Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican

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Jane_Doe22

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Threads do change sometimes, I've seen!

I'm just wondering, how do you mean taste is an accident?

Isn't taste an interaction between our body's electro-chemical system and the properties of substances placed on our tongue? So that what I put on my tongue, the ingredients of the item cause certain electrical and chemical signals to initiate, and that those signals change according to the properties of those ingredients.

So to me, taste is a physical interaction that is repeatable, hence we have "favorite foods". Those certain foods have specific tastes we can return to.

I like chocolate cake. If that cake turns into a hamburger patty, it will have a different taste, will it not?

So then if the wafer and the wine change to flesh and blood, then they should have the properties of flesh and blood. Would they not?

Much love!
It's not a literal-literal change that we observe with our senses, but more a metaphysical one. How that exactly works is a mystery ("mystery" here being used in the theological sense of the word).

(Ussual I"m not Catholic disclaimer)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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So you know they preach the false doctrine that it literally becomes the flesh and blood of Christ. We are eating literal flesh and drinking literal blood. You know that is what they teach right?

you haven’t answered the question yet...does God dwell in you and you in Him, metaphorically, figuratively or literally?
 

marks

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It's not a literal-literal change that we observe with our senses, but more a metaphysical one. How that exactly works is a mystery ("mystery" here being used in the theological sense of the word).

(Ussual I"m not Catholic disclaimer)
A couple of non-Catholics discussing Catholic Mystery Doctrine! There ya go! But it's about the most pleasant discussion I've had on the topic.

Much love!
 

Jane_Doe22

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A couple of non-Catholics discussing Catholic Mystery Doctrine! There ya go! But it's about the most pleasant discussion I've had on the topic.

Much love!
Theological discussions don't have to get nasty. We can strive to understand God and each other while being pleasant and acting in a Christ-like fashion.

I myself have some major disagreements about the Real Presence in Catholic theology. But I can (and I feel should) strive to understand what other people believe accurately and respectfully. And of course I always strive to better understand God for myself :)
 

epostle

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So you know they preach the false doctrine that it literally becomes the flesh and blood of Christ. We are eating literal flesh and drinking literal blood. You know that is what they teach right?
We teach that the sacrifice in the Upper Room, where Jesus consecrated Bread and Wine, is one and the same sacrifice as the Crucifixion. So does the Bible. THE EUCHARIST - Scripture Catholic
I wrote in page 5:
"...since they refused to grapple with the root issue of what Christianity is, and why they think Catholicism isn’t Christian. One can’t really have a true dialogue until fundamental differences are addressed."
At last, you have defined what you think a false doctrine is, without running off in several different directions, which you have done. Plain bashing is not true dialogue. I ask you again, "What do you think is the true Gospel"? Until you answer that question, all your flaming zingers (Catholics teach a different Gospel, or this or that is not in the Bible) are meaningless, and you clearly indicate an unwillingness to engage in mature discussion.

How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism
The Eucharist is either Jesus or Evil
The Eucharist is either Jesus or mere bread and wine.

If the Eucharist is Jesus, everyone should be at Mass, worshipping Our Lord. If the Eucharist is Jesus, there should be no such thing as Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, atheism, etc. But if the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then for two thousand years, the would-be followers of Jesus Christ were actually idolaters. If that’s the case, nobody should be Catholic.

So those are the stakes. Everyone who encountered Jesus of Nazareth was faced with a crucial question: is this God, in some mysterious guise, or not? The early Christians called this the “aut Deus aut malus homo” (“either God or a bad man”). Everyone encountering the Eucharist is faced with the same question: either God or idolatry.

And of course, if the Eucharist is pagan idolatry, it’s demonic. As 1 Corinthians 10:20 says, “what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.”

The whole world hangs on this point: is the Eucharist Jesus or an idol? Is the Sacrifice of the Mass being offered to God, or to demons?

Satan Hates the Eucharist
The satanic Black Mass is a ritual inversion (and mockery) of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass performed by Satanists. Now, there are two types of Satanists: “LaVey Satanists,” and “theological Satanists.” LaVey Satanists atheists who don’t believe in Satan, and use “Satanism” as a tool to harass and provoke Christians (unlike “theological Satanists,” who believe in Satan and worship him). But whether the practitioners are playing at the occult, or serious, there’s no question that they’re tapping into some seriously dark spiritual forces. Satan is at work here.

And it worth pointing out that when Satanists (of both kind) want to mock a religious ritual, you can bet that it’s going to be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they target. How often do you hear about Muslim or Hindu or Jewish (or even Protestant) services being subjected to such intense Satanic mockery?

