Was Noah “saved by grace through faith”?

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Stranger

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Well it’s good to hear that you believe all those scriptures. So when the Bible says....baptism also now saves us, I’ll know you agree.
There is some problems though.
The list specifically says it is through baptism that one “raises to walk in newness of life”. That is “born again”! if not why not? A new life is a new creation.
Also, one cannot be justified and not be “in Christ”, because the only place salvation is found is “in Christ”. 2 Tim 2:10.
The Bible plainly states that we get “into Christ” through baptism. Rom 6:3,4; Gal 3:26,27
And 2 Cor 5:17 says that if any man be “in Christ” he is a new creation. So, you see how all of this ties together.
You cannot be justified outside of Christ.
You cannot be a “new creation” outside of Christ.
You get “into Christ” through baptism.
So, the logical conclusion is one must be baptized in order to get “into Christ” where one then is justified and raised to walk in newness of life or made a new creation or BORN AGAIN.

No, the list doesn't say that. You say that and hope to provide a list that supports you.

When one believes, he is born-again. That is by faith.

Yes, the only place salvation is found is Christ. When one believes, he is 'in Christ'.

(Rom. 6:3-4) is not water baptism. It is the baptism of the Spirit. As is (Gal. 3:26-27). See (1 Cor. 12:13).

Yes, I see how it all ties together. You do not understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism.

No, you get into Christ by faith. Not water baptism.

The logical conclusion is you do not know what you are talking about.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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you said....
“I said God did not impute righteousness to him until his faith was all there”
Please tell me what “until his faith was ALL THERE” means? If someone’s faith is NOT “all there” then it is lacking. There faith has come short in some area. This is how you describe Abraham in Gen 12-14. So how can a persons faith not be “all there” when he is obeying, sacrificing and calling on the name of the lord? The fact, is that your wrong.


oh, like when God says that sins are remitted and washed away after baptism? Do we have to believe that? Was Sauls sins washed away before or after baptism? Do we have to believe what the Bible says there?
I like all the scriptural support you supplied.

Oh, so his faith was lacking! There was something he didn’t believe in in Chapters 12-14.
Now you have Abraham believing in Christ? Where does it ever say that? Gen 15:1-7 is about Abraham wanting a child of his own. Nowhere does it mention a “saviour”. You are making things up as you go.


Hahaha! You think I “googled” a list? Then “google” it and show it to me. Then you can show me by all of your supporting scripture where God forgives sin BEFORE baptism. If you can’t find them then “google” it.

You are both misrepresenting me and the quote. Give the whole quote and you will understand...maybe. Please try and keep up.

You asked and I told you. A person can know they are declared righteous by God the moment they place faith in Christ, because they have beleived that which God says they must believe. Just like Abraham did.

No, Abrahams faith was not lacking. But God chose the time when He would declare, (impute), righteousness to him. And that was when his faith could do nothing but believe and not do. And, when his faith was directed towards the Saviour. (Gal. 3:16).

As I said, I don't google lists.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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I find this interesting!
You just said that salvation is “not just being born again”. Salvation also includes sanctification, which when you put 2 and 2 together you are saying that one is not totally saved until after sanctification. And you just said that baptism is a part of sanctification so now you are saying that baptism is necessary for salvation since it is a part of our sanctification and salvation is not complete until we are sanctified. Talk about coming out of both sides of your mouth.

As do I.

Yes, I did say that. Salvation also includes sanctification and glorification.

Well, one is not totally saved until after glorification.

Yes, baptism is part of sanctification. Where did I say salvation is not complete until we are sanctified? I didn't. I said if one is not baptized he cannot come into all that sanctification involves. That speaks to his walk of salvation here. Some believers will have more victory in their walk of sanctification than others. Some will have very little. It doesn't change that initial part of their salvation where they believed and were born-again. Nor will it change that glorification aspect of their salvation when they stand before Christ glorified in body, soul, and spirit.

You constantly now misrepresent me, and yet accuse me of talking out of both sides of my mouth.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Noah found grace in God's eyes due to Noah's obedience. And Noah had to continue to obey God in order to continue to find grace in God's eyes.

Will you argue Noah could have disobeyed and rebelled against God in building the ark yet still found grace in the eyes of God, his house would have still been saved from the flood anway in his rebellion?

Well, if Noah was always obedient to God, he didn't need grace. He just needed to be rewarded for being such a fine believer as we all should be.

And if Noah didn't need grace, and then always continued to obey, then all the more reason that he deserved, by his good deeds, to be saved eternally and from the coming flood. He earned it. What a great man.

