Calvinism

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John Caldwell

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Augustine

“This, the catholic faith has known of the one and only mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who condescended to undergo death—that is, the penalty of sin—without sin, for us. As He alone became the Son of man, in order that we might become through Him sons of God, so He alone, on our behalf, undertook punishment without ill deservings, that we through Him might obtain grace without good deservings. Because as to us nothing good was due so to Him nothing bad was due. Therefore, commending His love to them to whom He was about to give undeserved life, He was willing to suffer for them an undeserved death.” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Book 4, chap. 7)
I agree that he held a Substitution atonement. This is not Penal Substitution Theory (see my quote from Augustine).

We cannot pull apart parts we like from Augustine (or anyone). That is not being honest.

The difference, of course, is Augustine taught Jeses did not die to appease God. I agree with Augustine's statement in your post. But I do not hold Penal Substitution Theory.
 

Preacher4Truth

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It's interesting watching a couple go back and forth in their folly, discord, demeaning posts, high fiving one another for their malice laden responses. Natural men led of the flesh do such things, but those who are led of the spirit have both life and peace instead of being controlled and driven to respond as aforementioned; Romans 8:6.

I invite all led and controlled by the flesh (Romans 8:7-8 persons) to repent and believe the Gospel in order to experience life and peace, whomever this may pertain to, here, or otherwise. :)
 

Grailhunter

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Hey brother, how are you? I know you meant the above to be demeaning, to get a rise out of me, others, but it's OK, I forgive you. I know you really didn't mean anything by it, it's just the natural man in you, where you are at, spiritually speaking, 1 Corinthians 2:14 &c.

One thing that is wondrous is the fact that the God of the universe, who is holy, gracious, merciful, came to save those whom he had chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1. That is wonderful news, and he did this to set us free from the above behavior of yours, mine, all of His, or, as stated in Scripture, save us (His people) from our sins, Matthew 1:21. That is wonderful news!

You think this about demeaning you? You underestimate me again.
 
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John Caldwell

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It's interesting watching a couple go back and forth in their folly, discord, demeaning posts, high fiving one another for their malice laden responses. Natural men led of the flesh do such things, but those who are led of the spirit have both life and peace instead of being controlled and driven to respond as aforementioned; Romans 8:6.

I invite all led and controlled by the flesh (Romans 8:7-8 persons) to repent and believe the Gospel in order to experience life and peace, whomever this may pertain to, here, or otherwise. :)
I have observed some do that for years. It is not interesting but sad.

People become indoctrinated. They seem to believe anyone who is not "with them" in their theories and theology is somehow against them.

I have seen small groups of professing Christians team up against other Christians that hold different understandings. I saw one even brag about slandering a professor for holding non-Reformed views so that he left a forum.

I do not know how active you are, brother, but across several boards I have seen abusive pastors and all kinds of ungodly behavior from people who are supposed to be imitating Christ.

So I absolutely agree with you.
 

Grailhunter

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Hey brother, how are you? I know you meant the above to be demeaning, to get a rise out of me, others, but it's OK, I forgive you. I know you really didn't mean anything by it, it's just the natural man in you, where you are at, spiritually speaking, 1 Corinthians 2:14 &c.

One thing that is wondrous is the fact that the God of the universe, who is holy, gracious, merciful, came to save those whom he had chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1. That is wonderful news, and he did this to set us free from the above behavior of yours, mine, all of His, or, as stated in Scripture, save us (His people) from our sins, Matthew 1:21. That is wonderful news!

Do you think I believe you are satanic?
 

Giuliano

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It's interesting watching a couple go back and forth in their folly, discord, demeaning posts, high fiving one another for their malice laden responses. Natural men led of the flesh do such things, but those who are led of the spirit have both life and peace instead of being controlled and driven to respond as aforementioned; Romans 8:6.

I invite all led and controlled by the flesh (Romans 8:7-8 persons) to repent and believe the Gospel in order to experience life and peace, whomever this may pertain to, here, or otherwise. :)
You surprise me. I thought you were a Calvinist. It's good to see you believe that all can repent and be saved.
 

Steve Owen

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Just a question, Brother; have you ever read the book "Redemption, Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray?
Yes, it's sitting on my bookcase, though it's a long time since I read it. He is very sound, but not easy reading.
 
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John Caldwell

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  1. I grew up in Marietta Georgia (I moved in middle school to Nashville). I remember KKK and Black Panther rallies on the square.

Some of the klan people read that white people were God's chosen and minorities bore the mark of Cain. They passed out fliers explaining Scripture to defend their hatred.

I learned at an early age how presuppositions color peoples understanding. Without addressing the flawed philosophies and ideologies I do not think the Word could ever come through (they only read hated into the biblical text).