Nor is this Satanic targeting of the Mass anything new. As far back as the fourth century, St. Epiphanius of Salamis described a sect of Gnosticism performing a perverted mockery of Mass. I won’t go into the details, but it was graphic enough that the members of this sect became known as “Borborians” (“filthy ones”).

Satan Doesn’t Drive Out Satan
So the Eucharist is either Jesus or evil (since if it’s not Jesus, it’s idolatry) and since the devil hates the Eucharist, we can cross “evil” off the list.

For some additional Biblical support, consider Matthew 12.22-28:

“Then a blind and dumb demoniac was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “It is only by Be-el′zebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

“Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Be-el′zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

This passage is important: it shows, for example, that Catholic exorcists are operating by the Spirit of God when they drive out demons. But it also means that if Satan hates the Mass, we can be sure that the Mass isn’t evil.

Of course, if the Mass isn’t demonic, if it isn’t idolatry, that really only leaves one option: that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, and that the Sacrifice of the Mass is presenting Jesus to the Father. This (and as far as I can tell, this alone), accounts for the Satanic mockery.

The Target of Satan
Even if the only thing you knew about Catholicism was that its central form of worship, the Mass, was the target of Satanic ire, you would already have good reason to believe that Catholicism was the true religion.

But taken with all of the other evidence for the truth that the Eucharist is Jesus, that the Mass is a Sacrifice instituted by God, and that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, Satan is just one more (unwitting) witness for the truth of Jesus Christ and His Church.
How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism

Again, "What do you think is the true Gospel"??? It's not a difficult question for a person with your credentials.
 
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reformed1689

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If the Eucharist is Jesus, everyone should be at Mass, worshipping Our Lord. If the Eucharist is Jesus, there should be no such thing as Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, atheism, etc. But if the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then for two thousand years, the would-be followers of Jesus Christ were actually idolaters. If that’s the case, nobody should be Catholic.
The Eucharist is not Jesus. Do this as oft as ye eat it in REMEMBRANCE of me.
 

4Jesus

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What a novel way to encourage prayer. More people praying is a good thing. Right?

Curious Mary

Or, just an or here...the Vatican can send an order down through the heirarchy to the local churches to have the service leaders end each service, every week, with a "Remember to pray" - takes 5 seconds, doesn't cost anyone anything, the poor and middle class can save some money or give it to people in need instead.

I don't know about you, but I don't charge my brothers and sisters to encourage them. I guess some are willing to charge their brothers and sisters for encouragement...money money money.
 
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4Jesus

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Same type of manipulation they used to help suckers pay for building Peter’s Basicilica.

Yeah. To me, it further divides the "us" and "them" between leadership and congregation. Additionally, it goes against looking out for your brothers and sisters in Christ - encouragement, advice when asked, opinion, being a friend at least, should all be free, especially for brothers and sisters in Chirst. Keeping away the predators from the prey is the least we should do for our siblings in Christ, since it's not of the love that Jesus has for us, and takes away the focus from Him, in my opinion.
 
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amadeus

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Roman catholic theology is not even remotely christian.
No? And there are no Catholics who really and sincerely believe in God? Are none of them hungry and thirsty for righteousness, the righteousness of God that is?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." MAatt 5:6

For your information I am not Catholic, but a great many years ago I was and I came to know God first as a Catholic. Your usage of the phrase: "not even remotely Christian" is the one that bothers me. I have known a very few Catholics who what I could by their fruit were walking closer to God than a great many Protestants I have known. Generalizing will ultimately not get us 'brownie points' with God... nor with most people who are really in love with God. That is my opinion. Slow down a mite. God looks at individual hearts without regard to any affiliation a person may have with organized groups calling themselves Christian.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
 
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Philip James

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I memory serves, you consider me a sort of Christian, but not really, not like you.
Dear marks,

whatever gave you that idea? I rejoice that you call Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour! I am quite sure that you are sincere in your faith, and I gladly call you brother.


I've already received Him. What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the wedding feast! You have read the Lord's love letters, you've said yes to Him and are thus betrothed to Him, I'm just inviting you to consummate that union by joining us at the feast!

How many times do you "receive Christ"?

daily when I can..

What happens if I don't take communion? If I simply believe what God said that all who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved? Am I still saved by just less than? I remember now, that's kind of where we left it before.

That would be between you and Him, He will bring Whomsoever He chooses to the eternal feast. Why ask me to judge you?

Here again you bring up this 'less than' comment of yours.

Do you think I post the things I do to denigrate people? No, rather, I extend invitations to the feast that their joy may be full!

But seriously . . . how many times do you "receive Jesus"? Is it because He leaves you in between those times?

