Yes, when a person does baptize a person in the water, what he says and does, and what the one being baptized says and does, is not so important as what is happening in their hearts. Isn't it always so with the things of God?
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What does anyone consider truths essential for followers of Jesus?
- Thread starter amadeus
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Absurd ... really? Well let's take a look...
Isaiah 9:6 foretold, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his NAME shall be called Wonderful, counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly tells us... "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" Therefore, compare the following references:
The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3-10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour.Isaiah 43:10-11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever.Luke 1:33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.
How can Jesus be Both the Father and the Son? Jesus himself addressed this very question...
Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? [42] And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [43] Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. [44] David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? [36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. [37] David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
So, is this also Perplexing to you...
Jesus is the First and the Last.
He is the Alpha and the Omega.
He is the Lion of Judah and the Lamb.
When talking with the Jews, he said...
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
God bless!
@amadeus
I think a list of essential doctrines can be found in the Nicene Creed, which is accepted by the owners of this forum.
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
o judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,.
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I think a list of essential doctrines can be found in the Nicene Creed, which is accepted by the owners of this forum.
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
o judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,.
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Amadeus said: Yes indeed! It brings us back to hearing His voice and paying attention to what we hear.
I was speaking of 'essentials', but you added the word, 'doctrines'. Is this necessarily the same thing? Can something be essential to a person's walk with God without being a doctrine describable to every person using exactly the same words?
@BARNEY BRIGHT
What is the essential thing to be certain we are following God rather than the interpretation of some man or group of men who may have missed the Way?
You say Bible counsel can guide us, but is it not God who needs to guide us? There are a whole bunch of churches and people out there teaching and preaching the Bible who contradict each other often based on their interpretation of the what is written in the Bible.
What is the essential thing to be certain we are following God rather than the interpretation of some man or group of men who may have missed the Way?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
2 Timothy 3:16,17- All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
You believe this or you don't, it's called faith.
I do believe that the scriptures were written by men as they were inspired by God to write.
I also believe that without the same inspiration from God no man, not you or me or anyone else, can understand what he reads in the scriptures. He is like the Ethiopian eunuch who needed a man, Philip, filled with the Holy Spirit, to guide him through what he had been reading.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
Do you think it is possible today for people to hear God's Voice the way Adam, Noah, Abraham and others did?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I think God speaks to us through his word today. “Your Grand Instructor will no longer hide himself, and your eyes must become eyes seeing your Grand Instructor. And your own ears will hear a word behind you saying: ‘This is the way. Walk in it, you people.’” Jehovah watches over our progress and lovingly corrects us if we take a false step. (Isaiah 30:20, 21; Galatians 6:1) 2Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is inspired of God*+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving,+ for setting things straight,*+ for disciplining+ in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent,+ completely equipped* for every good work.+
when we turn to God’s Word for guidance, we are reading words that were recorded thousands of years ago. They are coming from behind us, as it were, in the stream of time. Yet, they are just as relevant today as they were the day they were written. Bible counsel can guide us in our day-to-day decisions, and it can help us to map out the course of our life over the years to come. (Psalm 119:105) When we earnestly seek out such counsel and apply it, then Jehovah is our Guide.
How can people be sure they have the right understanding of the Bible then? We see all kinds of interpretations. What's going on?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The scriptures are quite clear, it's people's beliefs and their interpretation of the scriptures that's the problem with most people. Let's take the word, "Soul" in the scriptures. When speaking to most people, they say that people have a soul that either goes to heaven or hell at death, but the scriptures doesn't use the word, "Soul" like that. Whenever the scriptures use the word Soul what it's talking about is a oxygen breathing flesh and blood creature whether it be an animal or human. The scriptures never use the word Soul as being something inside you that separates at death, you'll never see it used that way in the scriptures. This is what I mean about the scriptures being clear. Like I said the word Soul in the scriptures never use this word as something inside a person that separates at death. The scriptures say you are a soul, not that you have one. You believe what the scriptures say or you don't.