Yours is the 'grace' of so many today. They call it grace, but it isn't grace. You say, Noah deserved to be saved, from either the flood or eternally, because he was obedient. And, that Noah had to continue to 'obey', or he couldn't find grace in God's eyes. That is not grace, that is full blown law. Condemnation.

You have perverted grace and made it law. Building the Ark is not why Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Building the Ark is not why Noah went to Heaven.

Stranger
 

FHII

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What the faith onlyists are rejecting is that Noah did an obedient work in building the ark and that work did not earn God's grace but was a necessary condition God placed upon receiving His grace in the form of saving Noah's house. The context is undeniable that Noah's obedience was necessary for his house to be saved. No obedience = house not saved/no grace received.

There is therefore an obvious difference between:
--working to earn something
and
--meeting the condition placed upon a free gift.

It would therefore be a strawman argument to argue that obedience is an attempt to earn God's grace.

To address some of your points:

You post "Grace is not always conditional on obedience." I agree. We all, saved and lost, have air to breath by the unconditional grace of God. Yet when it comes to salvation, God's grace has ALWAYS been conditional, both OT and NT. There is not an example of God saving the unbelieving disobedient reprobate who lives in rebellion to God.

You post "But Grace doesn't come by obedience; it comes by faith.". Faith includes obedience for faith is dead, useless without obedience. If Noah had 'faith only' and not built the ark, his faith only would have left him and his house to drown with the wicked in the flood. BY FAITH Noah MOVE with fear PREPARED an ark, obviously his faith included obedient works in doing God's will.

The Bible points out that belief is a work, John 6:27-29, that belief is obedience John 3:36 ASV. The Bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith itself is an obedient work:

Romans 5:1-----------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-----------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, no alternatives, then faith must be an obedient work. In the context of James 2, the type of work James speaks about that justifies is an obedient work in doing God's will. Since both faith and obedience are necessary to be saved, it is impossible to separate them. Any attempt to remove obedience from faith kills the faith dead.

You post "Grace is not always conditional on obedience." Again, in Romans 6 Paul would reply "God forbid" to such an argument. Romans 6:16 we each are serving either one of two masters, we each are serving either:

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

If one is not being obedient to God's will he is serving sin unto death. Therefore obedience to God's will is necessary to keep one from serving sin unto death but instead keep one serving obedience UNTO righteousness.

You point out the names of some men who sinned. Man's obedience to God's will will not be perfect for no accountable man, other than Christ, is perfectly, flawlessly sinless. Yet God has given the Christian a second avenue of forgiveness in repenting. When the Christian does sin, if he repents God will forgive and the Christian will not be lost. Yet for those who remain impenitent about their sins will be lost for God does not forgive the impenitent (Romans 2:4-5 Jonah was a person who repented. After he first rejected God's command to go to Nineveh he was punished. Yet when God approached him the second time about going to Nineveh, Jonah obeyed: "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey." As far as the other men you cited as Solomon, as far as we know from the Bible he would be lost. At the end of his life he turned to live and die in idolatry. If he did not repent of that sin, and the Bible does not say he did, then he would be lost. God 1) does not forgive the impenitent 2) idolatry (unbelief) is a sin God will punish with everlasting condemnation. The jews as Solomon were under the OT law God's chosen people. Yet we find out the majority of them were lost, it was just a remnant that was saved (Romans 9:27). Who was the remnant that was saved? Those that obeyed the gospel, Acts 2:38.

You posted "But I will agree with you that it's important to obey God. Just don't apply that to following the Law". Following the OT law will not save for that law required perfect, flawless law keeping to be justified. Yet following Christ's NT gospel, NT law will save for all it requires is a faithful obedience, not perfect flawless obedience as the OT law, but faithful obedience and it allows for repentance for the Christian when he sins and God forgives.

Earnest, you are just repackaging your arguments. They haven't changed in overall scope. Not saying that is bad, it's just my answers to all your rebuttals remain the same... The conversation has run its course. We aren't bringing anything new.

I believe in obedience. Please don't misunderstand that. But I just don't make it conditional for faith or Grace. If it ever were, it's to be unseen.

Again, I tend to be on guard about works, obedience and Grace because it is a gateway for some to impose the law. Folks will say that's not what they are saying and not where they are going, but it soon is proven that is indeed their hidden agenda.

