Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

Stranger said:

But (Rom. 5:13-14) proves your belief wrong.

Click to expand...

Just saying that to me isn't going to prove anything. Show how it proves my belief wrong. Because I don't think that it does. Don't be lazy; put some effort into your answer.

Stranger said:

You have not explained why did those die from Adam to Moses when God did not impute their sins to them. Still waiting.

Click to expand...

Because they sinned; and died for their own sins.

Consider that God didn't impute their sins to them because there was no law.

In Romans 2:12, it is written,

Rom 2:12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The answer to your question is that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) whether sin is imputed or not imputed.

Stranger said:

(Deut. 24:16) does not come against the substitutionary death of Christ. Your attempt to use it to disprove imputation does. You say, based on (Deut. 24:16), that every man dies for his own sins. Well, you must reject then that Christ died for our sins.

Click to expand...

How do you figure? I never thought that Deuteronomy 24:16 came against the substitutionary death of Christ. I just don't see how taking the verse literally with the understanding that every man dies for his own sin (not for Adam's) in any way denies the fact of the substitutionary death of Christ. So you're going to have to elaborate on how you think it does.

I do believe that God can impute righteousness to us and not impute sin to us even if Adam's sin is not imputed to us but we die for our own sin. Do you think that in order for God to impute righteousness to us, and for Him not to impute sin to us, that it is necessary for Adam's sin to be also imputed to us? I do not see that as being logical; neither do I see it as being the scriptural view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 shows simply that we die for sins that we commit; and yes we inherited sin from Adam: it was the propensity for sin that we were born into: we come out of the womb speaking lies (Psalms 58:3). We do not die for Adam's sin but our own. The only sense in which we die for Adam's sin is in that in eating of the tree, he partook of the sin DNA that was in that fruit; and that sin DNA was passed down to us through heredity. So we are sinners by birth. But we will not be punished for Adam's sin; no, rather we will be punished for sins that we ourselves committed; not for the sins of our fathers.

Eze 18:1, The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
Eze 18:2, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4, Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Stranger said:

Yes, you see it. You just ignore it.

Click to expand...

Explain to me what it is that you think that I am ignoring; and I will tell you whether I saw it before.

Stranger said:

Save your hypocritical love for someone else.

Click to expand...

@marks is no hypocrite; from what I have seen he has been exemplary in both doctrine and behaviour.

justbyfaith said:

Just saying that to me isn't going to prove anything. Show how it proves my belief wrong. Because I don't think that it does. Don't be lazy; put some effort into your answer.



Because they sinned; and died for their own sins.

Consider that God didn't impute their sins to them because there was no law.

In Romans 2:12, it is written,

Rom 2:12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The answer to your question is that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) whether sin is imputed or not imputed.



How do you figure? I never thought that Deuteronomy 24:16 came against the substitutionary death of Christ. I just don't see how taking the verse literally with the understanding that every man dies for his own sin (not for Adam's) in any way denies the fact of the substitutionary death of Christ. So you're going to have to elaborate on how you think it does.

I do believe that God can impute righteousness to us and not impute sin to us even if Adam's sin is not imputed to us but we die for our own sin. Do you think that in order for God to impute righteousness to us, and for Him not to impute sin to us, that it is necessary for Adam's sin to be also imputed to us? I do not see that as being logical; neither do I see it as being the scriptural view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 shows simply that we die for sins that we commit; and yes we inherited sin from Adam: it was the propensity for sin that we were born into: we come out of the womb speaking lies (Psalms 58:3). We do not die for Adam's sin but our own. The only sense in which we die for Adam's sin is in that in eating of the tree, he partook of the sin DNA that was in that fruit; and that sin DNA was passed down to us through heredity. So we are sinners by birth. But we will not be punished for Adam's sin; no, rather we will be punished for sins that we ourselves committed; not for the sins of our fathers.

Eze 18:1, The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
Eze 18:2, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4, Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



Explain to me what it is that you think that I am ignoring; and I will tell you whether I saw it before.

