Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

farouk · Oct 31, 2019

jshiii said:
Do you really want me to get in this debate? lol After years of debating this with my brother, who is a Pastor? Oh my, not tonight! I may get back with you after I catch some speckled trout tomorrow. Thanks for asking the question

So is your brother a Bible based preacher?

farouk · Oct 31, 2019

I think we need to get back to the fact that at Pentecost, in Acts 2.41, it is clear that people were baptized because they believed; not in order supposedly to become believers.

charity · Oct 31, 2019

farouk said:
@charity Hi; has this thread developed in ways you anticipated?

Hi @farouk,

I started this thread to try to prevent another thread from being derailed by giving a space where this subject could be discussed separately. So, no, it has not developed as I hoped, and those derailing the thread in question have not taken advantage of this opportunity, but continue to impose their will upon the other thread.

farouk · Oct 31, 2019

charity said:
Hi @farouk,

I started this thread to try to prevent another thread from being derailed by giving a space where this subject could be discussed separately. So, no, it has not developed as I hoped, and those derailing the thread in question have not taken advantage of this opportunity, but continue to impose their will upon the other thread.

I think what the New Testament actually says about baptism is rather clear, anyway...

charity · Oct 31, 2019

jshiii said:
Do you really want me to get in this debate? lol After years of debating this with my brother, who is a Pastor? Oh my, not tonight! I may get back with you after I catch some speckled trout tomorrow. Thanks for asking the question

Hi,@jshiii,

No, I don't want to debate this subject personally.

If I were you I would cook that lovely trout, and eat it, praising God for His provision, and for the grace of God in which you stand, in Christ Jesus.

Soverign Grace · Oct 31, 2019

charity said:
In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted in that thread by a participant, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

I was saved and wasn't water baptized until years later - so no it's not necessary for salvation itself.

CNKW3 · Oct 31, 2019

The doibt

charity said:
Hi @CNKW3,

If you read the OP, I give my reason for starting this thread, and it was not for my benefit. I have no issue with this subject, having researched it thoroughly. So your questions should not be addressed to me, but to those who feel the need to ask the question in the subject heading.

I have stated what I believe regarding this subject in #4.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The doubt is mine. I don’t believe your doctrine. You don’t want to teach it to people? Where did the gospel ever change. There must be some point where the gospel went from baptism to no baptism.

bbyrd009 · Oct 31, 2019

wow, 7 pgs in one day!

bbyrd009 · Oct 31, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
wow, 7 pgs in one day!

we are attached to our pointless rituals, huh

but nobody wanna take Preach litterly going down into that water though, do they
lol
ok ladies

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

Willie T said:
I'm sorry, but I see reading, "in the name of...", here, the same way I see it when Jesus said, "Whatever you ask in my name...."

Of course some people have actually taken that latter one to mean that a prayer to Jesus is not "official" if we don't verbally utter the exact words "...in Jesus' name, Amen."

I didn't choose to follow Jesus in the hopes that He would simply give me an alternative set of rules and procedures from those that the Jews happen to have.

It's the baptismal formula that has been used from the beginning.

The Didache (also known as The TTeaching of the Apostles is believed to be written in about 70 Ad - during the apostolic era.
It says: "After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.".

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

farouk said:
Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'. (This hardly portrays so called clergy supposedly bringing eternal life to a person on contact with water...)

Eph 5:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.
With means accompanied by. The washing (a translation that misses something important) is accompanied by the word. The word being "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Exactly, so how could a baptism from a good conscience be legit for a baby who has no sense of right or wrong? However, infant baptism is beneficial for the parents who are dedicating their child to the Lord. I'm sure that presentation helps the parents bring up the child in the way of the Lord. But still that child must choose to become baptized themselves.

Those that quote only half of Romans 8:1 come up with a false assumption. You must walk in the Spirit to have no condemnation.

Romans 8:1 NKJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

You see this is true by the rest of the contextual passage.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

As I pointed out: "A baby hasn't commited any sins to be forgiven so the issue of a good conscience doesn't arise."

Baptism is not just beneficial for the parents but for the child also, again as I pointed out.

Are you just going to ignore the points I make?
If so I won't waste time replying to you.

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

OzSpen said:
Mungo,

That is not what 1 Peter 3:21 teaches. It states: 'There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism....' Please explain the meaning of baptism as 'an antitype'.

Oz

It clearly says that baptism saves us.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (KJV)
Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you (RSV)
baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you (NRSV)
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.(NAB)
And this water symbolises baptism that now saves you (NIV)
also to which an antitype doth now save us—baptism (YLT)
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (HCSB)
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism (ASV)
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you (GWT)
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (NKJV)
That was a type of the baptism that now saves you (CCB)
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also (ISVNT).

If you are going into denial of what scripture clearly says there is no point in continuing.

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

Baptism saves us

Verses that explicitly say baptism save us:
1. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved (Mk 16:16)
2. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)
3. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. ……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41….47)

Verses that implicitly say baptism saves us:
4. Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
(Rom 6:3-4)
5. “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)
6. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 6:11)
7. “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)

Verses that link baptism to some aspect of salvation:
8. Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)
9. Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).
10. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22)
11. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)
12. all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).
But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, by putting his seal on us and giving us his Spirit in our hearts as a first installment. (2Cor 1:22)

When we are clothed with Christ we have been put into Christ and God gives us the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Just as was prophesied by Ezekial (Ez 36:25-27):
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you….
13. “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).
14. As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor 12:12-13).
15. This text also shows this: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:4-5)

Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant
16. “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

17. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-27)

Paul tells us in Romans 9:8 “That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” It is in baptism (with water) that we become children of the promise; we are made children of God.

