The Gospel was changed by God:

H. Richard said:

Really!! I see that there is the same veil over your eyes as is over the Jews. Your opinion is that what Paul said is a lie.

Click to expand...

I would say rather, that this is a matter of semantics, that what "changed" was not the "gospel", but rather the ministry as is appropriate for each different "fold."

So then, the gospel is the same, but the folds and their ministries (their dispensations) are different and have changed.

Nondenom40 said:

Luther didn't change anything. That sounds more catholic.

Click to expand...

Really? How so?

H. Richard said:

Really? So you think all those words written by Paul are lies.

Show me where the law was given to Adam and Abraham. There was a time before the law was given and a time after it was given.

Click to expand...

Genesis 26 - 3-5
verse 5 "Because Abraham Obeyed My Voice and Kept My Charge, My Commandments, My Statutes, and My Laws"
Abraham walked with God, A one on one relationship, no need to have it written down, only after the Nation was established, was the need to have it in writing! A Nation established and Maintained through the Instruction's from God!

Hmm... Well something changed! When Christ came SOMETHING changed! Do we even consider there was a gospel before Christ came? It was foretold, yes... It was said a change was coming. But that is still a change.

I am of the mindset that it didn't change but was in development with Paul. There was a change, but that happened in Matthew 11:12-13 and Luke 16:16. The law and prophets were until John the Baptist. The change came with Jesus Christ and was not fully manifested and completed until Paul finished. Maybe Paul's ministry was the butterfly to the caterpillar that Jesus started as and went into the cacoon.

(Yea... That's going to be real popular! Just remember folks... Without the caterpillar there is no butterfly! And I am just saying "maybe")

Paul indeed brought forth the message of Grace through faith that JESUS established. He didn't invent it, he uncovered what Jesus did. It was there since the death of Jesus and even before. But it was revealed by Paul.

H. Richard said:

If you tell a man that God is demanding no good works of him whatsoever, no religious observances or church ordinances, that God is not asking him to undertake any duties at all,

Click to expand...

But Richard... this is where I disagree. If you are talking about all kinds of wacky rituals, I agree. Even water baptism... It's ok, it was done but no... Not required. But if you are talking strictly attending Church, I have a problem. Because the same Paul that revealed Grace also set forth an orderly ministry and rules for church. And unless you think the Holy spirit left him at that point but returned when he spoke of Grace, you have a problem.

Grace comes through faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

You cannot hear the Word without a preacher who is sent by God.

That's not me saying that, it's not James and it isn't even directly Jesus saying it (though he indirectly did)... That comes from the pen of PAUL!

with Grace, he didn't demand a bunch of rules or regulations on the flesh. But he set up a system of how to conduct Church. He st up practices during the service and govt of the Church.

Or am I wrong? Did he not? I have given you the verses! What I got back was a somber tail of how it's such a shame that some don't believe the message of Grace and how some feel we must go to Church... Bla, bla bla...

Yet... You never deal directly with Paul's writing when it comes to going to Church and how it should be run.

FHII said:

You cannot hear the Word without a preacher who is sent by God

Click to expand...

One can by reading the word for themselves

Episkopos said:

Really? How so?

Click to expand...

When a catholic goes to confession he/she could be lying through their teeth to the priest. He absolves them anyway. He has no clue how repentant they are. Which is one of many reasons the whole thing is a sham.

The law was changed by God in the new covenant (Hebrews 7:12); but certainly the gospel has never changed.

There is one gospel defined as the gospel in Hebrews 4:2 (kjv). It was preached to us as well as to them; but in them it was not mixed with faith in them that heard it. When it was preached to them, it was the same gospel; for it was the gospel.

Heb 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

friend of said:

One can by reading the word for themselves

Click to expand...

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

These verses which we read for ourselves say otherwise. Romans 10:14 does nots say, "how should they believe them whom they have not read about?"

You don't "hear" by reading. You hear by a preacher. I am all for reading... It should be done and we can both find verses for that.but these verses speak of hearing and preaching. Not reading.

If you can be saved by reading the scripture and the very scripture points to preaching, you have a delemnia. If you can be saved by reading and it says to find a preacher, then you aren't obeying what you read, and neither preaching or reading is working in your favor.

Want more stuff to read?

FHII said:

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

These verses which we read for ourselves say otherwise. Romans 10:14 does nots say, "how should they believe them whom they have not read about?"

You don't "hear" by reading. You hear by a preacher. I am all for reading... It should be done and we can both find verses for that.but these verses speak of hearing and preaching. Not reading.

