Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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charity

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I really do agree that God has His order both here and there [whatever the difference between the two really is], but order for God does not, I believe, mean bosses.

My hand certainly has a different function in my body of flesh than one of my toes, but neither of them is the boss over the other. Ideally they are to cooperate with one another to accomplish the work of the body. Perhaps to be the "head" of the physical body means to be the boss, it would it not be our only boss in the carnal?

Similarly in the Body of Christ, Jesus, the Head of it may be the boss, but are there in the end of the matter going to be any other Heads or bosses... like second line supervisors?

'And not holding the Head,
from which -
all the body
by joints and bands having nourishment ministered,
and knit together,
increaseth with the increase of God.'

(Colossians 2:19)

* Without the Head there is nothing, no movement, no act of decision making, no actions of any description, no sight, no hearing, no voice - No life!

Praise His Holy Name!
 
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amadeus

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* Without the Head there is nothing, no movement, no act of decision making, no actions of any description, no sight, no hearing, no voice.
I agree, but among men and in many, if not all, organized churches among men there is a hierarchy of power... A person with a physical body has only one head. There is no back up or secondary head. Should it not be so in the Body of Christ? We can look at these verses:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Eph 4:11-12

Some would make those 5 different levels of bosses, but rather they are gifts from God whose purpose is described in the next verse:

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:13

We may need those five to help us to move on to what God wants us to be, but when they have fulfilled their purpose, those gifts, those people, those ministers will no longer be needed. We'll be capable of performing our called function with only our connection to the Head. No under bosses, or supervisor or foremen or crew chiefs to tell us what is necessary to accomplish our function nor to tell us when we are needed. That is a perfect man.
 
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farouk

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'And not holding the Head,
from which -
all the body
by joints and bands having nourishment ministered,
and knit together,
increaseth with the increase of God.'

(Colossians 2:19)

* Without the Head there is nothing, no movement, no act of decision making, no actions of any description, no sight, no hearing, no voice - No life!

Praise His Holy Name!
Headship is an important truth, often overlooked; Paul takes up the truth also in1 Corintnthians 11.
 

charity

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Headship is an important truth, often overlooked; Paul takes up the truth also in 1 Corinthians 11.

Which He wrought in Christ,
when He raised Him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the Head
over all things to the church,
which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

(Ephesians 1:20)

Praise His Holy Name!
 

charity

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Headship is an important truth, often overlooked; Paul takes up the truth also in 1 Corintnthians 11.

Though, in 1 Corinthians the parts of the Body are used as representative of the distribution of spiritual gifts, in which there are parts which are more honourable than another, that is not therefore a picture of the church which is the body of Christ, which is a joint body, equal and united in their Head, which is Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter 3. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration.
Clearly from Acts 2.41, people were baptized because they believed the Gospel;
they didn't get baptized in order to believe.

'Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.'

(Acts 2:41)

Hello @farouk,

Reading @Triumph1300's entry (above) in response to your post from the first page, I was intrigued to follow through on what you had said regarding Acts 2:41. Those who were said to be baptized in that verse, did so as a result of receiving Peter's words, didn't they? :-

'Then Peter said unto them,
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you
.. in the name of Jesus Christ
.... for the remission of sins,
...... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you,
.. and to your children,
.... and to all that are afar off,
(or - Jews of the dispersion)
...... even as many as the Lord our God shall call.' (- this is the remnant of Israel whom God would call)
(Acts 2:38-39)

* This was said by Peter in response to their question in verse 37:-

'Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart,
and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"'

* What had been said to them to cause them to be 'pricked in their hearts', and give voice to this question?
* In verses 14-26 of chapter 2 of Acts, Peter had spoken to these people, described as,
'All the house of Israel' and, 'Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem.' and urged them to save themselves, 'from this untoward generation'. Who though the Lord Jesus had been 'delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God', they had, 'taken, and by wicked hands - crucified and slain' (Acts 2:22).

* This was a baptism unto repentance: for it was not the gospel of the grace of God that was preached unto them, was it? But,
'repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.'

In Christ Jesus
Chris






 
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CharismaticLady

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Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter 3. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration.

Clearly from Acts 2.41, people were baptized because they believed the Gospel; they didn't get baptized in order to believe.

I got baptized in water because I became born again.
 

Grailhunter

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Baptism, a little word with the power of the universe. Beliefs regarding baptism go from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Many believe that when someone is baptized it causes miraculous events for the individual that are part of salvation.

Some believe it is linked to repentance and thus referred to it as the Baptism of repentance in which the person’s past sins are forgiven.

Some believe that the person receives the Holy Spirit in one fashion or another.

Some believe that Baptism is in effect, dying in Christ and a resurrection of sorts, or a metaphorical symbology thereof.

Many believe that the process of regeneration occurs here.

But at the other end of the spectrum, some believe it has no spiritual significance at all, serving as a public display of obedience or an announcement that they are Christian.

The early Christians and ECF’s were big on water even though the method could very. In winter you could substitute the river with pouring water over someone’s head three times.

For those that believe that Baptism has spiritual effects there is scriptural support.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:16 Peter speaking, Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 Paul said, And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the His name.

Mark 1:8 John the Baptist said, I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:3 Speaking of John the Baptist. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:22-23 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. Can you imagine being baptized by God!

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Along with the beliefs that in Baptism we die in Christ, the person that emerges from the water as a new person. Meaning, completely and totally a new person, consequently the Trinity having no memory of the old person, their sins, or their poor character. It is the proverbial, instance of starting out with a new slate. This belief has some historical precedence in the early Church, for one, some would wait until they were near death to be baptized, thinking that way their soul would be free of sin when it came time to face judgment. It has been said that Emperor Constantine did this.