Click to expand...

I have showed you many times. See post #(225,272)

You don't understand, (ignore), (pervert), 'imputation'. (Rom. 5:13-14) is explaining (Rom. 5:12). Note the word 'For' in (13). It is proving that Adams sin was imputed to the whole race of man. Because even though between Adam and Moses God did not impute their sins to them, they still died. Note the word 'Nevertheless' in (14). They died, nevertheless. Because of Adams sin.

If they died for their own sins, as you are claiming, then there is no reason for (5:13-14). If they died for their own sins, as you say, then there is no imputation. If God says you are going to die for your own even though I don't impute them to you, there is no imputation.

Thus, just as I have always said you believe, there is no substitutionary death of Christ imputed to you. If they died for their own, then you will die for your own. There is no righteousness of Christ imputed to you. You walk in your own. Which is exactly what you want to do and what you want other believers to do.

You deny the imputation of Adams sin to man. But you want the imputation of Christ's righteousness imputed to you. Yet you in reality deny it also. What a piece of work you are.

Imputation destroys your legalism. Destroy's your error.

I have explained (Deut. 24:16) in post #(279). Go back and reread. Not that it will do any good.

That the wages of sin is death is not the point or denied. Just smoke. Your denial of imputation is the point.

Stranger

Stranger said:

No, you miss it entirely. They died not for their sins but because of the sin of Adam.

Click to expand...

Hi Stranger,

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I'm looking at this passage. Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Through Adam sin entered, and then everyone else sinned too. In one sense we're born dead. We're born into corruption. And being born into corruption, we Will physically die. And being born corrupted, we Will sin. And that will be the death of us.

It looks like we're debating Federalism? That Adam was the Federal Head of Humanity, just as Jesus is the Federal Head of the New Humanity?

Except that the son does not die for the sins of the father. And the transgression is not like the free gift. So these are a couple of things I look at.

I've been on both sides of this one in the past.

No need to get unfriendly!

Stranger said:

You are basing your belief on the act of the person and not the act of God as given us in Scripture. You are rejecting the doctrine of imputation as given in Scripture.

Click to expand...

Not sure what you are talking about here.

Again, if you want to discuss the imputation of Adam's sin to all humanity, perhaps you could start with these Scriptures that you see teaching it.

Like I said, I've been on both sides before, so I'm interested in the topic. Except before you just outright say something like, You are rejecting . . ., perhaps more like a question? Less like an accusation?

Much love!

Enoch111 said:

It would appear that large numbers of Christians are opposed to the Gospel truth of imputed righteousness, and sincerely believe that they must add their own righteousness to the righteousness of Christ (or apart from the righteousness of Christ) in order to be accepted into Heaven. Many even falsely believe that water baptism saves them.

Imputed righteousness is so foreign to human experience that if we did not have the Word of God to show us that God literally credits the righteousness of Christ to every believer’s spiritual account, none of us would believe it.

But imputed righteousness cannot be isolated from justification by grace through faith. Therefore if we believe that God justifies the ungodly because they have trusted wholly in Christ and His finished work of redemption, then we must also believe that at that very moment God places the *robe* of the righteousness of Christ upon the one who repents and believes God.

We first read of imputed righteousness in the Old Testament, but it is brought out clearly in the New Testament in the account of Abel, who was murdered by his brother Cain: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.(Heb 11:4) In the same way Noah was deemed righteous because he believed, trusted, and obeyed God, his obedience being the outcome of his faith: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen 6:8) We see here that grace and faith are connected.

But the Holy Spirit uses the example of Abraham as the man who was justified by grace through faith, and to whom God imputed righteousness when he believed God: And, behold, the Word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.And He brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He [the LORD] counted it to him for righteousness.

Thus the Holy Spirit also inspired Paul to take Abraham’s example and apply it to every believer in Romans 4. While the New Testament speaks of this critical matter in several places, it is in the fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans that Paul – under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit – explains the meaning of imputed righteousness.

