Calvinism

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Are you referring to Servetus? If so, I suggest you read up a bit on the history because you are missing some facts.

John, John, John. Seriously? Explained away or ignored like Calvin's doctrine of Baptism?

I do not know of any reformed Baptists, myself included, that ignore what Calvin taught on Baptism. But here is the thing, WE DO NOT FOLLOW CALVIN. We follow Scripture. Big difference. It is for that reason I really don't call myself a Calvinist out of allegiance to Calvin, but only because when people say Calvinist they are, most of the time, only talking about his soteriology. To try and lump a Reformed Baptist in with all of Calvin's teachings is absurd and you know it.

I do not mean Calvin's teaching on baptism but Calvin's view as a whole on anti-Baptist doctrines. I know that Calvinism does not mean disciples of Calvin to Calvinistic Baptists (it means disciples of select philosophies of Calvin and those who followed in that tradition....although I doubt Calvinists would define it that way).

Do you believe that our forgiveness is based on God's work of redemption in God punishing Christ instead of punishing us for our sins, thereby paying our sin debt? If so, can you provide a passage stating this (I'm sure there must be as it would be a foundational doctrine)? If not, what would you say to the Calvinists who may be tempted to hold that view?

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I do not mean Calvin's teaching on baptism but Calvin's view as a whole on anti-Baptist doctrines. I know that Calvinism does not mean disciples of Calvin to Calvinistic Baptists (it means disciples of select philosophies of Calvin and those who followed in that tradition....although I doubt Calvinists would define it that way).

Do you believe that our forgiveness is based on God's work of redemption in God punishing Christ instead of punishing us for our sins, thereby paying our sin debt? If so, can you provide a passage stating this (I'm sure there must be as it would be a foundational doctrine)? If not, what would you say to the Calvinists who may be tempted to hold that view?

All of Scripture. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23, Genesis 3). Christ died for our sins. Peter says that he bore our sins and died on the tree. He took the Penalty John.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
All of Scripture. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23, Genesis 3). Christ died for our sins. Peter says that he bore our sins and died on the tree. He took the Penalty John.

"All of Scripture" does not work (that is what other religions, including many cults, claim).

For simplicity, please quote the passage and put in bold where Scripture states that our forgiveness is based on God's work of redemption in God punishing Christ for our sins instead of punishing us, thereby paying our sin debt.

What you will find is more than one element in your theology is not actually in Scripture.

When it comes to essential doctrines (like redemption) we HAVE to stick close to Scripture and avoid adding philosophies, words, phrases, and ideas into our conclusions as best we can. If you cannot stick with Scripture then perhaps it is not somewhere you should have "theologically journeyed" in the first place.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
"All of Scripture" does not work (that is what other religions, including many cults, claim).

For simplicity, please quote the passage and put in bold where Scripture states that our forgiveness is based on God's work of redemption in God punishing Christ for our sins instead of punishing us, thereby paying our sin debt.

What you will find is more than one element in your theology is not actually in Scripture.

When it comes to essential doctrines (like redemption) we HAVE to stick close to Scripture and avoid adding philosophies, words, phrases, and ideas into our conclusions as best we can. If you cannot stick with Scripture then perhaps it is not somewhere you should have "theologically journeyed" in the first place.

Sorry, all of Scripture does work. And I did put forth passages. You can't isolate and cherry pick John and that is exactly what you are trying to do by ignoring "all of Scripture."

Enoch111 · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Here is the problem. You assume that world means every individual person all the time. It doesn't. How do I know? I will prove it to you.

I am not assuming anything. The context, as well as the lexicons and concordances, as well as Gospel truth AS A WHOLE tell us that God wants all humanity to be saved. Numerous Scriptures support that.

But it is Calvinism which deliberately distorts the truth and tries to make things mean what they do not. It is a sad excuse for the true Gospel of Grace. However you will never admit it since that would mean giving up a major delusion. And neither the Calvinists nor the Catholics like to give up their delusions. And strangely enough Calvinism has its roots in Catholic doctrines.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Sorry, all of Scripture does work. And I did put forth passages. You can't isolate and cherry pick John and that is exactly what you are trying to do by ignoring "all of Scripture."

I will rephrase - none of Scripture states what you have found in all of Scripture. This should tell you something about your vision.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. Thomas Hardy

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

Enoch111 said:
I am not assuming anything. The context, as well as the lexicons and concordances, as well as Gospel truth AS A WHOLE tell us that God wants all humanity to be saved. Numerous Scriptures support that.

But it is Calvinism which deliberately distorts the truth and tries to make things mean what they do not. It is a sad excuse for the true Gospel of Grace. However you will never admit it since that would mean giving up a major delusion. And neither the Calvinists nor the Catholics like to give up their delusions. And strangely enough Calvinism has its roots in Catholic doctrines.

Name one verse in context that says this.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I will rephrase - none of Scripture states what you have found in all of Scripture. This should tell you something about your vision.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. Thomas Hardy

I have noticed something John, you are ignoring my actual argument. Do you care to actually interact with the fact that the penalty for sin is death and that is what Christ did?

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
I have noticed something John, you are ignoring my actual argument. Do you care to actually interact with the fact that the penalty for sin is death and that is what Christ did?

