Once Saved Always Saved ?

I'm mostly in agreement with you, seektruth.I wrote this earlier this month about a discussion on this very topic:-----Last night in small group, the topic was brought up about whether or not one can lose their salvation.This is a hot debate in the Christian church for some reason. Can someone lose their salvation.Well, when it comes to whether or not someone who is a Christian and is constantly seeking God's favor, even if they struggle with sins or addictions - they are saved. A man with a drug problem and a heart for God still has God in him, which makes him want to be a better person, even if it's a long, difficult journey fraught with failures.This is proven by the well known Bible verse that says nothing can separate us from the love of God. God never expected His people to be perfect and never mess up. It's your heart that determines your salvation.But the question is often brought up in reference to some individual who claims to have been an earnest Christian, fell away, renounced, and joined Wicca or Atheism or something like that.Many Christians hold the belief that "Once saved, always saved," meaning either that this person who has renounced Christianity will still be saved and sent to Heaven, even if he devotes the rest of his life to destroying the Christian faith, or that person was never really a Christian, he just thought he was.I don't buy that.The Bible is not clear on this. There are many verses that suggest both sides of the argument.But I've come to the following conclusion: It doesn't matter.Think about it. If you are a Christian, you're going to Heaven. If you are someone who left the Christian faith and no longer believes, you no longer believe in nor expect to go to Heaven. So, what do either of you care?Neither situation holds any relation to the other.The only important thing to know is that no outside force, including our own sins, can erase our salvation when we are earnest believers.In other words, if you want to be a Christian, no one or nothing will (nor can) come and kick you out of the faith. That's all that matters.-----Thanks!

Yes I agree with OSAS being a false doctrine... This verse hits the nail on the head.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Wow so many in agreement that is great to see very nice posts I am in agreement here

I agree too!! that must be a recrd of some kind lol...but....hehe...I disagree with OSAS, not with the Preservation of the Saints....many want to say that if a person says a prayer, walks down an aisle to an altar call, raises their hand one time at an evangelists tent meeting, etc etc etc... That this means they are eternally saved no matter how they live their lives.... not true!!! a true converted Christian does not want to continue to sin or want to live a sinful lifestyle... of course we all do sin, but what is a person's heart like after sinning? is it broken over displeasing God? Is it repentant? This is the Christian's heart. A person does not become a Christian and then lose their salvation every time they sin. So the issue is not sin per se, for every single Christian sins and will continue to sin throughout their lives. But rather, what is their attitude towards their sin, that is the question. But I believe the bible teaches that those who are truly Christ's can never ever be totally lost. Jesus promises that those who are His will not be lost, in fact, Jesus said that only those who are like Judas, sons of destruction or perdition, will be lost... John 17:7-12 (ESV) 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."..... how much more secure could you be!?!? And since salvation was never merely the result of our willing in the first place, Romans 9:14-16 (ESV) 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." ...... but is rather of God choosing us, not our choosing God, Romans 9:18 (ESV) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ..... salvation is secure because God does not change His mind once He chooses someone to be His child, He does not rescind on His promises and then suddenly say "you are no longer my child". If a person's initial salvation is all of grace, due to God's choosing us rather than our choosing Him, though of course we do choose God, but we only do so when God gives us the ability to come to Him.... John 6:44 (ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." and John 6:64-65 (ESV) 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” then a person persevering to the end is also all of grace, Philippians 2:12-13 (ESV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."...and since neither of these things can be done on our own without grace, then salvation is secure, not because we hold on to God, but because He holds on to us.so "Once Saved Always Saved" as defined above is a false doctrine, but the preservation of the saints is true doctrine...blessings,ken