The same is true with Calvinism. Until the underlying philosophy is identified and addressed they will always see the theology as if it were Scripture.

This is not saying if it is correct or incorrect. Just we all need to be objective enough to examine our understanding as our understanding rather than Scripture itself. We are not God.

In all this discussion Calvinists here have nit even attempted to prove their presuppositions. I suspect they do not even understand they exist.
 

Willie T

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You posted "We are not God." But, therein has been a major part of the pride that has been plaguing us since Adam...… "We WANT to be God."

It shows up in ALL of us wanting to declare judgement on others.
 
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Steve Owen

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Matthew 4:3-4 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

I believe that we are dependent on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (what is written).
Amen! We are in total agreement at this point.
In terms of doctrine, I do believe that we need to use passages and not form a doctrine on a single verse. But at the same time, we cannot merely dismiss God’s word simply because it is not repeated. My insistence is that our belief (when it comes to essential doctrine) should be written at least once. We should not only believe what Scripture states but we should give it the same emphasis as does Scripture.
This sounds great, but it doesn't actually work, either for the Trinity or for P.S. For example, when I read, 'He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities.........,' that to me is Penal Substitution, end of story, next subject, please. But then you say that it doesn't say that God wounded and bruised Him, so I have to look down to Isaiah 53:10, when I find that it was the LORD Himself who put Him to grief. But then you say that it doesn't say that God punished Him with our punishment, so I have to look first at Isaiah 53:11-12 where it says that He '....Shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities' and 'He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many.' I put that together with verse 6, and we have Penal Substitution.

So He was bruised and put to grief by God, bearing the iniquities of sinners and being numbered among them. But you than say that it wasn't a punishment. Well, what was it then? You don't tell us. But to nail down the point, we have to go further afield to get a definitive answer. We have to go to Galatians 3:13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"'). Now who has done the cursing here? The law? Whose law is it? Who caused the Bible to be written. Who 'breathed' the curses found in Deuteronomy 27:26 and Deuteronomy 21:23? God did. And His curse upon sin and sinners fell upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and He has borne it. 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree' (2 Peter 2:24). Why does Peter write 'tree' instead of cross? Because he is showing that Christ was bearing the curse of God upon sin and sinners. 'And by His wounds we are healed.' He has borne the curse of God, so that we do not have to. case proved; Penal Substitution.
In regards to Isaiah 53 I believe that Jesus was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. I believe Jesus bore our griefs He Himself bore, and carried our sorrows BUT we esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. I believe Jesus was pierced through for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities. I believe that the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. I believe that God has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Christ.

What I do not believe is that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us. That is not written in the passage and I do not believe I have the authority to insert it into the text (I also believe the passage itself sufficient and logical without those types of additions).
Well it is there, right in Isaiah 53, but because you are utterly determined not to see it there, we have to go to other passages to establish it. That is Hermeneutics 101. I have done so above, and established the case. If you wish to dispute it, you need to go through my posts line by line and show me where my mistake is. And that is what, up to now, you have never done.
 

Steve Owen

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  1. I grew up in Marietta Georgia (I moved in middle school to Nashville). I remember KKK and Black Panther rallies on the square.
Some of the klan people read that white people were God's chosen and minorities bore the mark of Cain. They passed out fliers explaining Scripture to defend their hatred.

I learned at an early age how presuppositions color peoples understanding. Without addressing the flawed philosophies and ideologies I do not think the Word could ever come through (they only read hated into the biblical text).

The same is true with Calvinism. Until the underlying philosophy is identified and addressed they will always see the theology as if it were Scripture.

This is not saying if it is correct or incorrect. Just we all need to be objective enough to examine our understanding as our understanding rather than Scripture itself. We are not God.

In all this discussion Calvinists here have nit even attempted to prove their presuppositions. I suspect they do not even understand they exist.
Oh boy! So now Calvinists are racists and KKK. can't you fit child-molesters and rapists in there somewhere?
 

Steve Owen

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And God is not, IMHO, pleased when professing Christians substitute the gospel of Jesus Christ with Calvinism, Arminianism, or any other -ism.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.
And just who is doing that? I've not read every post in this enormous thread, but I haven't seen it.
Why don't you define what you think the Gospel is? Then we can see how Calvinism (as opposed to the wretched caricatures of it posted by some) stacks up.
 

Grailhunter

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Philip George Zimbardo is an American psychologist and a professor at Stanford University. He defines mind control as "the process by which individual or collective freedom of choice and action is compromised by agents or agencies that modify or distort perception, motivation, affect, cognition or behavioral outcomes," and he suggested that any human being is susceptible to such manipulation. He is talking about the removal of a person’s conscience.