There is a psychological side of this because some people have trouble forgiving themselves. I think Paul was one of these. With that person no longer existing a person can better understand that they can move forward with their walk with Christ. There is a possibly of a redemptive quality that goes beyond the norm here. For those that have done horrible things or the unpardonable sin it is like that person never existed, so all is forgiven. Alternatively it denies Satan any venue to accuse you of not being good enough to be a Christian. Thoughts and beliefs vary on this.

Some of those that believe that Baptism has no spiritual effect have concerns that if Baptism forgives, why did Christ need to die on the Cross? The explanation for this may go back to John the Baptist, a relative, the cousin of Christ. Their association is a topic in itself. But John probably understood the plan and put it in the most simplest of words, as he was baptizing in the Jordan

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (Notice the exclamation point) Spoiler alert! Christ would never answer the question of where John got the authority to forgive sins. The answer of course, it came from God. Baptism or ritual bathing is not unique to Christianity, and it is always about cleansing. But the Christian baptism is spiritual. Even before the crucifixion God the Father had given Christ all authority over judgment and sin. Matthew 2:5, 28:18-20, Mark 2:5, John 3:35, 5:22-27, 13:3 Luke 7:48 Christ removed the sin of the world. In this scenario baptism removed an individual’s sins from their soul and any sin committed after baptism is between the individual and Christ.
 

Mungo

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'

* This was a baptism unto repentance: for it was not the gospel of the grace of God that was preached unto them, was it? But, 'repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.'

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Are you suggesting that under this "gospel of grace" there is no need to repent of your sins?
 

Willie T

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When did you get baptized with the Holy Spirit? Before or after?
Long after. I was baptized in the CoC, and they didn't even believe the Holy Spirit was anything but the ink on the pages of a Bible. Half of them would have fainted if they heard me speaking in tongues, and the other half would have started stoning me on the spot.
 
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Triumph1300

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Reading @Triumph1300's entry (above) in response to your post from the first page, I was intrigued to follow through on what you had said regarding Acts 2:41. Those who were said to be baptized in that verse, did so as a result of receiving Peter's words, didn't they? :-

Well I guess people on their death beds accepting Christ cannot be saved
because they do not have the opportunity to be baptized?
Is THAT what you believe?

Are you a United Pentecostal?


I believe God is a just God and will accept these people without baptism.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter 3. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration.
Clearly from Acts 2.41, people were baptized because they believed the Gospel; they didn't get baptized in order to believe.
This should be your FIRST clue that belief is not enough.
You must surrender to Christ - and that's where Baptism comes in.

James assures us that if all you do it "believe" - then you're no better off than the demons (James 2:19).

Christ
stated in NO uncertain terms, "The one who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved" (Mark 16:16).
 

BreadOfLife

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Well I guess people on their death beds accepting Christ cannot be saved
because they do not have the opportunity to be baptized?
Is THAT what you believe?

Are you a United Pentecostal?

I believe God is a just God and will accept these people without baptism.
Baptism is the NORMATIVE means of salvation.
A person can have Baptism of Desire who does not have the opportunity to be actually Baptized.

This is what the Thief on the Cross experienced.
 

CharismaticLady

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Long after. I was baptized in the CoC, and they didn't even believe the Holy Spirit was anything but the ink on the pages of a Bible. Half of them would have fainted if they heard me speaking in tongues, and the other half would have started stoning me on the spot.

My first immersion baptism was in the SDA church I grew up in. My second immersion baptism was in CoC, but they believed in the gifts, and finally had to leave the denomination. Have you ever heard of Don Finto, Belmont Church of Christ? My third immersion baptism was after my baptism with the Holy Spirit at Jack Hayford's church, Church on the way. It is there that the Spirit impressed me to get water baptized, as if for the first time ever, so I did.
 

charity

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Well I guess people on their death beds accepting Christ cannot be saved
because they do not have the opportunity to be baptized?
Is THAT what you believe?

Are you a United Pentecostal?
I believe God is a just God and will accept these people without baptism.

Hi Triumph1300,

The answer to both your questions is 'NO'. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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Are you suggesting that under this "gospel of grace" there is no need to repent of your sins?

'But these are written,
that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'

(John 20:31)

Hello @Mungo,

Repentance was a necessary requirement for Israel as a nation, and the call of God to them through Peter in Acts 3:19-20, is the key to the whole period covered by the Acts of the Apostles and the epistles written during that time.

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you: .... '

(Acts 3:19-20)

For the world at large, it is believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, that brings life through His Name.(John 20:31) with no mention of repentance. Repentance follows though, as night follows day as the Holy Spirit uses His Sword to expose the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Mungo

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'But these are written,
that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'

(John 20:31)

Hello @Mungo,

Repentance was a necessary requirement for Israel as a nation, and the call of God to them through Peter in Acts 3:19-20, is the key to the whole period covered by the Acts of the Apostles and the epistles written during that time.

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you: .... '

(Acts 3:19-20)

For the world at large, it is believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, that brings life through His Name.(John 20:31) with no mention of repentance. Repentance follows though, as night follows day as the Holy Spirit uses His Sword to expose the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

That repentance follows automatically after conversion is a fantasy.
It's a falsity created by your false dispensationalist doctrine that tries to pit Paul against Jesus.
 
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