ROMANS 4
JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS WOULD GLORIFY MAN
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND WAS DEEMED RIGHTEOUS
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

GRACE IS EXCLUDED WHEN MEN BRING THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS TO GOD
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

WORKS ARE EXCLUDED WHEN GOD JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

CIRCUMCISION DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

CIRCUMCISION SHOULD ONLY BE A SIGN OF FAITH
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

TORAH OBSERVANCE DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE RIGHTEOUS
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

JUSTIFICATION IS PURELY BY GOD'S GRACE THROUGH FAITH
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

ABRAHAM’S FAITH WAS STRONG AND GAVE GLORY TO GOD
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

ABRAHAM’S FAITH WAS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

EVERY BELIEVER’S FAITH IN CHRIST IS ALSO IMPUTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Click to expand...

“Work out your salvation with fear” is what some think is cause for works instead of imputed righteousness

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

There was sin, and even though that sin was not imputed, still the Law of Sin and Death, that is, the principle of "the soul that sins shall die" was in effect, being a natural consequence of sin.

The soul that sinned died, even though that sin was not judicially imputed to them.

Much love!

Stranger said:

Note the word 'For' in (13). It is proving that Adams sin was imputed to the whole race of man.

Click to expand...

For until the law sin was in the world...

It appears to me to be saying that the sin DNA was passed down from Adam to us. Sin was in the world....indwelling sin pervaded the lives of every human being.

Stranger said:

Note the word 'Nevertheless' in (14). They died, nevertheless. Because of Adams sin.

Click to expand...

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...

It appears here to be saying that death reigned from Adam to Moses in spite of what was written before...that sin was not imputed because there was no law. In other words, the wages of sin was still death even though sin was not imputed to them.

And also, since sin was not imputed to them (Romans 5:13b), how then could Adam's sin have been imputed to them? For Adam's sin was sin.

Stranger said:

If they died for their own sins, as you are claiming, then there is no reason for (5:13-14). If they died for their own sins, as you say, then there is no imputation. If God says you are going to die for your own even though I don't impute them to you, there is no imputation.

Thus, just as I have always said you believe, there is no substitutionary death of Christ imputed to you.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, you are still going to have to explain your position better. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong...just that you aren't making your case clearly enough for me to see your pov.

Stranger said:

If they died for their own, then you will die for your own. There is no righteousness of Christ imputed to you. You walk in your own. Which is exactly what you want to do and what you want other believers to do.

Click to expand...

I will die for my own sin if I don't have the imputed righteousness of Christ. But if I do have it, I will not die for anyone's sin. My last breath on earth will be my first breath in heaven. The fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed and sin is not imputed to me: 1) means that Adam's sin is not imputed to me, since Adam's sin is sin; and, 2) it does not mean that Adam's sin is imputed to me. The fact that I won't die for Adam's sin in no way means that Christ's righteousness cannot be imputed to me so that sin is not imputed to me (including Adam's sin).

Stranger said:

You deny the imputation of Adams sin to man. But you want the imputation of Christ's righteousness imputed to you. Yet you in reality deny it also.

Click to expand...

Show me. You have not made your case clearly enough. If you are right and I am wrong, I would love to come over to the correct side of the issue. But I need for you to think more concisely about your answers and show clearly that what you are saying is the case; instead of making general statements of condemnation without really backing them up with any kind of logic. God said, "Come, let us reason together..." I would love to come to the knowledge of your truth through logical reasoning, if in fact your position is the truth.

From #272:

Stranger said:

This is good news to all but the legalizer who wants his righteousness seen.

Click to expand...

Even when men try to hide their righteous works when they do them, they cannot be hidden:

1Ti 5:24, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Ti 5:25, Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

There is also a proper motivation for wanting your righteousness/works to be seen:

Mat 5:16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

justbyfaith said:

For until the law sin was in the world...

