Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

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Ernest T. Bass

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No I am not Jewish, that all. As far as the belief that when you sin, that you are separated from Christ and unsaved and have to get saved again...that humorous. Go with that. The idea that some forgotten sin that is not forgiven, can send you to hell...that is sad. Try taking a walk with Christ....when you stumble....He will be there to pick you up.

Being Jewish or not has nothing to do with it, sin separates ANYONE from God including the Christian…."Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5. Why would who was a Christian need to be converted if he can never supposedly be "unconverted"? This erring Christian is called a "sinner" who needs to be saved from "death" which refers to spiritual death which is separation from God.
 

marks

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You seem to be implying that a Christian can be impenitent and unconcerned about his sins, that he can happily continue impenitently to wallow in his sins and still be saved.

Would you mind either . . . quoting where someone has actually said this, or stop throwing it at people who don't think that way?

Because unless someone is actually presenting this, doesn't it make it a Straw Man?
 

Ernest T. Bass

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You reject salvation by faith alone. You hold to a works salvation. You reject the imputation of both sin and righteousness. You will stand before God in your righteousness. Good luck.

Since you reject both the imputation of sin and righteousness, I have a question. Who did Christ die for? I mean, if we need a substitute, and every man was required to bring his substitute, for which person did Christ substitute for. For He was only one Man. He could only die for one person. Maybe it was you. What are the odds?

Stranger

----Yes I certainly, whole heartedly do reject Martin Luther's philosophy of salvation by faith alone and accept the Bible's teaching of salvation by an obedient faith.

----I have never said one can earn salvation by works. I have said, as the Bible shows, that salvation is a free gift that comes with condition of obedient faith. And meeting a condition upon a free gift does not, cannot earn the free gift.

---the idea that righteousness or unrighteousness is transferred from one person to another is of Calvinism not the NT gospel.


Per your question to me:

Christ died for all men, Hebrews 2:9 He tasted death for every man. Since Christ died for all men and therefore God's grace has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) then why are not all men saved? Because all men will not CONDTIONALLY obey Christ, (Hebrews 5:9). Again,salvation/God's grace are CONDITIONAL free gifts and one must meet the condition (0beeience to Christ) in order to receive the free gift. The Bible is fill of examples of those who obeyed God and not a single time does it say their obedience earned them brownie points with God, that their obedience earn them salvation/grace.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Would you mind either . . . quoting where someone has actually said this, or stop throwing it at people who don't think that way?

Because unless someone is actually presenting this, doesn't it make it a Straw Man?
I said he "SEEMS" to be implying that.

He posted "Repented and forgiven!!! And if you forget one....you go straight to hell!! Right?"

Does this not SEEM to you he is implying a Christian can be impenitent of his sins and still be saved? It does to me. Maybe he can clear this statement of his up.
 

Grailhunter

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Being Jewish or not has nothing to do with it, sin separates ANYONE from God including the Christian…."Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5. Why would who was a Christian need to be converted if he can never supposedly be "unconverted"? This erring Christian is called a "sinner" who needs to be saved from "death" which refers to spiritual death which is separation from God.[/Q
Being Jewish or not has nothing to do with it, sin separates ANYONE from God including the Christian…."Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5. Why would who was a Christian need to be converted if he can never supposedly be "unconverted"? This erring Christian is called a "sinner" who needs to be saved from "death" which refers to spiritual death which is separation from God.


How many ways can you be wrong. More than I have patience for....
 

marks

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I said he "SEEMS" to be implying that.

He posted "Repented and forgiven!!! And if you forget one....you go straight to hell!! Right?"

Does this not SEEM to you he is implying a Christian can be impenitent of his sins and still be saved? It does to me. Maybe he can clear this statement of his up.
No it doesn't.

His statement is expressing the point that works based salvation has you losing that salvation for a single forgotten sin. Does God overlook sin? Even one? If we have to have the works to be saved, then who will be saved?

But what does that have to do with some kind of carefree attitude to sin?

Perhaps you can clarify that.

