Calvinism

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Have you ever heard of the Gift of Discernment? Maybe you haven't.

Good discernment has evidence when it makes a charge.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
That's not how good theology works. With that mindset you shouldn't believe in the Trinity either.

No. There is a difference. Scripture tells us God is Spirit and that the Spirit is the Spirit of God. Scripture tells us the Father is God. And Scripture tells us that Jesus is God. I can provide a verse stating each. (If you mean an expounded doctrine of the Trinity then you may be right, but then it is also philosophical).

You cannot provide a verse stating that God punished Jesus on the Cross instead of punishing us. You are like John Gill trying to prove that Michael the Archangel is Jesus pre-incarnate. You may believe it, and you may be able to defend. But you cannot defend it via Scripture.

I am glad you at least have come to recognize that. We all have different criteria for holding our beliefs. Some look for affirmation in a denomination or church. Some in commentaries. You in philosophical arguments and tradition. For me, the "test" is Scripture. Your view does not pass the test of Scripture. That does not mean I do not want you to hold it. That is not for me to decide. But it does mean I will not hold it. It is too important a doctrine to leave to religious philosophies and ideas some people have come to see as implied in Scripture.

As you cannot provide, by your own admission, a biblical text stating what you believe you and I have no room to discuss the topic as we do not have a common ground for testing doctrine. I will always keep asking for Scripture and you will always keep telling me what you believe is implied in Scripture. It would be fruitless (it would be like me holding the Bible as an authority in a discussion with an atheist).

The only common ground we could possibly have would be for me to set aside the text of Scripture to discuss Christian philosophy with you. At one time, I would have been willing, and perhaps on some topics I may still. But not on this one.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I am glad you at least have come to recognize that. We all have different criteria for holding our beliefs.

I've not come to recognize what you are saying because what you are saying isn't reality.

John Caldwell said:
It is too important a doctrine to leave to religious philosophies and ideas some people have come to see as implied in Scripture.

It's not philosphy. It's plain and simple. The penalty for sin is death. What happened to Christ on the cross? He bore our sin and died. He took the penalty that we should have received.

CharismaticLady · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Good discernment has evidence when it makes a charge.

What about the book did you like?

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
What about the book did you like?

I've not read it which is why I am asking for your evidence of your ridiculous charge.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 17, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
Censoring others has never been part of your character, dialog. He's projecting, bro.

I had started a thread saying I hate censorship, perhaps with the exception of profanity.
When I reported a post saying they were questioning the salvation of the Calvinists which if against board rules.
Next thing I was blocked. There was supposed to be a sceen shot John posted.I would like to see what I posted, and the screenshot

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 17, 2019

Direct substitution....for the elect.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Reprobates being cast into second death experience the wrath of God without mercy....
Jesus our Mediator and surety took it upon Himself.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
I've not come to recognize what you are saying because what you are saying isn't reality.

It's not philosphy. It's plain and simple. The penalty for sin is death. What happened to Christ on the cross? He bore our sin and died. He took the penalty that we should have received.

LOL....

David, you can't have it both ways.

Either the idea that on the cross God was punishing Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us so as to pay our sin-debt is in the text of Scripture or it is a product of systematic theology. If it is derived from systematic theology (which incorporates Scripture, human reasoning, philosophy, historic development, etc.) then it is different from what is actually in Scripture.

Look, we went to the same university. Did they stop going over the definitions of theology - Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Christology, etc.?

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
LOL....

David, you can't have it both ways.

Either the idea that on the cross God was punishing Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us so as to pay our sin-debt is in the text of Scripture or it is a product of systematic theology. If it is derived from systematic theology (which incorporates Scripture, human reasoning, philosophy, historic development, etc.) then it is different from what is actually in Scripture.

Look, we went to the same university. Did they stop going over the definitions of theology - Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Christology, etc.?

I showed you the Scriptures. You reject them. That's fine but you can't say they aren't in there. You don't want to look at the whole of Scripture. You insist that I have to find a verse that says it all. That's absurd John and you know it. Not to mention that is horrible interpretation skills. We did go to the same university so you know I am right.

John Caldwell · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
I showed you the Scriptures. You reject them. That's fine but you can't say they aren't in there. You don't want to look at the whole of Scripture. You insist that I have to find a verse that says it all. That's absurd John and you know it. Not to mention that is horrible interpretation skills. We did go to the same university so you know I am right.

David,

You and I can talk to one another, but don't be foolish. You provided Romans 6:23 which states (as I pointed out) that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. If you interpret that to read "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" then I question your literacy.

You also provided the entire chapter of Genesis 3, which contains absolutely no verse about God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.
It speaks of the curse, but that is Adam's toil and the wages of sin (death).

What you are calling "interpretation skills" is eisegesis.

Nowhere in Scripture are the words that would be interpreted "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" - so it is not a matter of interpretation. It is an issue of religious theology and human wisdom that shifts salvation from a Christ-centered redemption to a humanistic philosophy.

Again, stay where you are or move towards Scripture. That is up to you. You are a Christian and your relationship with the Word is not of my concern. We hold very different ideas about doctrinal authority.

Just keep in mind interpretation applies to a text, not lessons you believe implied therein. Yours is NOT interpretation because there are no passages that can possibly be interpreted that God was punishing Christ instead of punishing us. That is why I offered you a chance to provide a text. None exists.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

And again John you are either being willfully ignorant or just absurd.