It appears to me to be saying that the sin DNA was passed down from Adam to us. Sin was in the world....indwelling sin pervaded the lives of every human being.



Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...

It appears here to be saying that death reigned from Adam to Moses in spite of what was written before...that sin was not imputed because there was no law. In other words, the wages of sin was still death even though sin was not imputed to them.

And also, since sin was not imputed to them (Romans 5:13b), how then could Adam's sin have been imputed to them? For Adam's sin was sin.



I'm sorry, you are still going to have to explain your position better. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong...just that you aren't making your case clearly enough for me to see your pov.



I will die for my own sin if I don't have the imputed righteousness of Christ. But if I do have it, I will not die for anyone's sin. My last breath on earth will be my first breath in heaven. The fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed and sin is not imputed to me: 1) means that Adam's sin is not imputed to me, since Adam's sin is sin; and, 2) it does not mean that Adam's sin is imputed to me. The fact that I won't die for Adam's sin in no way means that Christ's righteousness cannot be imputed to me so that sin is not imputed to me (including Adam's sin).



Show me. You have not made your case clearly enough. If you are right and I am wrong, I would love to come over to the correct side of the issue. But I need for you to think more concisely about your answers and show clearly that what you are saying is the case; instead of making general statements of condemnation without really backing them up with any kind of logic. God said, "Come, let us reason together..." I would love to come to the knowledge of your truth through logical reasoning, if in fact your position is the truth.

From #272:


Even when men try to hide their righteous works when they do them, they cannot be hidden:

1Ti 5:24, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Ti 5:25, Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

There is also a proper motivation for wanting your righteousness/works to be seen:

Mat 5:16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Click to expand...

You can make believe about DNA all you want. The point is that the sin of Adam is imputed to the whole human race simply because God imputes it. And when God does not impute sin, it is not imputed. Those who sinned from Adam to Moses did not have their sins imputed to them. Thus they are not imputed to them. Why? Because God says so.

Yet they died. Why? Because of Adams sin that was imputed to them. Not their own personal and daily sin.

Their sins were not imputed to them. Adams sin was imputed to them. You ask how? Simply because God says so.

Why do you trust Christ's righteousness being imputed to you when you don't believe the sins of those from Adam to Moses were not imputed to them as God says? And if you say their sins were not imputed to them, then why did they die?

No, you're lying now. I have showed you and you're doing your best to blow smoke. Go ahead and keep blowing smoke, but don't lie and say you would love to be on the correct side. Save your hypocrisy for another.

Stranger

Stranger said:

You can make believe about DNA all you want. The point is that the sin of Adam is imputed to the whole human race simply because God imputes it.

Click to expand...

We will have to agree to disagree.

Because you have not shown this clearly enough from scripture. Perhaps you should bring in another scripture into the equation. Surely there is more than just Romans 5:13-14 to substantiate your opinion; and also, that passage does not substantially validate your opinion.

Stranger said:

Those who sinned from Adam to Moses did not have their sins imputed to them. Thus they are not imputed to them. Why? Because God says so.

Click to expand...

Rom 5:13, (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14, Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was not imputed to them according to the passage. How is Adam's sin not included in that?

Stranger said:

Why do you trust Christ's righteousness being imputed to you when you don't believe the sins of those from Adam to Moses were not imputed to them as God says?

Click to expand...

Let me try and decipher your double-negative first. You are asking me why I believe the sins of them from Adam to Moses were imputed to them?

The answer is, I don't.

I believe that their sins were not imputed to them; but they died anyway: because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23): whether it it imputed or not (see Romans 2:12).

Stranger said:

And if you say their sins were not imputed to them, then why did they die?

Click to expand...

Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Stranger said:

No, you're lying now. I have showed you and you're doing your best to blow smoke. Go ahead and keep blowing smoke, but don't lie and say you would love to be on the correct side. Save your hypocrisy for another.

Click to expand...

Well, aren't you just the judge of everything. Next thing you'll be wanting me to bow down and worship you. You are not Jesus Christ.