If you can be saved by reading the scripture and the very scripture points to preaching, you have a delemnia. If you can be saved by reading and it says to find a preacher, then you aren't obeying what you read, and neither preaching or reading is working in your favor.

Want more stuff to read?

Click to expand...

The preacher who has only read the word will then preach to others and will save both himself and those who hear him.

It appears that he got the truth from reading alone without having had the gospel preached to him; and was saved through his preaching the truth to others; which he found out about through the reading of God's word.

1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

FHII said:

You don't "hear" by reading. You hear by a preacher. I am all for reading... It should be done and we can both find verses for that.but these verses speak of hearing and preaching. Not reading.

If you can be saved by reading the scripture and the very scripture points to preaching, you have a delemnia. If you can be saved by reading and it says to find a preacher, then you aren't obeying what you read, and neither preaching or reading is working in your favor.

Click to expand...

Then you are saying that God alone cannot save a person. They need another person to save them. I disagree

FHII said:

If you can be saved by reading the scripture and the very scripture points to preaching, you have a dilemma.

Click to expand...

Not really. Whether one reads or hears the Gospel, it is the Holy Spirit who brings Gospel truth to bear on hearts and souls. Ideally one should hear the Gospel being preached, but God is not limited.

Hello,

Christ preached the Salvation Covenant which has been in existence since the creation of Adam and God advised the Israelites through Daniel that the Salvation process would be changed about 490 years before it was on the cross. Jesus told us this if you can understand the Greek text of Matthew 13:52 when He stated that the Salvation Covenant from the beginning of time would be refreshed so that it was like new again.

But everybody looks at the wrong Covenants of the "Old" and the "New" which are the labels given by men who introduced the concepts of a "New Covenant Theology" to the Church.

Shalom

justbyfaith said:

The preacher who has only read the word will then preach to others and will save both himself and those who hear him.

Click to expand...

Or maybe he heard another preacher.

friend of said:

Then you are saying that God alone cannot save a person. They need another person to save them

Click to expand...

No. I did not say that. You have me confused with the holy spirit as spoken through Paul. He's the one who said it;. Not me.

I just gave the scripture that says it.

Romans 10:13-14 KJV
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Argue with that... Not me.

Enoch111 said:

Not really. Whether one reads or hears the Gospel, it is the Holy Spirit who brings Gospel truth to bear on hearts and souls. Ideally one should hear the Gospel being preached, but God is not limited.

Click to expand...

Really?

Ok. Show me where:

Romans 10:13-14 KJV
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I see nothing about reading. I believe in reading and the power of, "it is written". But I see nothing about reading in this verse.

READ IT, and follow what it says... It says faith comes by hearing. Not reading.

No, God isn't limited... But he has a plan. It's a foolish plan, but it is his way of doing it:

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Yea... Foolishness.. but that's what pleased God. Not my fault... Not my opinion... That's what it says.

Maybe it is talking about hearing with the heart...the things that you have read in the word of the Lord.

I do believe that everyone is accountable to God's word over the fact that there is a Bible in every home in America (at least, that is what I have heard).

FHII said:

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

These verses which we read for ourselves say otherwise. Romans 10:14 does nots say, "how should they believe them whom they have not read about?"

You don't "hear" by reading. You hear by a preacher. I am all for reading... It should be done and we can both find verses for that.but these verses speak of hearing and preaching. Not reading.

If you can be saved by reading the scripture and the very scripture points to preaching, you have a delemnia. If you can be saved by reading and it says to find a preacher, then you aren't obeying what you read, and neither preaching or reading is working in your favor.

Want more stuff to read?

Click to expand...

Paul did say those things, but did not contradict himself having read much, but in fact received his own knowledge directly from the Lord in spirit.

This truth is akin to: “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Both the Master and His servants do work.

The wind said:

Believing on Jesus Christ is the work every sinner should do to have eternal life. It is through faith that we are baptized into the body of Christ, and then being in the body of Christ, the old man being dead( :whoever you were, such as Mike, George or John) we are to continue in Christ our new life: doing his Commandments: this is loving one another.

The key to this new birth, is for a person to baptize you in the name of Jesus having the Spirit of God: or else you are not born of God and your baptism is void and you are yet in the old man.

Click to expand...

The key to this new life is something a human does to you?

stunnedbygrace said:

The key to this new life is something a human does to you?

Click to expand...

If it is done in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit of God, is it there for done by man or God?