born again, we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s) and that therefore the law does not apply to us in condemnation.

But that we are born again means that we are subject to the law in our minds (Romans 8:7). Those under the new covenant have the law written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) through faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and is the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

However, scripture is clear that we are regenerated not through works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5 and other scriptures also). It is through faith in Jesus Christ alone that we receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated and renewed.

Sorry, my wife is watching television and it is distracting, so I will cut out now.

Only those who keep the Commandments of God which are the Commandments of Christ receive the Holy Spirit. When a person receives the Holy Spirit it is then that he knows not only will he have eternal life but he is destined to keep the Commandments of Christ. God knows everyone's end from the beginning.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2019

Ernest T. Bass said:
THe NT gospel justified for it does not require perfection but a simple obedient faith.

The NT law does indeed also require perfection, Matthew 5:48.

Ernest T. Bass said:
YOu have yet to produce one example from the Bible of God first saving a disobediet righteous peren, THEN that person obeys.

Again, Romans 4:5 gives the generic example of a person who is ungodly whom the Lord justifies (i.e. declares righteous, saves).

The Lord does not leave them in an ungodly state; but He justifies them while they are still ungodly. That is what the verse says.

Does this not mean that they were unrighteous, then the Lord saved them, and they began to walk in righteousness subsequently.

Now you seem to be wanting to waste my time by saying that I have not answered your questions when I have. I will continue to answer this question the same way every time you bring it up.

Ernest T. Bass said:
ROm 6:16 Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness. You rewrite this to say obedience because one is already righteous. It is you that is puting the cart before the horse.

What does the rest of the Bible teach? It is all over the holy scriptures that we are saved by grace through faith; and not of works. The order is this: faith --> obedience --> righteousness.

Ernest T. Bass said:
sigh.....when are you going to show just one example of God first saving a disobedient unrighteous person THEN that person obeys??????????

I have shown it many times; but you do not receive my testimony.

So I suppose that we are doomed to keep going back and forth on this subject for as long as we both shall frequent these boards. For I consider myself to be a watchman.

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God's Laws Still In Effect

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