And you are also wrong to call me a liar; because I am telling you the truth. You are taking on the nature of the accuser of the brethren in your accusation of me. But I have overcome you by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony!

Also, who doesn't want to be on the correct side of any debate? But you have not shown clearly that your side of the argument is the correct one. If you can show me clearly that I am wrong, I tell you verily (my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost) that I will believe the truth of the matter as soon as you can show me that it is the truth. If it is not the truth, then you will not be able to show that.

But apparently you just want to get into a fight. I will pray that the Lord receives you as a son (Hebrews 12:6).

justbyfaith said:

We will have to agree to disagree.

Because you have not shown this clearly enough from scripture. Perhaps you should bring in another scripture into the equation. Surely there is more than just Romans 5:13-14 to substantiate your opinion; and also, that passage does not substantially validate your opinion.



Rom 5:13, (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14, Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was not imputed to them according to the passage. How is Adam's sin not included in that?



Let me try and decipher your double-negative first. You are asking me why I believe the sins of them from Adam to Moses were imputed to them?

The answer is, I don't.

I believe that their sins were not imputed to them; but they died anyway: because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23): whether it it imputed or not (see Romans 2:12).



Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).



Well, aren't you just the judge of everything. Next thing you'll be wanting me to bow down and worship you. You are not Jesus Christ.

And you are also wrong to call me a liar; because I am telling you the truth. You are taking on the nature of the accuser of the brethren in your accusation of me. But I have overcome you by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony!

Also, who doesn't want to be on the correct side of any debate? But you have not shown clearly that your side of the argument is the correct one. If you can show me clearly that I am wrong, I tell you verily (my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost) that I will believe the truth of the matter as soon as you can show me that it is the truth. If it is not the truth, then you will not be able to show that.

But apparently you just want to get into a fight. I will pray that the Lord receives you as a son (Hebrews 12:6).

Click to expand...

My intent is to not get you to agree. It is just to show you are wrong.

Adams sin was the result of breaking a law of God. As a result, it was imputed to his race. (Rom. 5:12) As a result all men die. If Adams sin had not been imputed to his race, then none would have died from Adam to Moses. But they did. (Rom. 5:13-14).

(Rom. 2:12) and (6:3) has nothing to do with imputation. When you say those from Adam to Moses died because of their own sins, then you do not believe in imputation. You say you do, but you don't. For that is the point Paul is making. And just like you don't hold to the imputation of Adams sin, neither do you hold to the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Oh yes, you will throw a fit and say you do, but you don't.

You go by the name 'just by faith' but that is a facade. You are like so many who speak of faith and grace, but in reality yours is a doctrine of works and reward.

I have shown you that you are wrong already. You have admitted that you don't believe in the doctrine of imputation when you say those from Adam to Moses died for their own sins. Even when God did not impute them to them.

Stranger

Stranger said:

If Adams sin had not been imputed to his race, then none would have died from Adam to Moses.

Click to expand...

Why would they not have died?

The soul that sins shall die, is that not true?

Does not imputing sin make it so that the sin didn't happen?

Much love!

Stranger said:

My intent is to not get you to agree. It is just to show you are wrong.

Click to expand...

Nevertheless, you have not succeeded at doing that.

marks said:

Why would they not have died?

The soul that sins shall die, is that not true?

Does not imputing sin make it so that the sin didn't happen?

Much love!

Click to expand...

Because God did not impute their sin to them.

Imputation makes it so that what God sees and says does happen. Their sin did happen. God's not imputing it overruled it.

Spare me your remarks of 'much love'. I don't really believe it.

Stranger

justbyfaith said:

Nevertheless, you have not succeeded at doing that.

Click to expand...

Just put that lolipop back in our mouth.

Stranger

Stranger said:

Because God did not impute their sin to them.

Click to expand...

The passage says that sin was not imputed to them because there was no law. This includes Adam's sin.