Steve Owen · Oct 31, 2019

Mungo said:
It clearly says that baptism saves us.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (KJV)
Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you (RSV)
baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you (NRSV)
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.(NAB)
And this water symbolises baptism that now saves you (NIV)
also to which an antitype doth now save us—baptism (YLT)
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (HCSB)
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism (ASV)
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you (GWT)
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (NKJV)
That was a type of the baptism that now saves you (CCB)
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also (ISVNT).

If you are going into denial of what scripture clearly says there is no point in continuing.

Your problem is that the text specifically tells us that the baptism being talked about is not water baptism. '.....not the removal of dirt from the body [which is all that ritual washing can do] but the pledge of a good conscience from God.' Outward purification cannot bring about inward sanctification. I quoted Matthew 23:25-28 and Mark 7:21-23. The baptism we need for salvation is not baptism in water, but baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be to the person who is baptized -- a sign of his fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into Christ [Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27] of remission of sins [Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16] and of that person's giving up of himself to God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life [Romans 6:4]. 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith XXIX:1.

Mungo · Oct 31, 2019

Steve Owen said:
Your problem is that the text specifically tells us that the baptism being talked about is not water baptism. '.....not the removal of dirt from the body [which is all that ritual washing can do] but the pledge of a good conscience from God.' Outward purification cannot bring about inward sanctification. I quoted Matthew 23:25-28 and Mark 7:21-23. The baptism we need for salvation is not baptism in water, but baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I can't see any relevance of Matthew 23:25-28 and Mark 7:21-23 to baptism.

The text (1Pet 3:21) does specifically tell us that the baptism being talked about is batism with water. It is specifically related to water in the preceding verse.
"eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you."
It's very specifically taking about baptism with water.

Baptism is not about physical cleansing. It is about inward cleansing and renewal which is done by the Holy Spirit.
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Ti 3:5)

Steve Owen said:
Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be to the person who is baptized -- a sign of his fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into Christ [Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27] of remission of sins [Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16] and of that person's giving up of himself to God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life [Romans 6:4]. 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith XXIX:1.

It's not a sign of fellowship with Christ. It's how we come into the New Covenant and become children of God. It's how we become engrafted into Christ.

charity · Oct 31, 2019

CNKW3 said:
The doibt

The doubt is mine. I don’t believe your doctrine. You don’t want to teach it to people? Where did the gospel ever change. There must be some point where the gospel went from baptism to no baptism.

'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is -
one body, and
one Spirit, even as ye are called in
one hope of your calling;
One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
One God and Father of all,
Who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'
(Ephesians 4:3-6)

Hi @CNKW3,

I don't ask you to believe me: I have simply told you what I believe as a result of my own Bible study. I am a dispensationalist, and therefore take into consideration the changes in administration that take place in God's Word, in His dealings with man. I believe that the Acts period, with the epistles written during those years by Paul (1 & 2 Thessalonians,Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Hebrews and Romans) are transitional, and largely concerned with the response of Israel as a nation to the call of God by Peter in Acts 3:19-20, and the possibility of the imminent return of Christ, as promised in that address. Baptism is associated with Israel, and during that period water baptism unto repentance, and baptism of the Spirit were closely aligned.

However, when that period ended at Acts 28, with the rejection of the Jews of the diaspora of the ministry of the twelve, and of Paul (apart from the believing remnant), and their fall into consequent blindness, marked by the quotation from Isaiah 6:10, by Paul: the revelation of God concerning the mystery of the church which is the Body of Christ was revealed to Paul and administered by Him*, as it's Steward; in which water baptism has no place, but all is of the Spirit. This is markedly clear in Ephesians 4, in 'The Sevenfold Unity of The Spirit', which we are told to 'keep': of which, the 'One Baptism', which is Baptism of (and by) the Spirit, identifying the Believer with his Lord, has it's part.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* In Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon

Grailhunter · Oct 31, 2019

Mungo said:
I can't see any relevance of Matthew 23:25-28 and Mark 7:21-23 to baptism.

The text (1Pet 3:21) does specifically tell us that the baptism being talked about is batism with water. It is specifically related to water in the preceding verse.
"eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you."
It's very specifically taking about baptism with water.

Baptism is not about physical cleansing. It is about inward cleansing and renewal which is done by the Holy Spirit.
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Ti 3:5)

It's not a sign of fellowship with Christ. It's how we come into the New Covenant and become children of God. It's how we become engrafted into Christ.

Do not mind him...when he goes to the ocean he only sees desert....Mind control can do some amazing thing.
He does not know history either....the early Christians were even concerned with what type of water and who was baptizing you and how cold it was......Lets all say a pray for the mind controlled.

Grailhunter · Oct 31, 2019

Going to a heavenly mountain top resort in Switzerland.....
Belief is the insurance that the whole trip will not go to hell.
Repentance is packing your luggage.
Baptism is is the Jetliner that gets you to Holidaytown, Switzerland
Communication is the mountain tram ride to that heavenly resort.

amadeus · Oct 31, 2019

Philip James said:
Well I don't know about 'pecking' but there certainly is an order.
Lucifer refused to have The Man over him, and so fell...

Obedience to God's will is not optional.

Serviam!

Peace be with you!

I really do agree that God has His order both here and there [whatever the difference between the two really is], but order for God does not, I believe, mean bosses.

My hand certainly has a different function in my body of flesh than one of my toes, but neither of them is the boss over the other. Ideally they are to cooperate with one another to accomplish the work of the body. Perhaps to be the "head" of the physical body means to be the boss, it would it not be our only boss in the carnal?

Similarly in the Body of Christ, Jesus, the Head of it may be the boss, but are there in the end of the matter going to be any other Heads or bosses... like second line supervisors?

Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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