Much love!
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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The church has not advanced one inch with respect to the doctrine of Justification or Righteousness by faith. Everyone has his or her own ideas. The church actually regressed and is more confused and confounded than RCism ever has been. Because it has done away with God's simple clear and unambiguous indisputable Law of Ten Commandments JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET AROUND THE TENTH AND SECOND COMMANDMENTS.
 

justbyfaith

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In one place he says we are all sinners. (1:8-10)

That scripture does not exactly say that we are all sinners; but that we all "have sin". Sin can be rendered dead so that we do not sin; thus we would not be sinners in the sense of being people who generally sin.

You are as righteous as Christ, only by imputation.

By impartation also. 1 John 3:7 speaks of a righteousness that we do, that is even as He is righteous.

The bad things you do, your sins, does not take away from that righteousness. You want this to be so, because that way you put the believer under some sort of law.

I agree with you, that righteousness is imputed to us regardless of our sins. However, this does not mean that righteousness will not also be imparted for those who desire it.

At the time of his baptism in the Jordan, Jesus was a perfect, righteous man.

He was also God in the flesh (John 1:1,14 (kjv)).

As he came up out of the water God’s holy spirit came upon him, and by marvelous signs God acknowledged him to be his Son—not in the sense that he was God’s human Son at the time of his birth, but now in the sense that he was “born again,” “born from the spirit.” (John 3:3-6) Thereafter Jesus was on his way back to the heavenly life he had enjoyed prior to his being sent forth to the earth.

This is a heresy called adoptionism.

Those sufferings culminated in Jesus’ shameful but undeserved death on the torture stake.

"cross". You have just identified yourself as a Jehovah's Witness. Sorry, but that is identified as a cult.

Thereafter God raised him out of death, enabling Jesus to resume life as a spirit creature

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; and those who deny this are of the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Theirs is the prospect of life in the heavens as spirit creatures.

While we will receive glorified, spiritual bodies, it should be clear that we will still be, in a sense, in the flesh; for we will drink wine with Jesus new in the kingdom (the same kind of wine as was served at the Last Supper). And no, it is not that I say this because I want to drink wine; rather it is because this is a proof text for people being in physical bodies once we enter in.

Rather, the white robes in their case represent a temporary standing before God—one that will tide them safely through Armageddon’s judgment execution upon a wicked world and bring them into Christ’s thousand-year reign of peace.

Actually, those who remain on the earth after these have been robed in white will all be condemned, because it is written,

Rev 13:16, And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

and,

Rev 14:9, And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


I don't think you're being honest with yourself if you think you never sin. Paul even said he does what he doesn't want to do and doesn't do what he should; Romans 7.

Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION (see 1 Corinthians 9:22) to identify himself as carnal in order to define carnality to the reader. There are two types of believer; carnal and spiritual (1 Corinthians 3:1). Paul was not carnal himself or else you have a carnal person penning the holy scriptures. But 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that this is only accomplished faithfully by holy men of God.

John says when we sin we have an advocate with the Father...

The actual word in the verse is "if" not "when".
 

justbyfaith

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Had they done the obedient work in submitting to God;s righteousness (Psalms 119:172) commands they would have been saved.

In Romans 10:3, God's righteousness that is to be submitted to is the righteousness of faith (see Philippians 3:9); not the righteousness of the law.

No verse says "faith only" saves. No verse says "faith only" justifies.

However, Romans 4:6 tells us that we can be saved and justified by faith "apart from works".

There is no example of anyone in the BIble who was seen as righteous by God while DOING unrighteousness living in rebellion to God.

How about Aaron the saint of the LORD (Psalms 106:16)? I suppose that you think he did not do unrighteousness when he created the golden calf.

Again, what one is depends on what one does.

What one does depends on what one is.

What one IS (righteous or unrighteous) depends on what one DOES (righteousness or unrighteousness).

What one does (righteousness or unrighteousness) depends on what one is (righteous by faith, or unrighteous).

Faith only is not doing but is nothing more than a mental assent of the mind, a simple acknowledgement of some facts given in the Bible.