It is interesting that few today understand this “milk” issue, because so many have translated it to mean “ eternal judgment,” as if to say that the divine judgment can never correct a sinner, nor will he ever repent, nor will every knee bow and confess Him to be Lord. It is sad that we wouldhave to return to teaching milk today, after nearly 2,000 years of Church teaching. This shows the immaturity of the Church, according to the standard found in the book of Hebrews 6:4-6 says, 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. These verses have been an unnecessary and tragic source of terror to many backslidden believers. It seems that many preachers have used fear tactics in the attempt to keep people from leaving the Church denominations. They tell people that if they leave the Church, they will surely be burned in hell forever, and that they will not be allowed a second chance for salvation even a day after they back slide. This is one of the cruelest teachings in the Church. It is comparable to saying that once Israel backslid in the book of Judges, God would never be able to take them back. But we see the people repenting toward the end of each of the captivities, and God never had any problem sending deliverers (judges) to renew their relationship with God. The law of God tells us that when the people sinned, God would send them into captivity, but when they repented, God would reverse their captivity (Lev. 26:40-42). We need patience and endurance to obtain the full promise of the feast of Tabernacles—that is, to be an overcomer. This is one of the most misunderstood ideas in the book of Hebrews, because so few understand the distinction between a believer and an overcomer. They do not know the difference between a citizen of the Kingdom and a ruler in the Kingdom. Without knowing this distinction, one side argues that “once saved, always saved,” while the opposing view argues that one must “endure to the end to be saved.” Both sides make this an issue of salvation, when in fact it is an issue of whichfeast one is fulfilling. The Church in the wilderness under Moses was “saved” (justified by faith), but they were neither filled with the Spirit (by rejecting Pentecost at Sinai), nor did they receive the promise of Tabernacles, which is the glorified body. Once we understand that there are three feasts of Israel which we may experience, then it is plain that not every believer is at the same place in his/her Christian walk. If a believer wants to inherit the first resurrection and reign with Christ during the thousand-year Age to come, he must endure to the end. In the context of the book of Hebrews, he cannot revert back to Judaism and still hope to be an overcomer. The example of Abraham refers specifically to the promise of Sonship, for Abraham was promised a son. In fact, he was promised many sons and a multitude of nations. This promise of Sonship was part of the birthright passed down from Abraham to Isaac and then to Jacob. Jacob gave it to his son, Joseph (1 Chron. 5:1, 2), of whom it was said, “Joseph is a fruitful son” [Heb. ben].Logabe

Well I hate to stop this record but I believe once God has made a person His child and sealed that person with the Holy Spirit He will not turn His back on that child.Under the gospel of God's grace we are not saved by what we do. We are saved because of what Jesus (God) did on the cross. --- We are not saved because we are wonderful and working to try not to sin. We are saved because God knows we cannot keep from sinning and therefore made a way for sinners to be saved by believing in Him and His work of salavtion.I understand the general belief that a sinful person in the flesh is made sinless in the flesh over time. But I disagree with it. No one has ever been made sinless in the flesh. Many think they are being saved by what they do. That is a false theology. It is because of what God did on the cross, PERIOD.I believe this but many don't. I have faith, trust, confidence and hope in the work of God but many only have those things in their own work at salvation.Richard

Richard, I have to agree with you. When we begin to takeit into man's hands, no one will be saved. But, when wegive it to God and what He has done "ALL CAN BE SAVED".It's not about what we do...it's about what God has done. I like what you said Richard. Keep up the good work.Logabe

While I agree with Richard on the source of our salvation, must agree with the others that there are consequences for our sins, both here and eternally. In some aspects both sides are correct.Adam, Satan himself and some would argue Judas are examples from the Bible of beings who were in a "saved" status with God but then fell away, some to eternal damnation. Regardless of the end result, they all experienced temporal and eternal consequences for their choices. Such consequences would not include every choice we make or even every sin we commit, but certainly some choices and some sins would have to matter in order to be able for us to speak of there being JusticeWhile the picture of God as a Loving Father of His Children is certainly a comfort to us and in my view True of us all (all of Humanity are His children), we should not over look the difference between a father and a Creator. Justice demands consequences for our actions from our Creator, which has nothing to do with how it is now possible we as humans are able to be "saved", which is solely because of the act of one Man.In the types of salvific acts portrayed in the OT with the Children of Israel, people had to "do something" (don't look back, blood of the Lamb above the door, look at the snake...etc).The gift was freely given for ALL, but action was still required. Those who did not act accordingly were not "saved". And we note this need to "act" occurs repeatedly with Israel after they repeatedly turned away from God, sometimes several times within the same generations. These were His chosen but there were still consequences for sin.A plan of salvation is incomplete in my view if there is no Justice. Justice demands consequence for sin, no matter who the sinner is.