James talked about "the royal law". He actually only half quoted it. But it's to love the Lord and love thy neighbor as thyself. John said THAT was the command we are to be obedient to. 1 John 3:23. There's a lot to that. But that's what is required. Nothing more.

Yet folks say we have to stop sinning (by obeying the law which they acknowledge was done away with) if we love the Lord, and they claim the do it easily! That's nonsense.

That's my final response. I will let you have yours.
 

CNKW3

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No, the list doesn't say that. You say that and hope to provide a list that supports you.
Now you are in just complete denial. Being raised to walk in newness of life is NOT born again? It’s a new life! What is “born again” if it’s not a new life. Being quickened or made alive is NOT being born again? Then what is being made alive if it’s not being born again? So you can be born again and then made alive? So, sins being washed away has NOTHING to do with becoming a “new creature”? Then what do you become when you are “born again”?
When one believes, he is born-again. That is by faith.
I noticed you didn’t provide any scriptural support. Where does it say....at the point of “belief” one becomes a new creature, born again. I see the lord saying that in order to be born again water is necessary. But because you are in complete denial and so prideful that you can’t give up a horrible false doctrine, you say water is not necessary, just like those in the days of Noah that said....water is not coming.

Yes, the only place salvation is found is Christ. When one believes, he is 'in Christ'.
where’s that passage!

(Rom. 6:3-4) is not water baptism. It is the baptism of the Spirit. As is (Gal. 3:26-27). See (1 Cor. 12:13).
Hahaha! In another thread I posted that only those who are blind and in denial try to make Rom 6 a Spirit baptism, when the description is clearly a burial and a resurrection. And lo and behold here we have it on display. Perfect timing.
What happens in water baptism? One is buried under water and then raised (a resurrection) up out of the water. This is clearly what Paul is describing.
What does Spirit baptism look like? The only two examples we have give us no visual cues other then speaking in tongues. There is no burial and resurrection component to it. So, since Rom 6 is obviously water then Gal 3 is also water since it for the same reason. As for 1 Cor 12?
Let’s look a few chapters earlier.
1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Now, let’s use your logic....this means the wife is literally bound by the law. How is that even possible? It’s not. The clear meaning is that it is the instruction or direction given by the law that binds the wife. The Bible speaks this way on many occasions.
So, a couple of chapters later Paul says....by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. This is exactly the same thing. It is through the direction or instruction given by the Spirit that we come to be baptized “into Christ”.
This harmonizes with other passages....
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Here we see we are saved by two things.....a washing of regeneration (baptism) and a renewing of the HG (direction given by the Spirit). We would know NOTHING of salvation if it wasn’t for the Spirit. We would know nothing of Christ if it wasn’t for the Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
here is a parallel passage to the one above. Saying the same thing but in a slightly different way. We are cleansed, saved by two things.....washing of water (baptism) and the word (what is given us by the Spirit). Would we have the word of God without the work of the Spirit? No!
Would we know anything of baptism if it wasn’t for the direction of the Spirit? No!

Yes, I see how it all ties together. You do not understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism.
Well if I don’t you sure aren’t doing anything to show me. Whose the lazy one now? The truth is you have NO scriptural support and that’s why your post is a blank canvass.

No, you get into Christ by faith. Not water baptism.

The logical conclusion is you do not know what you are talking about.

Stranger
again, thinks for being a good Christian individual and showing me all the evidence of proof that would help me understand. This is all you people have.....deny, deny, deny, and then say....you don’t know what you ate talking about.
 

CNKW3

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You are both misrepresenting me and the quote. Give the whole quote and you will understand...maybe. Please try and keep up.
I gave the quote. Everybody can read what you wrote. If you want to explain it further go ahead.

You asked and I told you. A person can know they are declared righteous by God the moment they place faith in Christ, because they have beleived that which God says they must believe. Just like Abraham did.
again no scripture. I see why you have over 8000 post. You just tell people stuff and include no Bible whatsoever. We are to just take your word for it.

No, Abrahams faith was not lacking. But God chose the time when He would declare, (impute), righteousness to him. And that was when his faith could do nothing but believe and not do. And, when his faith was directed towards the Saviour. (Gal. 3:16).

As I said, I don't google lists.

Stranger
wheres the “savior” in Gen 15:1-7? Where did Abraham put his faith in Christ? Are you going to show us that at least?
 

CNKW3

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As do I.

Yes, I did say that. Salvation also includes sanctification and glorification.

Well, one is not totally saved until after glorification.