I have (but to be fair, perhaps prior to you entering the conversation).

The wages of sin is death. Scripture tellls us that through sin death entered the world (death was a consequence or "wage", something earned because of something else).

Jesus did bear our sins, became a curse fir us, shared in our humanity, and experienced the wages of sin.

There is a debt under the Law (if righteousness is based on divine justice we are found wanting).

When you speak of a "debt" do you mean a righteousnessunder the law (where we are found lacking) or do you mean the wages of sin? I am not sure by your use if extra-biblical iseas and blending of principles exactly what you are referring to.

It would help if you's just print out the verse and highlight where it states God punished Christ instead of us. That'd be a start anyway.

Thanks.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I have (but to be fair, perhaps prior to you entering the conversation).

The wages of sin is death. Scripture tellls us that through sin death entered the world (death was a consequence or "wage", something earned because of something else).

Jesus did bear our sins, became a curse fir us, shared in our humanity, and experienced the wages of sin.

There is a debt under the Law (if righteousness is based on divine justice we are found wanting).

When you speak of a "debt" do you mean a righteousnessunder the law (where we are found lacking) or do you mean the wages of sin? I am not sure by your use if extra-biblical iseas and blending of principles exactly what you are referring to.

It would help if you's just print out the verse and highlight where it states God punished Christ instead of us. That'd be a start anyway.

Thanks.

They payment is the penalty! That is the punishment! You try to play word games but guess what, it doesn't make you right.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 17, 2019

Speaking of being honest...send me on PM the t
Post where you said I wanted to censor people, you have a screenshot...I need to see that

Preacher4Truth · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
They payment is the penalty! That is the punishment! You try to play word games but guess what, it doesn't make you right.

Exactly.

Enoch111 · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Name one verse in context that says this.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world*. (John 1:29)

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY: WORLD = WHOLE HUMAN RACE
"Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith."

Even John Calvin could not distort what John the Baptizer said. And had the Calvinists simply believed what was stated here -- and acknowledge by Calvin -- they would not have invented Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace.

Now this same word *world* is used in John 3:16,17, and here is what it means in John 1:29 as confirmed by Thayer:

*Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος

5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets)

Now the real question is whether you are prepared to entirely renounce Calvinism based upon Calvin's commentary for this verse and its significance for the Gospel, which was meant to go out into all the world and be preached to every creature. And God will hold you accountable if you reject this truth.

Preacher4Truth · Oct 17, 2019

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
Speaking of being honest...send me on PM the t
Post where you said I wanted to censor people, you have a screenshot...I need to see that

Censoring others has never been part of your character, dialog. He's projecting, bro.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
They payment is the penalty! That is the punishment! You try to play word games but guess what, it doesn't make you right.

Now you are speaking nonsense. I just paid for a burger for lunch. You think the restaurant was punishing me?????

I asked you to provide Scripture stating what you believe is implied. There is, of course, none. I think (hope) you realize this. There is a reason Calvinism was absent from Christianity for 15 centuries and it was not an absence of Scripture.

If you ever find a passage stating what you believe God intended to say but only implied then we can discuss the topic. Until then, I have to stick with what is actually writen in Scripture.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Now you are speaking nonsense. I just paid for a burger for lunch. You think the restaurant was punishing me?????

I asked you to provide Scripture stating what you believe is implied. There is, of course, none. I think (hope) you realize this. There is a reason Calvinism was absent from Christianity for 15 centuries and it was not an absence of Scripture.

If you ever find a passage stating what you believe God intended to say but only implied then we can discuss the topic. Until then, I have to stick with what is actually writen in Scripture.

I've given you the Scripture, you choose to ignore it. And not all payments are the same. For a burger your are paying for a type of merchandise. If you are a criminal you make a payment of a very different nature. Stop the word games John.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
I've given you the Scripture, you choose to ignore it. And not all payments are the same. For a burger your are paying for a type of merchandise. If you are a criminal you make a payment of a very different nature. Stop the word games John.

I read the passages. Perhaps you misunderstood. I was not asking for the passages through which you would weave your theology. I was asking for passages stating what you believe. That way we can discuss the actual text of Scripture and not your ideas about the topic.

Here is an example. I believe that both condemning the righteous and justifying the wicked are alike abominations to God. Here is why:

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 17:15

Now you can try with the idea that on the Cross God was punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

Again, until you are able to provide verses stating your beliefs by highlighting the actual words there is really nothing to discuss.

CharismaticLady · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Are you referring to Servetus? If so, I suggest you read up a bit on the history because you are missing some facts.

Was he one of the 58 people Calvin had killed?

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I read the passages. Perhaps you misunderstood. I was not asking for the passages through which you would weave your theology. I was asking for passages stating what you believe. That way we can discuss the actual text of Scripture and not your ideas about the topic.

Again, until you are able to provide verses stating your beliefs by highlighting the actual words there is really nothing to discuss.

That's not how good theology works. With that mindset you shouldn't believe in the Trinity either.

CharismaticLady · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
So this is fake news. A false charge without evidence.

Have you ever heard of the Gift of Discernment? Maybe you haven't.

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