The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

Nondenom40 · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
Fine, please respond to this post and give your list of verses. I will gladly exegete them for you.

They don't exegete anything. They love plopping verses down with no explanation then when we disagree WE have to prove why. Its called shifting the burden. THEY need to give specifics not just list a bunch of verses and hope we ignore them.

BreadOfLife · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
No you gave a commentary with references listed. Please just give me a list of passages to work with and I will gladly exegete. Plus your formatting was atrocious and I can't really follow post number 4.

No - you can't refute post #4.

That's pretty much what I thought . . .

reformed1689 · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
No - you can't refute post #4.

That's pretty much what I thought . . .

No, I can't follow post number 4. Why can you not just post the list of verses that "prove" there is such a thing as purgatory. Because Scripture teaches that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). That alone proves there is no purgatory.

BreadOfLife · Oct 18, 2019

Nondenom40 said:
They don't exegete anything. They love plopping verses down with no explanation then when we disagree WE have to prove why. Its called shifting the burden. THEY need to give specifics not just list a bunch of verses and hope we ignore them.

Tell you what - I'll make it easy on you. Just address my comments on 1 Cor. 3:10-15 . . .

David Taylor said:
No, I can't follow post number 4. Why can you not just post the list of verses that "prove" there is such a thing as purgatory. Because Scripture teaches that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). That alone proves there is no purgatory.

Actually – Scripture NEVER says “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Paul says that he would RATHER be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.
STRIKE ONE . . .

In post #4 – I laid out 1 Cor. 3:10-15 in its entirety and explained the Catholic position – and you are refusing to address it.
STRIKE TWO . . .

I ALSO laid out a few other verses and explained why they refer to a final purification or “Purgatory” – and you are refusing to answer those as well.

STRIKE THREE – you’re OUT.

Mungo · Oct 18, 2019

Nondenom40 said:
Lol. You just scolded the last guy for just coming in here and saying 'youre wrong'. And thats all youre doing. I'm giving you clues to help your understanding and at the same time challenging you to go deeper. Your completely opposed to doing any sort of homework. I'm not doing it for you. Until you pick up a book you'll be in the dark. But hey, just let your church spoon feed you all this garbage and pretend you actually expiate your sin. Lets see how that works out for ya.

There is a maxim - that which is assertes without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You just give opinions without evidence to back them up.

Moreover you tell blatant lies and then refuse to admit it when called out.

Mungo · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
The absurdity of your posts don't need to be debated. They are clearly seen. But if you would like me to debate something specific just name it.

The posts are not absurd. You just cannot refute them.

reformed1689 · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Actually – Scripture NEVER says “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Paul says that he would RATHER be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.

And why would he have said that if when he was absent from the body he had to go through some undetermined length of purification? We are already declared righteous in Christ. The very next verse reiterates the point. While we are in the body we are away from the Lord. Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

As for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Paul is talking about the final judgement when our works are evaluated. Those who have done worthless things will have their deeds burnt up but they will still be saved. Those who have done things for the Kingdom will be rewarded. There is nothing about purgatory there.

As for the other verses, I have not refused to answer anything. Please list your verses.

reformed1689 · Oct 18, 2019

Mungo said:
The posts are not absurd. You just cannot refute them.

I just did. See post 67.

BreadOfLife · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
And why would he have said that if when he was absent from the body he had to go through some undetermined length of purification? We are already declared righteous in Christ. The very next verse reiterates the point. While we are in the body we are away from the Lord. Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

As for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Paul is talking about the final judgement when our works are evaluated. Those who have done worthless things will have their deeds burnt up but they will still be saved. Those who have done things for the Kingdom will be rewarded. There is nothing about purgatory there.

As for the other verses, I have not refused to answer anything. Please list your verses.

YOU stated that SCRIPTURES teaches “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Scripture teaches NO SUCH thing. That is a common Protestant overreach - and frankly, dishonest.

As for 1 Cor. 3:10-15, you are wrong there as well.
As I explained back in post #4 . . .

This CANNOT be Heaven because the person “suffers”.

Rev. 21:4 states emphatically that in Heaven, there is NO SUFFERING.

This CANNOT be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED.

Nobody in Hell is ever saved (Matt. 25:46).

This is a THIRD state. A state of final purification before entering Heaven because Rev. 21:27 states that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven.

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
That's about the most empty and impotent response yet.

Back that up by explaining the verses I presented.

yes your your claim is empty and impotent .the word purgatory is NOT IN THE BIBLE ..
Hebrews 9:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the " judgment:"

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

is there any part of verse 27 .. when you leave this earth in death there is one of 2 destinations heaven or hell. is there any part of 26 you dont understand ?

Nondenom40 · Oct 18, 2019

Mungo said:
There is a maxim - that which is assertes without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You just give opinions without evidence to back them up.

Moreover you tell blatant lies and then refuse to admit it when called out.

When you refuse to do some work you've already lost. Catholics love to claim victory when they can't even get off the couch. Armchair apologetics is the catholic way. "Don't bother me with having to actually open a bible or a lexicon." Your 21st century dictionaries aren't gonna get you there....i know this bursts your bubble but it is what it is.

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
YOU stated that SCRIPTURES teaches “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Scripture teaches NO SUCH thing. That is a common Protestant overreach - and frankly, dishonest.

As for 1 Cor. 3:10-15, you are wrong there as well.
As I explained back in post #4 . . .