I am all for social moral teachings, but not in the same context with salvation.The story Jesus told of the wedding feast is exactly what salvation under grace is all about. The one that was thrown out is one that refused the wedding garment (righteousness as a gift) that was freely given by the host and perfered to wear his own garment (his own righteousness).Again, we are not saved by what we do but by what God has done on the cross. To try and add our works as a requirement is to say, to God, that His work was not enough. All glory for our salvation is to be given to God. As Paul said, if I glory in anything it will be the work of God on the cross.Richard

That is all well and good Richard, but am not sure who teaches that. To say the Catholic Church and Saint James or even other faiths that teach the need for works, that such are all teaching works based salvation is a mis-representation of their teaching. Works our necessary but only Jesus saves is overly simplistic, but a more accurate representation. The relevant question in this thread would be is there anything a child of God (and in this case my definition includes all of us, all of humanity, whether claiming to be saved or not) can do in this life to guarantee rejection by God in the next? I say yes. God said if you reject me before men, I will reject you in the end. He did not caveat that I am only speaking with the unsaved. In fact it would rather silly to say to the unsaved you better not reject me. And I do not think that is the only example of an act that would suffice or merit rejection. I think the 10 rules He gave us would be a good place to look.To me it is clear we could all do things in this life that will effect our eternal destination and our freedom to do those things is not thwarted by a claim of salvation. The other side of these sins is that Jesus also made it possible for us to be forgiven when we commit such acts, but we have to ask for it and honestly be sorry that we did it. At least that is my belief and that of my Church.

Well to those who disagree to quote logabe you are in the milk of men you do not understand at all the scripture says you have a promise of salvation .IF...IF thats if you carry out your part... God never breaks his Word but you can break yours ...and most will ... When they follow antichrist thinking he is christ you worship a false god because you did not read what God warnings to you ... What will God say when you??????? Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? This is not unbelievers these are believers ... Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is not OSAS do not delude youself lest you be caught in this trap Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

QUOTE (Christina;66612)
Well to those who disagree to quote logabe you are in the milk you do not understand at all the scripture says you have a promise of salvation .IF...IF thats if you carry out your part... God never breaks his Word but you can break yours ...and most will ... When they follow antichrist thinking he is christ you worship a false god because you did not read what God warnings to you ... What will God say when you claim to be a believer doing good works Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? This is not unbelievers these are believers ... This is not OSAS do not delude youself lest you be caught in this trap
Great post Christina. I'll add a couple more verses for your perspective... I mean God's Words.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.Matthew 15:8 - This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

unfortunately, those who want to appeal to Hebrews 6:4-6 as a proof text that people can lose their salvation, I hope they really contemplate what they are saying, and what they think that this section of scripture says, and what it would imply. In part, this passage says Hebrews 6:4-6 says,"and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance," ..... did ya catch that...? If this verse is saying that a person can lose their salvation, that they have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent and come back to the Lord. But the Arminian doctrine says that a person CAN be truly saved, fall completely away, and then repent and come back to the lord again!!! This passage proves far more than those who deny the eternal preservation of the saints want to say.... I don't really think they care to live with the ramifications of their doctrine.... true salvation will always result in good works, but god works is never the basis for salvation..... since you cannot do anything to earn your salvation as it is due solely to God's grace and mercy in the first place, you cannot lose it because God does not rescind on His promises, He is faithful even when we are not. In Him there is no shadow of turning, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And we know that the Son always prays in accordance to the Father's will. The Son prayed that all that are His will be with Him in heaven. I can't imagine the Father not honoring that prayer. Jesus will see us through, He intercedes for the saints even now. My confidence is with Jesus' impeccability, not my peccability. blessings,ken