Yes, baptism is part of sanctification. Where did I say salvation is not complete until we are sanctified? I didn't. I said if one is not baptized he cannot come into all that sanctification involves. That speaks to his walk of salvation here. Some believers will have more victory in their walk of sanctification than others. Some will have very little. It doesn't change that initial part of their salvation where they believed and were born-again. Nor will it change that glorification aspect of their salvation when they stand before Christ glorified in body, soul, and spirit.

You constantly now misrepresent me, and yet accuse me of talking out of both sides of my mouth.

Stranger
Yes I am accusing you of that and more. And yes you do talk out of both sides of your mouth. You are sanctified by God at the point you are justified. Sanctification does not come later.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
When were they sanctified? When they were washed and justified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Salvation through what? Sanctification! And how does the Spirit do that? Through the washing of water! Look at next passage.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
how is the body of Christ sanctified? With the washing of water. Can one get into Christ without baptism? No. Rom 6 and Gal 3. So sanctification is not just something that comes sometime later after your initial salvation.
There is plenty more to say here but I’m the only one here NOT being lazy and I gotta go.
 

Giuliano

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Personally I thought your earlier post on either way Adam would have been disobedient....gave a lot to be considered. love bears and one must consider the word says the strong are to bear those who are weak. this is seen in Christ when virtue went out from Him when touched by those weaker. Pertaining to a husband and the wife as the weaker vessels...a question I have is what if Adam did not eat of the fruit ...would the woman have been covered by the man’s obedience? The strength and power of the head given to that which was weak in temptation? Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I have also wondered frequently what would have happened if Adam had not also eaten. According to Paul writing later, a husband can purify his wife, and she can purify him.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

I am reluctant to call what either Eve or Adam did "sin" even if Paul does. The word has too many meanings. Eve could be excused for what is called a "sin of ignorance." I also would not want to judge Adam severely, falling into legalism.

For the same reason, I don't judge Lot's two daughters too severely. While I'll admit what they did was wrong, I can understand and even sympathize with them. If they believed the three of them were the sole humans left, the human race would go extinct if they didn't commit incest. I am repelled by the idea of incest; but I can't judge them harshly. What was the outcome of that? Well, eventually the offspring of both "cursed" tribes married into the Messianic line; and we see too that even the wicked "seed of Sodom" was preserved in order to be saved. Thus God's plan for every nation, tribe and tongue was moved forward.

Quoted your comment of “Satan is the great accuser.” The accuser has entered within mankind. Maybe we don’t consider fully what happened when instead of covering Eve with strength, power, and virtue, Adam not only took of the fruit and ate but “accused”. Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

This shows up in addicts having a tendency to shift blame to someone else. So-and-so bought it for them, or gave it to them otherwise they would not have done it...somehow the fault gets shifted. we would not called blame shifting good. Even worse to imply it was God’s fault because Adam was given a defective woman.
We see both Eve and Adam speaking with "forked tongue." What they said was "true" in its own way, but it was also a dodge. That's also what the serpent did. He used the "truth" to deceive Eve. Good and evil were mixed up, sweet and bitter, darkness and light.


What happened when Adam ate of the fruit ...was the seed of the serpent not also within him? In Adams belly, growing into accusations even before God came and called for him? Agree with you that if Adam didn’t eat ...could also be seen as a lack of love in not willing to go into prison and into death with, and bear along side Eve. Even Peter told Christ he was ready to go into prison and death for Christ...yet Christ told him you will deny Me this night. if through Adams obedience, would Eve(weak in temptation)have been covered by that which remained strong? Should obedience to God not have been to consider Eve above himself and to not eat of the fruit and to bear her shame when God came to ask? And through his obedience made perfect through suffering for her lack..the Law of God would have been fulfilled. Regardless Adam lacked something: Hebrews 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Obedience of one: made perfect through sufferings...that bond of perfection being love. in He Who knew no sin; first loved us while still in our sin.
I see Adam as falling under the spell of the knowledge of good and evil when mixed together and confused. Eve understood what "good" was -- Genesis says as much. I think they both knew what "good" was and what "evil" was. What they weren't ready to deal with yet was how the two could be mixed together.

I see James discussing this confusion of the two.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Why was that tree there? I believe they were eventually to eat of it. Genesis says mysteriously that they could eat of "every tree" but then they are not told to eat of that one. My idea on this could change; but I don't think God put it there to tempt them. No, eventually He wanted them to eat of it; and I think they could have too if the "two" had become "one." Then they could reached out and partook of that tree at the same time as they partook of the Tree of Life. Just as Adam and Eve were meant to be one, I think the two trees were meant to be one.

