The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Mungo

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ccc 1475 says you expiate your sin in purgatory. Expiation has to do with sacrifice. Its part of the definition of propitiation found in Romans 3:25. Jesus is our propitiation, not you. This is atonement, not simply 'purifying' yourself. Catholics need to brush up on their definitions. By this your church teaches you can leave this life with sin not atoned for by Jesus and still make it to heaven. Thats pure hogwash! But thats your church not mine.

If you looked at the context of CCC 1475 instead of ripping it out you would see that it is not referring to atoning for the eternal consequences for sin - the punishment due to our offence against God. That is what Jesus did for us.

But when we sin we also damage ourselves - we turn towards things in creation that we put before God. We also damage others. If I steal a £1,000 from someone they are £1,000 poorer. I need to repent and ask God's forgiveness for that sin but should also make amends for what I have done to the other person - ideally by paying back the £1,000. We have to make some form of satisfaction.

Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance." (CCC 1459). It is that form of expiation that 1475 refers to not the offence against God.

The bible says no such thing. Do a search, you'll find that God does all this in the believer, not you. God purifies us, God makes us holy, God makes us able to stand in His presence....Jude 24-25. Its God, not you.
Its not biblical.

Of course it's God that purifies us and makes us holy.
But on what basis? What is our part in the purification process?

Here is the scriptural support
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)

2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)

3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)
Note that we are exhorted to strive for it.

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)
Again we are told we have to do something.

If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is.

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).

Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (Heb 12:22-23)
These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.


“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
(CCC 1031)

Glorification is not an alternative to purgatory. Thats just ridiculous.

Protestant scholars say differently
 

Mungo

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In my previous post I said that each tiime we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.


In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.

Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.

The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)

Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

“[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.”
(Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
 
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Nondenom40

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If you looked at the context of CCC 1475 instead of ripping it out you would see that it is not referring to atoning for the eternal consequences for sin - the punishment due to our offence against God. That is what Jesus did for us.
When it uses terms like expiate or as you quoted 1459 'make satisfaction for' then yes it is referring to atoning for sin. Your church uses these words then catholics don't like the definition. Not my problem.

But when we sin we also damage ourselves - we turn towards things in creation that we put before God. We also damage others. If I steal a £1,000 from someone they are £1,000 poorer. I need to repent and ask God's forgiveness for that sin but should also make amends for what I have done to the other person - ideally by paying back the £1,000. We have to make some form of satisfaction.
So when youre dead in purgatory how do you get that 1,000 back to the person you stole from? You don't. Thats what expiation is for, which means sacrifice, atonement.
Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance." (CCC 1459). It is that form of expiation that 1475 refers to not the offence against God.
Expiation refers to two things. The thing being expiated and the place. In the o.t. the place was the altar. The 'thing' were bulls and rams...animal sacrifice. In the n.t. the place of expiation is the cross. The person giving the expiatory sacrifice is Jesus. Its always been a substitutional sacrifice otherwise we would have had people lining up around the temple to be sacrificed. But here comes the rcc that says YOU must expiate YOUR sin either by penance (unbiblical concept) or purgatory which is equally unbiblical.
 

Giuliano

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There is no such thing as dying with spiritual flaws if you have "faith alone". Just how snow covered poop piles can get into heaven is beyond me.
I think I got that from a Church doctor. I believe it was St. Teresa of Avila. We humans can have so many flaws, we can't even imagine them all at first. God does not test us beyond what we can bear. We are not held accountable for the sins we cannot see since they are sins of ignorance; but if God reveals them to us, then we need to. Thus the need to inform our consciences. If we sin knowingly, certainly we will be held accountable; and we also should not be willfully ignorant.
 
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Nondenom40

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In my previous post I said that each tiime we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.


In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.

Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.

The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Youre missing the point of the story. The rich man thought he was keeping the commandments but Jesus shows him that he isn't. He couldn't part with his wealth and in so doing proved he didn't love God enough to put God first. It was his idol. So he was actually breaking the commandments not keeping them. When Jesus told him to put up or shut up basically, he couldn't do it. This has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life by keeping the commandments, that goes flatly against all scripture. Read Romans 4, Galatians....Salvation is by believing in Jesus as your savior and placing your trust in Him, not your own works to keep commandments we could never keep in the first place.
 

Mungo

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When it uses terms like expiate or as you quoted 1459 'make satisfaction for' then yes it is referring to atoning for sin. Your church uses these words then catholics don't like the definition. Not my problem.

You have no right to make up personal definitions of words and then insist others use them. It is your problem.