This CANNOT be Heaven because the person “suffers”.

Rev. 21:4 states emphatically that in Heaven, there is NO SUFFERING.

This CANNOT be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED.

Nobody in Hell is ever saved (Matt. 25:46).

This is a THIRD state. A state of final purification before entering Heaven because Rev. 21:27 states that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven.

stop twisting scriptures lets look at in full text
Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and

part 2 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

no purging of sins your either SAVED when you die or LOST.. where you get your off the wall teachings is beyond me

do you need more if so post more false doctrine

reformed1689 · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
This CANNOT be Heaven because the person “suffers”.

Where does it say the person suffers? It says they suffer loss. That is not the same thing.

BreadOfLife said:
Rev. 21:4 states emphatically that in Heaven, there is NO SUFFERING.

Actually it doesn't. It says he will wipe away the tears. Why are they crying? Then it says there will be no more mourning, no more pain, no more tears.

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
This is a THIRD state. A state of final purification before entering Heaven because Rev. 21:27 states that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven.

sigh here we go again

Hebrews 9:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

note THE BLOOD there is NO third state gessh

1 Peter 1:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. please note verse 23 the 2 words BORN AGAIN

YOU DO UNDERSTAND BORN AGAIN ?

reformed1689 · Oct 18, 2019

Ezra said:
YOU DO UNDERSTAND BORN AGAIN ?

No they don't. That's the point.

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
Where does it say the person suffers? It says they suffer loss. That is not the same thing.

Actually it doesn't. It says he will wipe away the tears. Why are they crying? Then it says there will be no more mourning, no more pain, no more tears.

HE HAS NO LEG TO STAND ON he is blinded ny false teaching

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor said:
No they don't. That's the point.

yes your right

Berserk · Oct 18, 2019

David Taylor to Bread of Life:

"No this [Matthew 5:25-26] has nothing to do with Purgatory. That is reading into the passage.
You gave examples that have nothing to do with what you claim they do. Purgatory is a false doctrine from a false church."

Ah, the right time for me, a Pentecostal United Methodist, to come to the defense of my Catholic brothers.

A. "Come to terms quickly with you accuser [the Spirit of God working through conscience] while you are on the way to court with Him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge [God] , and the Judge to the guard [Satan], and you will be thrown in prison (Gehenna). Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)."

There are 7 grounds for applying this saying of Jesus to Purgatory:
(1) This text makes no sense if taken literally because Jesus would be telling his criminal disciples how to beat the rap.
(2) When Jesus uses the solemn expression "Truly I tell you," He always applies it to our relationship with God and never to secular cases like a court case over debt.
(3) Matthew 5:25-26 is consistently taken in a spiritualized sense in the early church rather than in a literal sense.
(4) Jesus uses the word "debt" for "sin" in the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:4). Indeed, in Aramaic "hob" (= "debt") is a standard word for "sin."
(5) In late antiquity "prison" is a standard image for Hell.
(6) Luke 12:57-59 places the same saying in an eschatological context that is appropriate for a discussion of our postmortem fate.
(7) In the Parable of 2 Debtors Jesus says something similar in a context that clearly applies to a sinful debtor's post-mortem purgatorial fate:
"In anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)."

B. "If the work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)."

The application of this Pauline text to Purgatory can be defended on at least these 3 grounds:
(1) In ancient rabbinic Judaism, the expression "saved, yet so as by fire" refers to postmortem purifying fire in Gehenna that prepares sinful Jews for their ascent to Heaven (for examples, see Strack-Billerbeck 4.2:1043-1049). Metaphoric expressions derive their meaning from their cultural context; so Fundamentalists have no grounds for construing the expression in the weaker sense as a metaphor for "saved by the skin of their teeth." Higher levels of Gehenna serve as an image of a state later labelled as Purgatory.
(2) Like his Jewish contemporaries (e. g 2 Enoch 8:1-3; Apocalypse of Moses 40:2), Paul locates Paradise in the third Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2, 4)." Paradise is the preferred point of postmortem arrival for the redeemed (Luke 23:42-43). Its location in the 3rd Heaven establishes the concept of levels of Heaven and raises the question about the nature of the first 2 Heavens. In Jewish conception the 2nd Heaven is described as fiery realm reminiscent of Purgatory.
(3) As Evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis famously said, "the gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In several places the New Testament teaches the possibility of graduation from Hell, a concept that is neatly compatible with the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. I will document this teaching in my next planned post.

Ezra · Oct 18, 2019

Berserk said:
Ah, the right time for me, a Pentecostal United Methodist, to come to the defense of my Catholic brothers.

a what? pentecostals and umc is so far apart its like eating bologna and then eating a good steak

In Jewish conception the 2nd Heaven is described as fiery realm reminiscent of Purgatory.

where does it say in the bible this ?

BreadOfLife · Oct 18, 2019

Ezra said:
yes your your claim is empty and impotent .the word purgatory is NOT IN THE BIBLE ..
Hebrews 9:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the " judgment:"

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

is there any part of verse 27 .. when you leave this earth in death there is one of 2 destinations heaven or hell. is there any part of 26 you dont understand ?

Ummmm, Purgatory or final purification is PART of the Judgement. It happens AFTER death.

What part of that don’t YOU understand?

As for the word “Purgatory” not being in Scripture – why is THIS an issue??

The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible – and this is a BASIC tenet of Christianity.

Same goes for “Incarnation” . . .

The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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