CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
It would just be a repeat of everything I've already quoted scripture on, and now everyone has me on ignore. The truth hurts. Nobody wants to come into the light out of the darkness they love.
Calvinism
- Thread starter John Caldwell
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It would just be a repeat of everything I've already quoted scripture on, and now everyone has me on ignore. The truth hurts. Nobody wants to come into the light out of the darkness they love.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Alot of truth there. What can you say to a controlled mind.....the truth is just static to them.
I'm certainly not trying to ignore. Do you believe these men do not represent what Christ came to do? Or were you looking for information concerning them?
Stranger
Absolutely. I have spent a lot of time reading the Puritans and have been hugely blessed by them, But every so often, one comes across something that makes me realise that they didn't always get things right. We are to be Bereans and check everything we read against Scripture.
John Newton wrote. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." The Reformers and Puritans were giants in the faith, but that does not mean that we cannot see further than they, by learning from them and seeing if there are not some areas where they fell short.
It will not surprise you to know that I do not believe there are verses which refute Calvinism. I was saved in a 'broad' evangelical church that was Arminian in doctrine and I came to believe in what I prefer to call Definite Redemption mostly by reading the Bible. I certainly didn't learn it in church.
There are texts which refer to Christ dying for, or 'drawing,' 'all' people (eg. 2 Cor. 5:14; John 12:32) and there are those which describe Him as saving 'His people' (Matthew 1:21) or 'His sheep.' (John 10;15). The task of the Bible student is to reconcile these things, for the Bible does not contradict itself. All I will say at this point is that 'all' has to be qualified in some way unless one believes that every single person in the world is going to be saved.
I am very happy to discuss these things further, so long as it can be done in a friendly, civilized manner.
Of the five you mention, I would definitely say Calvin, though I would read his commentaries or his sermons rather than the Institutes. But I would prefer to point you to the Puritans.
Try John Bunyan. Read Pilgrim's Progress, The Jerusalem Sinner saved, Come and Welcome to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Other good Puritan books include Christ set Forth by Thomas Goodwin and An Alarm to the Unconverted by Joseph Alleine.
All these books are available in paperback at good prices from Banner of Truth.
Yes, The Institutes of Christian Religion is an absolute mess to try to wade through — and Calvin comes off pretty arrogantly dismissive of anyone else all through the four books of it.
Well, I have to come clean here and say that I haven't read much of it. If you want a good book on theology, try Thomas Watson's A Body of Divinity; but from what I have read, with Calvin you're not left scratching your head and thinking, "I wonder what he meant by that!" He's very direct and calls a spade a spade.
One thing you need to understand is that the early Reformers hadn't cottoned onto the idea of religious liberty. Calvin's idea was that there would be one Presbyterian Church in Geneva, and if you didn't like it, go and live somewhere else. It was just the same with the English Reformers and John Knox in Scotland. They were men of their time. 'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.'
I'm about half-way through reading The Institutes for the third time, and I have to admit that I really have no true understanding of what he tried to say. (It has always taken me about a month to read through it.)
You don't have to read it in Latin. There are English translations.
But seriously, he is often addressing things which were relevant in the 16th Century, but which everyone has forgotten about now.
Seriously, I have tried to find The Institutes in MODERN English... and I can only find 'Book First.'
Quam legere Latine est anima mea oblitus.
Quam legere Latine est anima mea oblitus.
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Right now I've got two books: sermons by John Wesley, and his life story.
Wesley is great! His love for his Lord and his zeal for the lost are examples to us all. He rode around 100,000 miles up and down Britain to preach the Gospel, and was excluded from many Anglican churches for preaching free grace and salvation by faith.
I love the story (not sure if it's true) of when he preached at a posh church in Oxford where several retired Bishops, wealthy clergymen and luminaries of the University were in attendance. He selected for his text Matthew 23:33. 'Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?' According to the account I read, he 'flayed the congregation mercilessly and they gnashed their teeth at him.' At the close of the service, a wealthy lady came up to him and said, "Mr Wesley, how dare you preach such things to us? If you speak to us like that, what would you say to the fish porters at Billingsgate?" "Ah, Madam," he replied, "To them I would have preached, 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'"
So I'm a big fan. Not quite so keen on all his theology, but hey! No one's perfect.
No problem! I just now saw this, so I withdraw my previous statement!
The things you have said have been refuted time and again, but please feel free to share them.
Just don't get frustrated when you get the same responses.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Which theology of his didn't you agree with. I'll see if I can find a sermon on it in the book. So far I've picked the ones I wanted to read.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
As I recall you are the one I've made the most posts to, but you never referred to any of the verses I quoted. Why tell you them again just to get ignored?
Because I would be more than happy to deal with the text of Scripture; if I missed anything it was not my intention.
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