So when youre dead in purgatory how do you get that 1,000 back to the person you stole from? You don't. Thats what expiation is for, which means sacrifice, atonement.
My example was a minor one. "One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries)". If we fail to do that we incur a liability to what is called "temporal punishment". This is quite distinct from the eternal punishment due to the offence against God.

Expiation refers to two things. The thing being expiated and the place. In the o.t. the place was the altar. The 'thing' were bulls and rams...animal sacrifice. In the n.t. the place of expiation is the cross. The person giving the expiatory sacrifice is Jesus. Its always been a substitutional sacrifice otherwise we would have had people lining up around the temple to be sacrificed. But here comes the rcc that says YOU must expiate YOUR sin either by penance (unbiblical concept) or purgatory which is equally unbiblical.

Again you are failing to make the distiction between the offence against God for which Jesus made the atonement and the offence to others and the damage we do to ourselves from our sins. The latter is what must be expiated by us. Jesus doesn't do it for us.
 
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Mungo

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Youre missing the point of the story. The rich man thought he was keeping the commandments but Jesus shows him that he isn't. He couldn't part with his wealth and in so doing proved he didn't love God enough to put God first. It was his idol. So he was actually breaking the commandments not keeping them. When Jesus told him to put up or shut up basically, he couldn't do it. This has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life by keeping the commandments, that goes flatly against all scripture. Read Romans 4, Galatians....Salvation is by believing in Jesus as your savior and placing your trust in Him, not your own works to keep commandments we could never keep in the first place.

No he wasn't making money an idol. The text doesn't say that. Jesus didn't say he was breaking any commandment. Jesus didn't say he wasn't saved.

But you are right he didn't love God enough - enough being the important word. He was too attached to earthly things.
Purgatory is about perfection - and in this context perfecting love.

St. Paul writes:
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. (Col 3:12-14)

Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else; indeed love is the bond of perfection. All else besides love; that which detracts from love; that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged, burnt out by the refiners fire (Mal 3:2).

As Paul says: Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:31).

“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)
 
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Enoch111

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No he wasn't making money an idol. The text doesn't say that. Jesus didn't say he was breaking any commandment. Jesus didn't say he wasn't saved.
The text does not have to *say* everything. There are many things implied in Scripture. You will notice that Jesus did not refer to the first three commandments, but indirectly told this man that he was not keeping those commandments. Money was indeed his idol and his god, therefore he walked away from Christ rather that walk away from his wealth. Which tells us that ultimately he was not saved, and neither was he saved at the point that he met Christ.

Because wealth is a barrier to entering into the Kingdom of God, Jesus gave us the picture of a camel going through the eye of a needle. An impossibility.
 

Nondenom40

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You have no right to make up personal definitions of words and then insist others use them. It is your problem.
You mean like the rcc does? Do a study of propitiation. I don't need to make anything up to find the gaping holes in purgatory. The rcc does that all by itself with words like; expiate, make satisfaction for....They hang themselves.


My example was a minor one. "One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries)". If we fail to do that we incur a liability to what is called "temporal punishment". This is quite distinct from the eternal punishment due to the offence against God.
Your example is flawed. As they all are. Paying back someone for a broken window isn't expiation. And you can't do that in the next life anyway. In purgatory you are told you can expiate sin. Not my words but those of the rcc. You can't expiate sins. If Jesus didn't atone for 100% of your sin by the time you leave this life, its hell not purgatory youre going to.

Again you are failing to make the distiction between the offence against God for which Jesus made the atonement and the offence to others and the damage we do to ourselves from our sins. The latter is what must be expiated by us. Jesus doesn't do it for us.
In Ps 51 David said against YOU alone have i sinned. Paying for a broken window and paying for your sin in the afterlife are two entirely different things. We don't expiate a thing, God does through His son Jesus.
 
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illini1959

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You have no right to make up personal definitions of words and then insist others use them. It is your problem.


My example was a minor one. "One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries)". If we fail to do that we incur a liability to what is called "temporal punishment". This is quite distinct from the eternal punishment due to the offence against God.



Again you are failing to make the distiction between the offence against God for which Jesus made the atonement and the offence to others and the damage we do to ourselves from our sins. The latter is what must be expiated by us. Jesus doesn't do it for us.

Wow.

Jesus could've gone bowling on Good Friday. Who knew.

How do you make atonement by going to "purgatory"?

Also:
Dictionary
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ex·pi·ate
/ˈekspēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
atone for (guilt or sin).
"their sins must be expiated by sacrifice"

There's nothing you can do to atone for anything.
 