There is a passage in Mark (not in some versions, but I like it and think it's great) that seems to show how Jesus reverses things for believers and restores them to Eden. I read it spiritually as reversing the fall, not literally.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"Every creature" means to take up what Adam and Eve were to do, exercise benevolent dominion over every creature. Animals do not know about God unless men and women act as bridges. I think God's plan is to glorify the whole earth through His creation Man. "Let every thing hath breath praise the LORD." And even the rocks may sing the praises of God.
 

Giuliano

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I already did. God gave the command directly to ADAM not to eat from the tree. We are told that Eve was deceived, but Adam knowingly disobeyed God's direct order to him.

Genesis 2:16-17-- And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”

2 Corinthians 11:3--I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.
You explained nothing. So how did sin enter the world, through Eve or through Adam? Paul elsewhere puts the "blame" on Eve.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


I do not believe that Adam was "tempted beyond what he could bear." I believe that he COULD have obeyed God, but chose to disobey His command.
How could Adam obeyed if God already knew in advance that he wouldn't? You state that in another post.

This is not a matter of my holiness. I am a sinner saved by grace like every other believer! Now who is accusing whom??
So you say, so you say. But if that is so, why do you hint that maybe I have a demon? Just because I don't agree with you? That is an satanic accusation if I ever heard it. I'm not imagining it the way you imagine I might have a demon. The evidence is in front of us.

Perhaps people should "fear" to be honest with you. Perhaps I shouldn't told you I used to use Tarot cards. Perhaps it's not safe for anyone ever to confess past misdeeds to you. Your imagination runs riot. Do you believe Jesus can change people's lives? Or is it only you who is "saved by grace"? I could confess to other sins from my past. Would you hold them also against me?

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


It does not bring me pleasure to say your "religion" strikes me as vain; and neither does it please me to think perhaps on Judgment Day, I will be called to testify against you. We all have work to do, and it looks to me as if you need God to tame your tongue.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Do you agree that God is omniscient? This means that He knows EVERYTHING!
My Bible says nothing of the sort. This idea was invented by pagan philosophers who worshiped "knowledge" -- and I can tell you from my history of using Tarot cads, most people are intrigued by being able to predict the future and "know it all" before it happens. God doesn't fill Him Mind with trivia.

God first of all knows the beginning and the end. How things will end is known. Nothing you or I or anyone else can do is going to change that. It's a foregone conclusion. The "ending" exists in the Mind of God -- and eventually everything will conform to that picture. It's like a jigsaw puzzle in a way. You have the picture and you have the pieces. You know what the end result will be; but you don't know where all the pieces go, and which ones you will fit together first.

God says He forgets sins when we repent. He does. The sins no longer exist. They are in the "past" and the "past" isn't real -- only "now" is real. Similarly God does not imagine "evil" in the future in the way men may think. Many things are predictable (as I can tell you by my history at fortunetelling), but man still has free will.

People often get confused by what prophecy is. God is not "predicting" the future. That would be making God into a fortuneteller. Prophecy is God saying He will make something happen. There's Power behind it, not just predicting.
 

Stranger

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Now you are in just complete denial. Being raised to walk in newness of life is NOT born again? It’s a new life! What is “born again” if it’s not a new life. Being quickened or made alive is NOT being born again? Then what is being made alive if it’s not being born again? So you can be born again and then made alive? So, sins being washed away has NOTHING to do with becoming a “new creature”? Then what do you become when you are “born again”?

I noticed you didn’t provide any scriptural support. Where does it say....at the point of “belief” one becomes a new creature, born again. I see the lord saying that in order to be born again water is necessary. But because you are in complete denial and so prideful that you can’t give up a horrible false doctrine, you say water is not necessary, just like those in the days of Noah that said....water is not coming.

where’s that passage!