(epistemaniac;66615)
unfortunately, those who want to appeal to Hebrews 6:4-6 as a proof text that people can lose their salvation, I hope they really contemplate what they are saying, and what they think that this section of scripture says, and what it would imply. In part, this passage says Hebrews 6:4-6 says,"and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance," ..... did ya catch that...? If this verse is saying that a person can lose their salvation, that they have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent and come back to the Lord. ......blessings,ken
It is not impossibe for people who have fallen away from the Lord to come back to the Lord... And the Lord can heal their backsliding. (Hosea 14:4) And you certainly can lose your salvation (Matthew 7:21-23)

(waquinas;66604)
That is all well and good Richard, but am not sure who teaches that. To say the Catholic Church and Saint James or even other faiths that teach the need for works, that such are all teaching works based salvation is a mis-representation of their teaching. Works our necessary but only Jesus saves is overly simplistic, but a more accurate representation. The relevant question in this thread would be is there anything a child of God (and in this case my definition includes all of us, all of humanity, whether claiming to be saved or not) can do in this life to guarantee rejection by God in the next? I say yes. God said if you reject me before men, I will reject you in the end. He did not caveat that I am only speaking with the unsaved. In fact it would rather silly to say to the unsaved you better not reject me. And I do not think that is the only example of an act that would suffice or merit rejection. I think the 10 rules He gave us would be a good place to look.To me it is clear we could all do things in this life that will effect our eternal destination and our freedom to do those things is not thwarted by a claim of salvation. The other side of these sins is that Jesus also made it possible for us to be forgiven when we commit such acts, but we have to ask for it and honestly be sorry that we did it. At least that is my belief and that of my Church.
The problem with this is that men do not see their sins. They are like the Pharasees, in that they think they no longer sin. Since they think they no longer sin they really don't have any sins to repent of. -- It seem to me that those that advocate works are the ones that think they do not sin and that the others do.Richard

Moses' house was the house of Israel, but Christ's house is greater, because as the incarnation of Yahweh, He is the one who actually built Moses' house.Hebrews 3:5-6 says, 5 Now Moses was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Moses represents the faithful servant in contrast to Christ, who was the faithful Son. So here we have the servant and son relationship, which extends to us as well. Moses, representing the Old Covenant, is a faithful servant. He had a great calling. But Christ representing the New Covenant,is the faithful Son with a greater calling. The important thing to note is verse 6, where he says, “Whose house are we, IF...” So being a part of God's house is conditional. “If we hold fast our confidence,” if we endure “unto the end,” then we are part of God's house. In other words, it is not simply a question of being “saved,” or justified by faith, which is one's Passover experience. The author here is saying that to be part of God's house, one must continue on the journey from Egypt all the way to the Promised Land. One must go beyond Passover into Pentecost and finally into the Feast of Tabernacles. This is really the first of many references about enduring to the end, which have been taken by some theologians and scholars of the past as an indication that people can lose their salvation. In other words, they say, “If you don't endure to the end, you are not saved.” These theologians, I believe, have misunderstood these passages. They have made it a matter of salvation, because they do not understand the difference between a servant and a Son. Both a servant and a son are believers in Christ. They are both a part of God's household in some way. But in God's household, there are both servants and sons. Not every believer is a son. Some believers are just servants. This is illustrated by the fact that Israel under Moses was a servant nation. The people were supposed to be like Moses—the faithful servant. Moses was the head of this Servant Class, being the administrator of the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant, we are under a new Head, Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God, not merely a servant. We who are of His household, as distinct from Moses, can come into sonship. While Judah held the Dominion Mandate (Gen. 49:10), Joseph held the Fruitfulness Mandate known as Sonship, for we read in Gen. 49:22, 22 Joseph is a fruitful bough [Heb. ben, “SON”], a fruitful bough by a spring; its branches run over a wall. When someone becomes a believer in Jesus Christ, the One born in Bethlehem of Judah, and when one accepts His work on the cross, which He accomplished to fulfill the calling given to Judah, such a believer identifies with Jesus Christ in His role as the Suffering Servant. It is the beginning of His Christian walk. Like the Israelites of old, such a person has left Egypt (the world) by the power of the blood of the Lamb. A believer becomes God's servant through the feast of Passover when he is justified by faith in the blood of the Lamb. However, this is not the end of the journey, nor is it the height of any man's personal relationship with God. The believer then must pass through the Red Sea of water baptism and must receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Mount Sinai) in order to walk in the light of Pentecost. The purpose of Pentecost is to write the law in our hearts and thereby learn obedience as good and faithful servants. Servants are sons-in-training. The purpose of the law is to train God's servants for Sonship. It is a time of learning to hear His voice and to respond in obedience. It is a time of discipline, by which we are conformed into His image, and by which we put on the mind of Christ. This is true Pentecost. The feast itself involved offering to God two loaves of bread baked with leaven. The true Pentecostal is that leavened bread, and the leaven (sin, corruption) is killed by the baptism of fire as it is baked. So it is not that a person will lose his salvation but he will losehis reward of the Tabernacles Age. They will be saved from the"Lake of Fire" but they will still need correction @ the Great WhiteThrone. 1st Cor. 3:13-15 says,13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.Logabe