Most scenarios that involve mind control are about influencing someone to do something deviant. Part of that process is removing the individual’s ability to discern between right and wrong, good or bad, in a religious context, it also includes the inability to discern between evil and holy. This is one of the reasons Calvinists can cast God in the role of Satan, and can be completely oblivious to the fact that this is wrong.

In the case of Calvinists they are programmed to commit crimes against God and think it is good. Made to believe it is good to depict God as a hideous puppet master that would take over the will of Mankind. They honestly think that this is a good thing! It is good that God damns people to hell before they are born…. These people are completely void of conscience. In a religious setting this can be equated to a black mass, in which everyone there believes it is a good thing.

The physical problem being that if one of these people trip offline, they step out into society as a complete sociopath, if crimes against God is nothing, then crimes against humanity is definitely nothing....God made them do it!

Now this means nothing to a Calvinist that is reading this…they cannot see the wrong. The mind control aspects of this religion is irrefutable, they profess this fact themselves, that is, that their minds are controlled. No matter what they do or think, it is by the control of God.

So freeing a Calvinist mind is very unlikely. So my efforts here, stands as warning to those on this forum and also internationally, to those that would be approached by a Calvinist with the intent of recruiting them.

You have to be careful because most of the time they are not going tell you they are Calvinist and certainly are not going to explain what that means. The Calvinist concepts have infected several denominations. And several denominations recognize the dangers of this infestation and have held meetings and councils on it.

You can check online about this or any other religion that employs mind control, you can verify this with various anti-cult sites, you can check with your local law enforcement.

Is Calvinism cultic?

https://religionnews.com/2014/05/20/troubling-trends-americas-calvinist-revival/

https://safeguardyoursoul.com/the-idiocy-of-calvinism/

International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) would be a good place to start. International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA)

Watchman Fellowship
https://www.watchman.org
Phone: 817.277.0023

 

John Caldwell

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Oh boy! So now Calvinists are racists and KKK. can't you fit child-molesters and rapists in there somewhere?
You believe I posted that Calvinists are racists?????

This is the problem with how you read Scripture as well, Steve. You read into it what is not there.
 

Stranger

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The same is true with Calvinism. Until the underlying philosophy is identified and addressed they will always see the theology as if it were Scripture.

This is not saying if it is correct or incorrect. Just we all need to be objective enough to examine our understanding as our understanding rather than Scripture itself. We are not God.

In all this discussion Calvinists here have nit even attempted to prove their presuppositions. I suspect they do not even understand they exist.

Myself I am not a thorough going Calvinist. But I do hold to much of Calvinist doctrine. I have nothing against Calvinism though I may disagree in certain areas. It seems only in the past few years that Calvinism has become a hated doctrine by many believers. Much like dispensational doctrine too has become hated by many and even likened to cult status.

So, just what do you say are the presuppositions of Calvinism? You don't have to explain them right now. Just list them.

Stranger
 

Steve Owen

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And I never claimed Augustine rejected Substitution. I said he strongly rejected the idea Christ had to die to satisfy God (much less divine justice). So he did not affirm Penal Substitution Theory.
The extract from Augustine speaks of Penal Substitution. Here it is again:

'But as Christ endured death as man, and for man; so also, Son of God as He was, ever living in His own righteousness, but dying for our offences, He submitted as man, and for man, to bear the curse which accompanies death. And as He died in the flesh which He took in bearing our punishment, so also, while ever blessed in His own righteousness, He was cursed for our offenses, in the death which He suffered in bearing our punishment.'

He bore the 'curse which accompanies death.' Whose curse is that? It's the curse of God against sin. 'He was cursed for our offences.' Christ bore that curse so that we do not have to. What is the curse? 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.....' So Christ endured the pains of hell on the cross as well as separation from His father. Penal Substitution.
 

Willie T

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You believe I posted that Calvinists are racists?????

This is the problem with how you read Scripture as well, Steve. You read into it what is not there.
I don't care too much, one way or another, about this fight you guys brought over here (except that I do think Calvin was a power hungry fanatic), but you are absolutely right in this specific point. You never even came close to saying the things Owen chose to read into that post.
 

Steve Owen

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You believe I posted that Calvinists are racists?????

This is the problem with how you read Scripture as well, Steve. You read into it what is not there.
John Caldwell said:
Some of the klan people read that white people were God's chosen and minorities bore the mark of Cain. They passed out fliers explaining Scripture to defend their hatred.

I learned at an early age how presuppositions color peoples understanding. Without addressing the flawed philosophies and ideologies I do not think the Word could ever come through (they only read hated into the biblical text).

The same is true with Calvinism
 
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