How many times does a wife receive her husband? Once would be enough to consummate the marriage.. but it would be a cold marriage indeed that never again had physical intimacy.
My wife is always with me. She and I are one, whether we're in the same room together or 100's of miles apart. Does this mean there is not still joy in the complete union of ourselves with each other?

The banquet hall doors are open and the party is ongoing! What keeps you from the wedding feast?

What do most people do? What would I be served? What is the default?

I keep asking about this because mostly what I see is that the priests partake of the bread and wine, and the laity partake of the bread only. I know at least that there are many that way, and I ask again, why some are different?

There can be many reasons to receive only the body , but I'll demonstrate an obvious one:

I attended a Mass celebrated by JohnPaul the Great in 1985. There were about 60000 people present. Consecrating enough wine for all would be practically impossible. The Body however can be easily reserved stored and transported (with proper reverence) from earlier consecrations so that there is enough to give to all.

Peace be with you!
 
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amadeus

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That commandment to love your neighbor as yourself INCLUDES telling them the truth.

Not telling them the truth is the exact opposite of love.
And what is this "truth" exactly? If as Paul writes, we are still seeing as through a glass darkly are we with all of our 'knowledge' that well qualified to be pointing to the beam or even the splinter in the eye of someone else?
 

amadeus

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I don't have problems dealing with people outside of my denomination, but I do have a problem when they call non-christian groups christian just because that is how they identify.
With you a member of your group, should we not similarly have a problem with you calling your group Christian because that is how they identify? What is the difference? Maybe no one anywhere should call themselves Christian if anyone anywhere questions their assertion that they are?
 

epostle

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The Eucharist is not Jesus. Do this as oft as ye eat it in REMEMBRANCE of me.
Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – the translation of Jesus’ words of consecration is “touto poieite tan eman anamnasin.” Jesus literally said “offer this as my memorial sacrifice.” The word “poiein” (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word – poieseis – regarding the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word “anamnesis” (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is really or actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). It is not just a memorial of a past event, but a past event made present in time.

In other words, the “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.” If the Eucharist weren’t a sacrifice, Luke would have used the word “mnemosunon” (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial.

Lev. 24:7 – the word “memorial” in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is “azkarah” which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where “azkarah” refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus’ instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a “memorial offering” demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present timelessly.

Heb. 9:23 – in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. (Malachi 1:11) This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.

Rev. 19:13 – in all His glory, Jesus’ sacrifice is eternally present as He presents Himself to the Father clothed in a robe dipped in blood. Jesus’ sacrifice is the focus in heaven and in the Mass. When the Father beholds His Son, He beholds His sacrifice for humanity.

Jesus presents HIMSELF to the Father on our behalf, in the form of Bread and Wine. HIMSELF, not mere memorials. You sure put a lot of faith in symbols that don't do anything.
 
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reformed1689

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With you a member of your group, should we not similarly have a problem with you calling your group Christian because that is how they identify? What is the difference? Maybe no one anywhere should call themselves Christian if anyone anywhere questions their assertion that they are?
What in the world are you babbling about?
 

reformed1689

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And what is this "truth" exactly? If as Paul writes, we are still seeing as through a glass darkly are we with all of our 'knowledge' that well qualified to be pointing to the beam or even the splinter in the eye of someone else?
Love how you take multiple Scriptures out of context at the same time....classic.
 

Philip James

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With you a member of your group, should we not similarly have a problem with you calling your group Christian because that is how they identify? What is the difference? Maybe no one anywhere should call themselves Christian if anyone anywhere questions their assertion that they are?

I love you amadeus,

your wisdom is a blessing to all of us...

so you'll forgive me if I contradict you by saying, that better all of us accept each others claim to follow Christ and thus accept each other as 'Christian'.

do any of us who call Jesus Lord and Saviour not follow as we are able?

Not that that's actually contradicting you... it's just saying the same in reverse... (not sure if I'm making sense here or not lol )

Peace be with you!
 
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Philip James

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Just thought I'd add... how did we get here from a simple device to aid one in prayer? Must have been the Father's will...

To Him be all Glory and Honour! Forever and ever!
 

Enoch111

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Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – the translation of Jesus’ words of consecration is “touto poieite tan eman anamnasin.” Jesus literally said “offer this as my memorial sacrifice.”
Strong's Concordance
poieó: to make, do
Original Word: ποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poieó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-eh'-o)
Definition: to make, do
Usage: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.

That word is never used for sacrifice. And since the Bible tells us that Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, that should settle the matter. There can be no re-sacrificing of Christ as in the Mass. The Lord's Supper is a Remembrance Feast, and the elements are symbolic of His body and blood.
 
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