Hahaha! In another thread I posted that only those who are blind and in denial try to make Rom 6 a Spirit baptism, when the description is clearly a burial and a resurrection. And lo and behold here we have it on display. Perfect timing.
What happens in water baptism? One is buried under water and then raised (a resurrection) up out of the water. This is clearly what Paul is describing.
What does Spirit baptism look like? The only two examples we have give us no visual cues other then speaking in tongues. There is no burial and resurrection component to it. So, since Rom 6 is obviously water then Gal 3 is also water since it for the same reason. As for 1 Cor 12?
Let’s look a few chapters earlier.
1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Now, let’s use your logic....this means the wife is literally bound by the law. How is that even possible? It’s not. The clear meaning is that it is the instruction or direction given by the law that binds the wife. The Bible speaks this way on many occasions.
So, a couple of chapters later Paul says....by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. This is exactly the same thing. It is through the direction or instruction given by the Spirit that we come to be baptized “into Christ”.
This harmonizes with other passages....
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Here we see we are saved by two things.....a washing of regeneration (baptism) and a renewing of the HG (direction given by the Spirit). We would know NOTHING of salvation if it wasn’t for the Spirit. We would know nothing of Christ if it wasn’t for the Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
here is a parallel passage to the one above. Saying the same thing but in a slightly different way. We are cleansed, saved by two things.....washing of water (baptism) and the word (what is given us by the Spirit). Would we have the word of God without the work of the Spirit? No!
Would we know anything of baptism if it wasn’t for the direction of the Spirit? No!

Well if I don’t you sure aren’t doing anything to show me. Whose the lazy one now? The truth is you have NO scriptural support and that’s why your post is a blank canvass.

again, thinks for being a good Christian individual and showing me all the evidence of proof that would help me understand. This is all you people have.....deny, deny, deny, and then say....you don’t know what you ate talking about.

Being born-again is the first part of your salvation. Yes you are now a new creature in Christ. Yes, you now begin your walk in newness of life. You are trying to use (Rom. 6:3-4) to mean water baptism. It does not. It is Spirit baptism. As I already showed you.

(John 3:16-18) (John 6:29) (Gal. 3:26-27) These show that salvation is by faith alone and that one is in Christ the moment he believes. As do the many more Scriptures that teach one is born-again by faith alone.

No. (Rom. 6:3-4) is Spirit baptism. This act of baptizing us by the Spirit into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection was always what water baptism pointed to. Water baptism did not do it. (Gal. 3:26-27) speaks to the same Spirit baptism. As does (1 Cor. 12:13). You really must learn to distinguish between water and Spirit baptism.

Concerning (Titus 3:5), just because the word 'washing' is used does not mean it is water baptism. Our being saved is spoken as being a 'washing of regeneration'. A cleansing by God, not by our righteousness. No baptism water here. (Eph. 5:26) speaks to the continual need and action of Christ in cleansing His Church. It speaks to our continual need to be cleansed, but not to our original cleansing given in (Titus 3:5). This is perfectly displayed in (John 13:6-10) No baptismal water here.

Stranger
 
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Giuliano

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He is not perfect because of Adam. But Adam was perfect as created by God. So was Eve. Imperfection today is a result of their disobedience.
Where did you get this idea that Adam was already perfect? What an idea. God rested after the Sixth Day; and Adam and Eve to work at some things. God wanted to work "through" them.

Adam and Eve were close to perfect, but they were not perfect. First they needed to understand what love was. Then they were to become one, be fruitful and multiply, and to exercise dominion. Had they done those things, they would have been perfect and entered the Eternal Rest of the Sabbath.
 

Giuliano

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Here again, I have to object to your characterization of Adam. God created him as a perfect being; he lacked nothing.
If Adam was created a perfect being, why did God omit saying he was "good" after making him? There are two times when it is not said that God saw what He had made and found it good.

What God did make as a whole however was "very good." Man, His Creation, had a wonderful potential! That was indeed very good; and that potential still exists.
 

Stranger

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I gave the quote. Everybody can read what you wrote. If you want to explain it further go ahead.

again no scripture. I see why you have over 8000 post. You just tell people stuff and include no Bible whatsoever. We are to just take your word for it.

wheres the “savior” in Gen 15:1-7? Where did Abraham put his faith in Christ? Are you going to show us that at least?

I gave Scripture to address what we were talking about concerning Abraham's faith. It showed the moment when God imputed righteousness to him. That was faith and nothing else. That was faith directed toward the coming Saviour.

(Gen. 15:5) "...and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be."
(Gal. 3:16) "Now to Abrahm and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Therefore, God imputed righteousness to Abraham when his faith was directed toward the coming Saviour. Therefore, we can know that when we place faith in Jesus Christ, as God has told us to do, that at that time we too have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Yes I am accusing you of that and more. And yes you do talk out of both sides of your mouth. You are sanctified by God at the point you are justified. Sanctification does not come later.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
When were they sanctified? When they were washed and justified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Salvation through what? Sanctification! And how does the Spirit do that? Through the washing of water! Look at next passage.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
how is the body of Christ sanctified? With the washing of water. Can one get into Christ without baptism? No. Rom 6 and Gal 3. So sanctification is not just something that comes sometime later after your initial salvation.
There is plenty more to say here but I’m the only one here NOT being lazy and I gotta go.