Stranger said:

Spare me your remarks of 'much love'. I don't really believe it.

Click to expand...

I believe it!

Stranger said:

Just put that lolipop back in our mouth.

Click to expand...

God bless you.

Mat 18:2, And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The lollipop will fit in the mouth of only one of us.

justbyfaith said:

The passage says that sin was not imputed to them because there was no law. This includes Adam's sin.



I believe it!



God bless you.

Mat 18:3, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah. It was easier for you to respond to a post not addressed to you then to the one I addressed to you...wasn't it? #(289)

Go back and respond to what I said there.

All you are saying is you deny the imputation of God.

And spare me your attempt to make yourself look holy. You do enough of that with your name, 'justbyfaith'.

Stranger

Stranger said:

Oh yeah. It was easier for you to respond to a post not addressed to you then to the one I addressed to you...wasn't it? #(289)

Go back and respond to what I said there.

All you are saying is you deny the imputation of God.

Stranger

Click to expand...

My friend, I have answered all of your objections; you just don't want to see it.

And as for me, I prefer not to argue in circles.

justbyfaith said:

My friend, I have answered all of your objections; you just don't want to see it.

And as for me, I prefer not to argue in circles.

Click to expand...

You have answered nothing. You have admitted that you don't hold to the doctrine of imputation. You want you to be responsible for both your sin and your righteousness as though you will be seen righteous by God for your efforts.

Stranger

Stranger said:

You have answered nothing. You have admitted that you don't hold to the doctrine of imputation. You want you to be responsible for both your sin and your righteousness as though you will be seen righteous by God for your efforts.

Stranger

Click to expand...

No; I believe that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer but that those who die, die for their own sin.

Those who do not die, do not die (in the sense that their last breath on earth is their first breath in heaven) because sin is not imputed to them (Romans 4:7-8).

(But those who die, die, because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) regardless of whether it is imputed to them or not).

This does not mean that righteousness cannot be imparted to the believer (see Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7).

God says that He will declare your righteousness and your works; but they will not profit you (Isaiah 57:12).

Thus my righteousness is not what gets me into heaven. It is not even His righteousness imputed and/or imparted to me that does this.

What gets me into heaven is that I am forgiven and cleansed of all iniquity through His shed blood (1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 3:3, Psalms 51:7, Titus 2:14, etc.).

PS have you considered the scriptures in my signature?

justbyfaith said:

No; I believe that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer but that those who die, die for their own sin.

Those who do not die, do not die (in the sense that their last breath on earth is their first breath in heaven) because sin is not imputed to them (Romans 4:7-8).

(But those who die, die, because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) regardless of whether it is imputed to them or not).

This does not mean that righteousness cannot be imparted to the believer (see Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7).

God says that He will declare your righteousness and your works; but they will not profit you (Isaiah 57:12).

Thus my righteousness is not what gets me into heaven. It is not even His righteousness imputed and/or imparted to me that does this.

What gets me into heaven is that I am forgiven and cleansed of all iniquity through His shed blood (1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 3:3, Psalms 51:7, Titus 2:14, etc.).

PS have you considered the scriptures in my signature?

Click to expand...

No, you don't believe the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. You admit there is nothing to imputation. You die for your own sin. You don't believe (Rom. 5:13). You say imputation plays no role in getting you to Heaven. Thus you deny imputation altogether. You opt for your 'imparted' righteousness because it makes you responsible for it. That way you can glory in it.

Of course Christ's death is important. Yet you deny the substitutionary aspect of that death. You just said every man dies for his own sins whether imputation is involved or not.

Christ's substitutionary death is not opposed to imputation. His death and imputation are all part of God's work in getting you to Heaven. This is perfectly pictured in the sacrifice of the two goats on the Day of Atonement. (Lev. 16:1-34) One goat was sacrificed. One goat had the sins of Israel confessed over it with the high priest's hands upon it. It was then set free in the wilderness. Imputation.

Stranger