I agree that mental assent will never cut it. it must be a heart faith that is unto real righteousness (Romans 10:10).

As unrighteousness cannot be transferred from one person to another (no such thing as original sin)

Actually, there is a powerful example of this in the OT; wherein a man is to lay his hands on the head of the animal before killing it for his atonement. The picture is that he is transferring his sins to the animal.

(no such thing as original sin)

Original sin is sound doctrine. Of course, it is not that we are punishes for Adam's sin; but that rather we inherited the sin nature from Adam and we commit our own sins as the result: for which we will be judged by God.

Can sin, or righteousness, be transferred from one person to another?

Yes.

Exodus 23:7 "Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked."

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Bible does not contradict itself, Romans 4:5 does not contradict Exodus 23:7. God does not justify the ungodly as long as the ungodly live in disobedience to God's will. Yet God will justify the ungodly when the ungodly decides to become obedient to His will and then and only then will the ungodly be justified.

Yes, repentance is important. Yet if there is human weakness and the person remains ungodly because of it, their faith is still counted to them for righteousness. They do not have to work for their righteousness but it is imputed to them through faith.

The word "cannot" does not mean "impossible".

It does.

Yet IF IF IF a conditional word, IF the Christian continues to walk in the light then all his sins will be continually washed away leaving him spotless and blameless. But IF the Christian quits walking in the light then his sins will not be washed away and he will have spot and blame and become lost,

Why would anyone who is truly redeemed, born again, and sealed by the Holy Spirit cease to walk in the light?

Why would who was a Christian need to be converted if he can never supposedly be "unconverted"? This erring Christian is called a "sinner" who needs to be saved from "death" which refers to spiritual death which is separation from God.

The Christian being spoken of is one who previously had a lukewarm, nominal, or shallow faith (mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel). Such people cannot avail themselves of such promises in scripture as John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30.

--the idea that righteousness or unrighteousness is transferred from one person to another is of Calvinism not the NT gospel.

It is biblical doctrine.

Since Christ died for all men and therefore God's grace has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) then why are not all men saved? Because all men will not CONDTIONALLY obey Christ, (Hebrews 5:9).

Hebrews 5:9 speaks of the fact that living faith in Jesus Christ produces an obedient heart. It does not change the biblical fact of salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

All that is required is a living faith in Jesus Christ.

Again,salvation/God's grace are CONDITIONAL free gifts and one must meet the condition (0beeience to Christ) in order to receive the free gift.

Now you changed your belief from salvation by an obedient faith to salvation by obedience.

Obedience does not save anyone (Ephesians 2:9). However the faith that saves is necessarily an obedient faith. We do not receive Jesus Christ as Saviour only but also as Lord.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Justbyfaith said: He was also God in the flesh (John 1:1,14 (kjv)).
I understand there are those that believe that, but I, and yes I'm a Jehovah witness, believe it was the only Begotten Son who came in the flesh. I honestly don't believe that the Apostle John denied that in his gospel.

So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.” (John 1:14) Other Bible translations agree that the Word “became flesh.” (RS; AT; Ro; New English) This is far different from saying that he clothed himself with flesh as in a materialization or as in an incarnation. It means he became what man was—flesh and blood—that he might be one of us humans. Search John’s writings as much as we can, yet we do not once find that John says that the Word became a God-Man, that is, a combination of God and man.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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BARNEY BRIGHT said:
As he came up out of the water God’s holy spirit came upon him, and by marvelous signs God acknowledged him to be his Son—not in the sense that he was God’s human Son at the time of his birth, but now in the sense that he was “born again,” “born from the spirit.” (John 3:3-6) Thereafter Jesus was on his way back to the heavenly life he had enjoyed prior to his being sent forth to the earth.