(RichardBurger;66628)
The problem with this is that men do not see their sins. They are like the Pharasees, in that they think they no longer sin. Since they think they no longer sin they really don't have any sins to repent of. -- It seem to me that those that advocate works are the ones that think they do not sin and that the others do.Richard
that has not been my experience in life or on this website

(epistemaniac;66615)
unfortunately, those who want to appeal to Hebrews 6:4-6 as a proof text that people can lose their salvation, I hope they really contemplate what they are saying, and what they think that this section of scripture says, and what it would imply. In part, this passage says Hebrews 6:4-6 says,"and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance," ..... did ya catch that...? If this verse is saying that a person can lose their salvation, that they have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent and come back to the Lord. But the Arminian doctrine says that a person CAN be truly saved, fall completely away, and then repent and come back to the lord again!!! This passage proves far more than those who deny the eternal preservation of the saints want to say.... I don't really think they care to live with the ramifications of their doctrine.... true salvation will always result in good works, but god works is never the basis for salvation..... since you cannot do anything to earn your salvation as it is due solely to God's grace and mercy in the first place, you cannot lose it because God does not rescind on His promises, He is faithful even when we are not. In Him there is no shadow of turning, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And we know that the Son always prays in accordance to the Father's will. The Son prayed that all that are His will be with Him in heaven. I can't imagine the Father not honoring that prayer. Jesus will see us through, He intercedes for the saints even now. My confidence is with Jesus' impeccability, not my peccability. blessings,ken
well yes, since the writer in Hebrew is speaking of baptism it is easy to see why it could be misunderstood taken out of context. The writer is recognizing there is renewal accompany baptism that is possible only once, it is not possible to re-baptize someone that has fallen away, basically thrown away the gift they have been given and have that gift offered again. It does not however say they cannot be forgiven. This forms the basis for why some Churches will not re-baptize people joining the Church when they have been baptized before.No matter how one views that verse, everyone should note it clearly indicates people can fall away. "Whose end is to be burned" certainly sounds bad for them.

At the end of the last post is where the problembegins. The Church, which does not like to be baked in the baptism of fire. It is too painful, too difficult. We would rather be presented to God without being baked. We want the good things of God but are less willing to submit to the disciplines inherent in Pentecost—which are revealed in Israel 's example under Moses. Hebrews 2, then, tells us that we can be of Christ's household of SONS, if we are willing to endure to the end, going all the way to the Promised Land. If not, we remain in the household of Moses as a servant class. This issue does not determine who is a believer or an unbeliever. It determines who is a servant or a son in the Tabernacles Age to come. Those who qualify as sons are the overcomers, who “will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6). These will inherit the first resurrection, while the rest of the believers, as Jesus said in Luke 12:46, will receive their reward “with the unbelievers” at the Great White Throne. And so the author of Hebrews sets before us an admonishment to move out of Moses' household into that of Jesus Christ. It is a call not only to go beyond the Old Covenant into the New, but also a call to go beyond Pentecost into Tabernacles, or from servanthood to Sonship. Rev. 21:7 says, 7 He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. Logabe