See post #(191)

You need to learn the different aspects of salvation.

Sanctification is an ongoing process here and now.

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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Why was that tree there? I believe they were eventually to eat of it.

There is a lot about trees in the Word. Regardless I’ve often wondered why it is said money is the root of all evil for as far as I would assume (maybe I’m wrong)...money wasn’t in the garden. But instead all evil coming from vanity and corruption the true root as in “oh vain man” who kills(wars), steals, and destroys to have but has not and cannot obtain for he asks amiss that he might devour it on his own lust. Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

To me it wasn’t that they ate of the fruit but instead believed another voice over God’s voice and hid from Him. Whatever one has done there comes a time when the decision is to step into the light of His countenance knowing whatever happens is far better than the hiding in the dark. God sees anyway...what is hidden yet is patient and Long-suffering for one to know no matter what God is good. Adam and Eve had believed the lie God is not good and it would be better to cover what God had already seen and knew had happened; yet God still came to walk with Adam.

"Every creature" means to take up what Adam and Eve were to do, exercise benevolent dominion over every creature.
And to be fruitful and multiply Christ.

. "Let every thing hath breath praise the LORD." And even the rocks may sing the praises of God.

(imo and no one has to agree) The “rocks” there would be Peter and every other stony heart God has removed and a new heart given ...even the “rocks” would cry out if He (with)held His peace.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Eve could be excused for what is called a "sin of ignorance."

Love this whole exchange here. It is long...I’m sorry and you don’t have to read it. But the last verse is worth it. “If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.”

John 9:23-41 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. [24] Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. [25] He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. [26] Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? [27] He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? [28] Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. [29] We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. [30] The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. [31] Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. [32] Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. [33] If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. [34] They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. [35] Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? [36] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? [37] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. [38] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. [39] And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. [40] And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? [41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
 

Prayer Warrior

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You explained nothing. So how did sin enter the world, through Eve or through Adam? Paul elsewhere puts the "blame" on Eve.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I see that you mean to silence me, lol!

In this passage, Paul is not saying that sin entered the world through Eve. Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself when he said, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned… (Romans 5:12 ).

Read the Genesis account of the Fall. God assigns blame to the serpent (i.e. the devil) and to Adam. He doesn’t assign blame to Eve. He only pronounces the curse on her.

Genesis 3:11-19—
Then He asked, “Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
Then the man replied, “The woman You gave to be with me — she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate.”
So the Lord God asked the woman, “What is this you have done?”
And the woman said, “It was the serpent. He deceived me, and I ate.”

Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this,
you are cursed more than any livestock
and more than any wild animal.
You will move on your belly
and eat dust all the days of your life.
I will put hostility between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.

He said to the woman:
I will intensify your labor pains;
you will bear children in anguish.
Your desire will be for your husband,
yet he will rule over you.

And He said to Adam, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘Do not eat from it’:
The ground is cursed because of you.
You will eat from it by means of painful labor
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow
until you return to the ground,
since you were taken from it.
For you are dust,
and you will return to dust.”

How could Adam obeyed if God already knew in advance that he wouldn't? You state that in another post.

Foreknowledge (i.e. knowing what will happen in the future) does NOT determine what will happen in the future. IOW, just because God KNEW that Adam would disobey His command, God did not predestine Adam to disobey. Your fallacious logic about this is based on human reasoning, not on the truth.

So you say, so you say. But if that is so, why do you hint that maybe I have a demon? Just because I don't agree with you? That is an satanic accusation if I ever heard it. I'm not imagining it the way you imagine I might have a demon. The evidence is in front of us.

Perhaps people should "fear" to be honest with you. Perhaps I shouldn't told you I used to use Tarot cards. Perhaps it's not safe for anyone ever to confess past misdeeds to you. Your imagination runs riot. Do you believe Jesus can change people's lives? Or is it only you who is "saved by grace"? I could confess to other sins from my past. Would you hold them also against me?

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I’m glad that you were open about your involvement in the occult. I have prayed for you about this and, hopefully, others have as well, that you will be delivered from demonic influence, to which you have opened a door! We are to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed! I consider any involvement in the occult to be a sin.

James 5:16—Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The urgent request of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect.

Please consider that Jesus healed and delivered all who came to Him.

Acts 10:37-38— You know the events that took place throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him.