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You sure about all that? I would say we "have" various aspects. "We" are none of them but "have" them.
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
I agree that the word often is used however to mean living people. I think most people don't know the difference between these things unless the Word separates them.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The essential truths for followers of Jesus is the Commandments of God: which is to believe on Jesus Christ and to love the children of God, which is fulfilled by doing the Commandments of Christ. Just as all the law of Moses is fulfilled by love, so are all the Commandments of Christ.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
As used in the Bible, the heart stands for the seat of motivation and also of the emotions. This is the figurative heart, which actually means our innermost self. At 1 Peter 3:4 it is described as “the secret person of the heart” (NW), “the hidden person of the heart” (Revised Standard Version), “your inner self” (New International Version). So it is with ‘all the heart’ that we are under command to love Jehovah God. We are also commanded to love Jehovah God with all our soul, with the whole of our being. This calls upon us to love the one living and true God, the Almighty, with all our vital force, directing all our energies to the doing of the revealed will of God and the full performance of his work during this “conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3) In addition to this, there must be a loving of the God of the Bible with all our “mind,” our mental faculties.—Mark 12:29-31.
The point in this scripture, is that just as the word heart is about your figurative heart and not your fleshly organism, the word Soul is about loving God with our whole being. This scripture when speaking of Soul, isn't speaking about something that separates at death. As I said the scriptures doesn't speak of Soul that way.
But who knows what is what? Isn't that part of the problem? Few people come to know what that "spiritual heart" is. I don't think it is the seat of the emotions. All too often our emotions are the result of that unruly "soul" that we share with animals -- things like lust, anger and all the other carnal things. Some people's minds also run riot, out of control. People may want to love God with their hearts but can't get soul and mind under control.
As for the soul separating? It usually did not with people in the Old Testament. Most of the time, it fell asleep. You may not believe it, but some souls do leave their bodies even before the bodies die. There are some passages in the Bible that people may not know how to interpret for sure until they've seen things for themselves. Their teachers may say something, but if the teachers haven't seen things for themselves, it's still the blind leading the blind.
That identification of the soul with the body is not a good one. If people think the soul and body are the same thing, or if they think the soul cannot leave at death, it doesn't. It stays tied to the body, asleep.
Jonah traveled outside of his body. He said he was in sheol.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
As said before, in the Bible, the heart stands for the seat of motivation and also of the emotions. This is the figurative heart, which actually means our innermost self. At 1 Peter 3:4 it is described as “the secret person of the heart” (NW), “the hidden person of the heart” (Revised Standard Version), "your inner self” (New International Version).
When we talk about the figurative heart, motivation is what's important here, what motivates a person and if you think emotions are not tied to what motivates you, you're wrong. That's why when it comes to some people who allow lust, anger and other carnal emotions rule them then they're showing you who they truly are, what truly motivates them at that point in time of their lives. It doesn't mean they can't change, it means they must ask God to forgive them and help them. Then they need to study God's word. God's word isn't unimportant, 2Timothy 3:16,17 tells us that everything we need is in the scriptures.
Oh, absolutely the impure heart creates impure thoughts and nasty emotions. Those can get so out of hand, the real person (the innermost self) is overwhelmed and can't get control over them. I think that is where Jesus plays an important role. First we have to repent -- as you rightly say -- and then Jesus can help us. We have to find it in our hearts to want to change and regret our sins. And realize too that we don't know how to do it by ourselves.
How did they hear Him? Perhaps each one in a different way, but hear they did and when they obeyed God they were then on His side. I cannot speak for everyone else, but usually I don't hear a physically audible voice from God. I say usually, because sometimes He puts His words in the mouth of the man and I do hear them with the natural ear. Normally the hearing is only in my heart. A very few times long ago I heard Him through a dream.
Yes I agree. In fact, as you know, Paul gave warning regarding this very thing...
1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Regardless of Paul's concern, we have THOUSANDS of denominations, many of whom use the same version of the Holy Bible, but with various beliefs, teaching contrary one to another.
God bless!
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