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Enoch111

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How do you make atonement by going to "purgatory"?
Just don't believe that Christ's atoning work on the cross was sufficient.

Just like not believing that the Bible is sufficient in every way for every Christian.
 

BreadOfLife

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Just don't believe that Christ's atoning work on the cross was sufficient.
The Church doesn't teach that.
It's BECAUSE of Christ's atoning sacrifice n the cross that I am given the chance to be purified before entering Heaven - not even Luthers "snow-covered dunghills" . . .

Rev. 21:27
states that NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven.
Are YOU perfect or impure?
Just like not believing that the Bible is sufficient in every way for every Christian.
The Bible doesn't teach that.
the onus is now on YOU to show it.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .
 
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Mungo

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The text does not have to *say* everything. There are many things implied in Scripture. You will notice that Jesus did not refer to the first three commandments, but indirectly told this man that he was not keeping those commandments. Money was indeed his idol and his god, therefore he walked away from Christ rather that walk away from his wealth. Which tells us that ultimately he was not saved, and neither was he saved at the point that he met Christ.

Because wealth is a barrier to entering into the Kingdom of God, Jesus gave us the picture of a camel going through the eye of a needle. An impossibility.

You infer things that are no implied.

The man asked what he must do to have eternal life.
Jesus said Keep the commandments
he said he had done that.
Jesus didn't rebuke him or call him out as a liar.
But the man wanted to know if he needed to do more.
Jesus reply was that if he wanted to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give to the poor.
Note that this was about becoming perfect not about inheriting eternal life. The implication is that he already would inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments.
 

Mungo

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You mean like the rcc does? Do a study of propitiation. I don't need to make anything up to find the gaping holes in purgatory. The rcc does that all by itself with words like; expiate, make satisfaction for....They hang themselves.

expiate
atone for (guilt or wrongdoing).

satisfaction
2. Law the payment of a debt or fulfilment of an obligation or claim.


Both from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
Both terms are applicable to the wrong we do to others.

Your example is flawed. As they all are. Paying back someone for a broken window isn't expiation. And you can't do that in the next life anyway. In purgatory you are told you can expiate sin. Not my words but those of the rcc. You can't expiate sins. If Jesus didn't atone for 100% of your sin by the time you leave this life, its hell not purgatory youre going to.

It is expiation. It's redressing the wrong we have done someone by stealing their money.
You want to use it solely in terms of the offence we do to God by our sins but it has a wide application.

In Ps 51 David said against YOU alone have i sinned. Paying for a broken window and paying for your sin in the afterlife are two entirely different things. We don't expiate a thing, God does through His son Jesus.

Really ? Does God pay back the £1,000 or mend the broken window?[/QUOTE]
 

Mungo

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Wow.

Jesus could've gone bowling on Good Friday. Who knew.

How do you make atonement by going to "purgatory"?

Also:
Dictionary
Search for a word
ex·pi·ate
/ˈekspēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
atone for (guilt or sin).
"their sins must be expiated by sacrifice"

There's nothing you can do to atone for anything.

atone
n verb (atone for) make amends or reparation for.

atonement
n noun
1 reparation for a wrong or injury.
2 (the Atonement) Christian Theology the reconciliation of God and mankind through the death of Jesus Christ.


The Atonement (capital; 'A') is what Jesus did for us. He made reparation for the offence we do to God when we sin.

BUT - there is double effect of sin.
We commit an offence against God
we damage ourselves and (usually) commit an offence against another person.
As the Catechism says:
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

If you steal do you think it's OK to say sorry to God but keep the money?

Does Jesus pay the money back to the person we stole it from?
 
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Mungo

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How do you make atonement by going to "purgatory"?

In our society if we commit an offence against another person we are brought to trial and if convicted we receive some punishment. That may be to repay some money; it may be to undertake some community work; it may be imprisonment for a time.
We are making reparation - satisfaction - to the person, to society for our offence.
This is a matter of justice.

But note also that the Church teaches:
The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father. (CCC1460 quoting from the Council of Trent)

If we do not do this we are still due some punishment. The Catholic Church calls this "temporal punishment".
But I don't want to make too much of this. The main purpose of Purgatory is purification. It's what the term comes from
Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary).
 
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reformed1689

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- Matt. 5:25‐26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”
This has nothing to do with the afterlife.

- Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.
No this has nothing to do with Purgatory. That is reading into the passage.

Ummmm, I gave FIVE examples from Scripture.

Go back and read them . . .
You gave examples that have nothing to do with what you claim they do. Purgatory is a false doctrine from a false church.
 
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