John Caldwell said:
You and I can talk to one another, but don't be foolish. You provided Romans 6:23 which states (as I pointed out) that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. If you interpret that to read "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" then I question your literacy.

Notice I did not say what you claim. Those verses show that the penalty for sin is death.

John Caldwell said:
You also provided the entire chapter of Genesis 3, which contains absolutely no verse about God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.
It speaks of the curse, but that is Adam's toil and the wages of sin (death).

Again, I was showing that the PENALTY for sin is death.

John Caldwell said:
What you are calling "interpretation skills" is eisegesis.

No, I merely presented exactly what the text says. You are the one insisting on one single verse and that is not how this works.

John Caldwell said:
Nowhere in Scripture are the words that would be interpreted "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" - so it is not a matter of interpretation. It is an issue of religious theology and human wisdom that shifts salvation from a Christ-centered redemption to a humanistic philosophy.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say God is three yet one but you believe that. Your double standard on this is appalling.

We know FROM SCRIPTURE that the penalty of sin is death. What price did Christ pay? Death. THEREFORE, yes, Christ did take the penalty for our sin in our place. You cannot deny this, this is an essential of the faith. Why are you so dead set against it? I have two questions for you.

1. Was in fact the penalty of sin death according to Scripture?
2. Did Christ die in order to pay for OUR sin.

If the answer to both of those questions are 'yes' then you have no choice but to say Christ took the punishment for our sin.

Mjh29 · Oct 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
He did have someone killed because they didn't believe what he taught. Willie knows. But I'm sure that information is not uncovered in your church.

This is a misrepresented story.

But even if it wasn't, I have documented evidence of you sinning; right here on the site in black and white. There's no escaping from the fact that this "sinless Christianity" you are peddling is indeed a farse.

Mjh29 · Oct 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
It would have to be a lie to slander. I don't lie. But you do about what Jesus accomplished, but just don't know any better because that is what Calvinism teaches.

Really? Explain to me how calling me stupid is "edifying speech"?

~ Ephesians 4:29

Mjh29 · Oct 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
If I said that for real, I would be as dumb as a Calvinist

Compare this to Ephesians 4:29

Waiting on him · Oct 17, 2019

John Caldwell said:
David,

You and I can talk to one another, but don't be foolish. You provided Romans 6:23 which states (as I pointed out) that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. If you interpret that to read "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" then I question your literacy.

You also provided the entire chapter of Genesis 3, which contains absolutely no verse about God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.
It speaks of the curse, but that is Adam's toil and the wages of sin (death).

What you are calling "interpretation skills" is eisegesis.

Nowhere in Scripture are the words that would be interpreted "God punished Jesus instead of punishing us" - so it is not a matter of interpretation. It is an issue of religious theology and human wisdom that shifts salvation from a Christ-centered redemption to a humanistic philosophy.

Again, stay where you are or move towards Scripture. That is up to you. You are a Christian and your relationship with the Word is not of my concern. We hold very different ideas about doctrinal authority.

Just keep in mind interpretation applies to a text, not lessons you believe implied therein. Yours is NOT interpretation because there are no passages that can possibly be interpreted that God was punishing Christ instead of punishing us. That is why I offered you a chance to provide a text. None exists.

Isaiah 53:10-12 KJV
[10] Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The bruise here the Lord in my opinion is taking credit for.
Tecarta Bible

Waiting on him · Oct 17, 2019

Mjh29 said:
This is a misrepresented story.

But even if it wasn't, I have documented evidence of you sinning; right here on the site in black and white. There's no escaping from the fact that this "sinless Christianity" you are peddling is indeed a farse.

It’s beginning to go way beyond that, she’s accused someone of murder that she has no facts on, says Willie knows.
If Mr Calvin is part of the brethren and she’s his accuser, well what ever

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

Waiting on him said:
It’s beginning to go way beyond that, she’s accused someone of murder that she has no facts on, says Willie knows.
If Mr Calvin is part of the brethren and she’s his accuser, well what ever

Not to mention, why do people get stuck on Calvin? I don't follow Calvin, I follow Scripture.

Mjh29 · Oct 17, 2019

David Taylor said:
Not to mention, why do people get stuck on Calvin? I don't follow Calvin, I follow Scripture.

I'm a Presbyterian, and I don't follow Calvin either. I follow Scriptures. Now, Calvin was a firm student of the Word, so my beliefs do line up with his in many ways, but still; if Calvin is ever proven wrong from the Word, I will agree with the Word 100% of the time.

reformed1689 · Oct 17, 2019

Mjh29 said:
I'm a Presbyterian, and I don't follow Calvin either. I follow Scriptures. Now, Calvin was a firm student of the Word, so my beliefs do line up with his in many ways, but still; if Calvin is ever proven wrong from the Word, I will agree with the Word 100% of the time.

Yeah the point is they use Calvin as a Red Herring rather than dealing with the actual teachings of Scripture.

Waiting on him · Oct 17, 2019

Psalm 118:16-20 KJV
[16] The right hand of the Lord is exalted: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly. [17] I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord. [18] The Lord hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. [19] Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord : [20] This gate of the Lord, into which the righteous shall enter.

This in my opinion is Jesus acceptance of the whipping He’s received of the Lord.

Tecarta Bible

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