Justbyfaith said: This a heresy called adoptionism.
You and anyone else can believe that, that's your right but you nor anyone else's intimidation tactics work on me. Majority of the religious leaders didn't agreed with Jesus, even saying horrible things about him, like he was the ruler of the demons. So obviously these religious leaders believed what he said was from the demons. The scriptures tell us not to think more of ourselves like more than our king Jesus Christ. So however way they treated him or said about him we would be treated like him. So believe what you want. You are and everyone else are just imperfect humans like everyone else. I disagree with what you said about what I posted to be a heresy.
 
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Helen

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And that is exactly what imputed righteousness means.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)

Those who have wholeheartedly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ are declared by God to be as perfect as Christ Himself (apart from any merits or works of their own). If that were not so, none could enter Heaven. To refuse to believe this means to refuse to believe God, which is the same as unbelief.


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Helen

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I'm so very glad this is not true!

At least, I know it's not true in me. And I know the Bible says that God will never give up on me.

But I don't believe this for minute, that God will give us maybe a few chances to reform, and then just lets us do it ourselves.

This doesn't even begin to address our relationship with our Creator. I can't do anything on my own! And He already gave to me Jesus, and says He'll likewise give to me all else. Is that not true?

And if God is helping me, and I can't pull it together, what hope do I have when God abandons me??

But I know He never will, and I know that He will continue to sanctify me, so that even those things that take many more years to fix, He's going to fix those too.

I've very curious, why would you think God would abandon you to your own efforts after you've been born from Him, His child?

Much love!


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Helen

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You don't have to like imputed righteousness. But it is the way it is. Scripture is clear as many have pointed out. The only reason anyone denies it, is because it grates against their self-righteousness.

If you want to stand before God in your own righteousness, go ahead.

God can deal with sins. He makes no provision for your righteousness. As I asked another, what is your righteousness to God? Answer: (Is. 64:6) Filthy rags. That is your righteousness, not your sins. Now go stand before God and Christ in your own righteousness.

Stranger

Yay!! Well said :)

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Barney said:
Thereafter God raised him out of death, enabling Jesus to resume life as a spirit creature.
Justbyfaith said:
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; and those who deny this are of the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
1John 4:1-3 and 2John 1:7 says that those who deny Jesus Christ coming in the flesh is the Antichrist. The scriptures also show us that Jesus is the Son of God. The scripture John 3:16 and many others shows us that God sent his son. So 1John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7 tells me that those who deny that it was the only Begotten Son that became flesh belongs to the Antichrist. I have always believed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, that it was the Son of God that God sent to us, that it was the Son of God who died for mankind and it was the Son of God that God resurrected three days after his death and as long as I exercise faith in this loving act that God and his Son has done I am saved. What you and others wish to believe is your right but I don't agree with you which is my right
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Barney said:
Theirs is the prospect of life in the heavens as spirit creatures.
Justbyfaith said:
While we will receive glorified, spiritual bodies, it should be clear that we will still be, in a sense, in the flesh; for we will drink wine with Jesus new in the kingdom (the same kind of wine as was served at the Last Supper). And no, it is not that I say this because I want to drink wine; rather it is because this is a proof text for people being in physical bodies once we enter in.
↑Jesus informed the disciples that the wine he had drunk (at this Passover preceding the Memorial) was the last of the product of the vine that he would drink “until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.” ([URL='https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1200002773/8/0']Mt 26:29) Since he would not be drinking literal wine in heaven, he obviously had reference to what wine sometimes symbolized in the Scriptures, namely, joy. Being together in the Kingdom was what they looked forward to with highest anticipation. (Ro 8:23; 2Co 5:2) King David wrote, in song, of Jehovah’s provision of “wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice,” and his son Solomon said: “Wine itself makes life rejoice.”—Ps 104:15; Ec 10:19.[/URL]

According to the inspired Scriptures, Jesus Christ was not raised to life in the flesh. At 1 Peter 3:18 we read that he was ‘put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.’ (New World Translation; American Standard Version; C. B. Williams translation) Other scriptures confirm that Jesus simply could not have been raised bodily as a man of flesh and blood.

It was God’s purpose for his Son to resume heavenly life and not to continue living as a man on earth. This necessitated Jesus’ being raised as a spirit person, for persons of flesh and blood cannot live in the heavens. The apostle Paul wrote: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”—1 Cor. 15:50.