You say that I hinted that you “have a demon.” I did not even imply this. You have twisted my words. Saying or implying that someone has a demon implies that the person is possessed of the devil, which means that the devil owns the person, IMO. I would NOT say this about a fellow Christian. You need to retract your false accusation.

My Bible says nothing of the sort. This idea was invented by pagan philosophers who worshiped "knowledge" -- and I can tell you from my history of using Tarot cads, most people are intrigued by being able to predict the future and "know it all" before it happens. God doesn't fill Him Mind with trivia.

God first of all knows the beginning and the end. How things will end is known. Nothing you or I or anyone else can do is going to change that. It's a foregone conclusion. The "ending" exists in the Mind of God -- and eventually everything will conform to that picture. It's like a jigsaw puzzle in a way. You have the picture and you have the pieces. You know what the end result will be; but you don't know where all the pieces go, and which ones you will fit together first.

God says He forgets sins when we repent. He does. The sins no longer exist. They are in the "past" and the "past" isn't real -- only "now" is real. Similarly God does not imagine "evil" in the future in the way men may think. Many things are predictable (as I can tell you by my history at fortunetelling), but man still has free will.

People often get confused by what prophecy is. God is not "predicting" the future. That would be making God into a fortuneteller. Prophecy is God saying He will make something happen. There's Power behind it, not just predicting.

God’s omniscience is a biblical truth.

1 John 3:19-20— This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence, even if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience, and He knows all things.

God’s omniscience does not negate man’s free will!

Wow, are you saying that you could know the future using an occult method, but God doesn’t know the future??? So, the devil showed you things that God doesn’t even know?? If this is what you’re saying, it is an absurdity of the highest degree!

Predicting the future is only “fortunetelling” when it’s done by the power of the devil — occult power. In truth, the devil lies about knowing the whole future. He only knows what GOD reveals.

Only God Almighty is truly and completely omniscient!
.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Earnest, you are just repackaging your arguments. They haven't changed in overall scope. Not saying that is bad, it's just my answers to all your rebuttals remain the same... The conversation has run its course. We aren't bringing anything new.

I believe in obedience. Please don't misunderstand that. But I just don't make it conditional for faith or Grace. If it ever were, it's to be unseen.

Again, I tend to be on guard about works, obedience and Grace because it is a gateway for some to impose the law. Folks will say that's not what they are saying and not where they are going, but it soon is proven that is indeed their hidden agenda.

James talked about "the royal law". He actually only half quoted it. But it's to love the Lord and love thy neighbor as thyself. John said THAT was the command we are to be obedient to. 1 John 3:23. There's a lot to that. But that's what is required. Nothing more.

Yet folks say we have to stop sinning (by obeying the law which they acknowledge was done away with) if we love the Lord, and they claim the do it easily! That's nonsense.

That's my final response. I will let you have yours.


Two simple facts:


---There is no salvation without obedience to God.

----Obedience is a condition God has placed upon his free gift, not a work one does to earn salvation.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Well, if Noah was always obedient to God, he didn't need grace. He just needed to be rewarded for being such a fine believer as we all should be.

And if Noah didn't need grace, and then always continued to obey, then all the more reason that he deserved, by his good deeds, to be saved eternally and from the coming flood. He earned it. What a great man.

Yours is the 'grace' of so many today. They call it grace, but it isn't grace. You say, Noah deserved to be saved, from either the flood or eternally, because he was obedient. And, that Noah had to continue to 'obey', or he couldn't find grace in God's eyes. That is not grace, that is full blown law. Condemnation.

You have perverted grace and made it law. Building the Ark is not why Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Building the Ark is not why Noah went to Heaven.

Stranger
Even though one must be obedient to the will of God to be saved, that does not do away with grace. Grace is needed because one's obedience will not be perfect. Luke 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Even though one does his duty in obeying God, one is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace for again, one's obedience will not be perfect. God forgives the obedient who repents and will not forgive the disobedient impenitent.

I NEVER said Noah deserved to be saved. Due to his obedience he found grace in the eyes of God and God graciously saved him and his house. God owed Noah nothing.

Noah would not have been saved had he not continued to obey God for God will not save the rebellious and disobedient. Again, Romans 6:16 paul said we are serving either 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. Not obeying is servin sin unto death. Therefore obedience is necessary to keep one righteous before God.

Therefore grace and obedience to GOd's commands are both needed to be saved for no impenitent lawbreaker will find grace.

Again are you to argue Noah would have been saved anyway had he rebelled and disobeyed God in not building the ark?