In the case of the man Jesus Christ, his flesh was a barrier that prevented access to the heavenly realm. Jesus’ “flesh” is, therefore, spoken of at Hebrews 10:20 as being represented by the “curtain” that separated the Holy from the Most Holy in the tabernacle. Before he could enter heaven, the real “Most Holy,” Jesus had to give up his fleshly existence and receive spirit nature. His body of flesh would have been a barrier to his going beyond the “curtain” as a spirit person.

Another factor that should not be overlooked is that the goat and the bull offered on the day of atonement represented the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Law, which prescribed these sacrifices, served as “a shadow of the things to come.” (Col. 2:17; Heb. 10:1) As we know, a shadow gives the general shape or design of the reality that casts it. Hence, for the shadow to be fulfilled in the reality, Jesus could not have taken back his sacrificed body of flesh and blood, since the bodies of those sacrificial victims were thoroughly disposed of by burning. (Heb. 13:11, 12) So it logically follows that Jehovah God disposed of the sacrificed body of his Son. Moreover, if Jesus had taken back his body of flesh, his sacrifice would have been temporary, without continuing atoning value.

That Jesus was not raised in the flesh explains why two of his disciples and Mary Magdalene did not recognize him by his postresurrection physical appearances. They only discerned who he was by what he said or did.—Luke 24:13-31; John 20:14, 15.

True, for the benefit of doubting Thomas, Jesus did appear with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. (John 20:24-29) Yet, even in connection with that manifestation, there is proof that Jesus must have momentarily materialized a physical body of flesh. An eyewitness, the apostle John, reported: “Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst.” (John 20:26) Manifestly, the apostle John would not have made a point of this if Jesus had simply opened the door and then physically entered the room. Evidently Jesus appeared suddenly in the midst of the disciples; the locked door did not obstruct his entry. This was something a man of flesh could not have done. But it is something that spirit persons in materializing could do.

So I disagree that Jesus has a body of flesh, instead he was resurrected a powerful spiritual creature.
 

justbyfaith

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Search John’s writings as much as we can, yet we do not once find that John says that the Word became a God-Man, that is, a combination of God and man.

The Bible tells us that the Word was God; and that He became a Man.

I disagree with what you said about what I posted to be a heresy.

I assumed as much; I will pray for you that the Holy Ghost convicts you over your believing and teaching heresy.

I have always believed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God,

No, you haven't. For in the following is the definition of what it means that Jesus is the Son of God:

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Not only is Jesus the Wonderful Counsellor (the Holy Spirit); but He is the everlasting Father.

I will also hold you to the kjv on the following (since JW's accept it as inspired), in that Jesus is declared to be the mighty God, compare this scripture with Psalms 50:1:

Psa 50:1, [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] The mighty God, even the LORD (i.e. Jehovah), hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Since he would not be drinking literal wine in heaven, he obviously had reference to what wine sometimes symbolized in the Scriptures, namely, joy.

Nope, Jesus was referring specifically to the kind of wine that they were drinking at the Last Supper.

According to the inspired Scriptures, Jesus Christ was not raised to life in the flesh.

The following scripture would teach otherwise:

Jhn 2:19, Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Jhn 2:20, Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Jhn 2:21, But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus said that if they destroyed "this temple" that He would raise it up in three days.

This temple, that He spoke of, was His physical body.

He would raise up His physical body in three days.

Consider also the following:

Luk 24:39, Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus became no spirit-creature after He rose from the dead.

The NLT clarifies:

Luk 24:39, Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it’s really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don’t have bodies, as you see that I do.”

Jesus is the Son of God in that He, in His human body, is unified with God the Father so that God the Father is the Spirit of Jesus. God the Father within Him is indeed God; and He is also the Person of Jesus Christ.

Scripture:

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Mat 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What name is that, that Jesus told us to baptize in? The apostle Peter was not being disobedient when he said:

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Way better than being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the committee.