Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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101G

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Pressing toward to mark is glorification, not sanctification. We were cleansed of all sin when we truly repented of our weakness and cried out to God. He cleanses us of our past sin, and sets us apart unto good work, but then gives us the power through the baptism of the Holy Spirit to no longer commit sins of lawlessness. We are born again! We do not have the old carnal nature, but are now partakers of the DIVINE NATURE of God. We are no longer slaves to sin unto death, but are now children of God. John 8:34-36 and 2 Peter 1

Steps to glorification:
add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
ERROR, sanctification is to set aside for a work, glorified in adding to your faith, "GROWTH".
and yes, we're partakers of the DIVINE NATURE of God in the INNER man, but we have an outer man to deal with, (FLESH). Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (QUESTION, ARE YOU FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT 24/7?", NO.
Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." (we suggest you read that verse again)
Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

now our FAITH that saves, if you're born again, why ADD TO YOUR FAITH? 2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;"
2 Peter 1:6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;"2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity." .... ect...
now you're glorifying god in following the Spirit. but was you already perfect in these thing form the beginning?. no.
PICJAG.
 

CharismaticLady

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(QUESTION, ARE YOU FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT 24/7?

Yes. But you have to know who you are in Christ and love Him with all your heart continuously. I understand that you believe what I teach is error, but I KNOW the power of God. I'm curious if you just came to the first thing you didn't agree with from your years of believing 1 John 1:8 is about you, and didn't read or understand the scriptures I gave you?

Galatians 5:16-21 shows us that we are not condemned as long as we continuously walk in the Spirit. This is why Paul commanded us to not grieve, and especially never quench the Spirit.
 

Mungo

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* The verses you have quoted make no mention of water baptism @Mungo.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It doesn't have to say baptism with water every time the word baptism is mentioned. That is what baptism is. It's the default unless it is used as a metaphor for something else as in Mk 4:38-39 & LK 12:50.

It what the apostles understood by baptism. It's origins are Jewish

Jewish origins of Baptism
Baptise comes from the Greek word baptizein which means immerse or dip or plunge. However I think it is wrong to treat baptizein as simply a Greek word with various meanings. It is the name of a Jewish, and later Christian, ritual and therefore expresses the meaning of the ritual and not of all the Greek possibilities.

The origins are the ritual purification of full body washing known in Hebrew as tevilah in a mikvah (ritual bath). Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. Bathing would normally be by total immersion and naked to ensure every part of the body was purified.

There seem to be three occasions where a mikvar is required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases) and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it.

When the Jews and Evangelists wrote in Greek they avoided the Greek words for bathe and bath because of the sexual connotations. The Greek communal bathing was a place of gossip (often crude), communal nudity and homosexuality. So they used the word baptizein (and its derivatives) instead. The word therefore expresses this ritual purification in water. It is unnecessary to say “water baptism” as water was integral to the process, just as it was unnecessary to say a water mikvar or a water tevilah. That is what baptism was and is.

Now this baptism was prophesied by Ezekial (Ez 36:25-27): I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you….
I will sprinkle clean water upon you – baptism with water

Pre-Christian baptism in the New Testament
John the baptiser appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mk 1:4).

There was some expectation that the herald of the Messiah would baptise. “They [the Pharisees] asked him, ‘Why then are you baptising if you are neither the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?’” (Jn 1:25)

Then Jesus and the apostles themselves baptised in the river Jordan (Jn 3:22)

All of this was baptism in water. This is what the apostles understood by baptism.

Baptism with water is also foretold by Jesus when he says to Nicodemus “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3:5)

Christian Baptism
Baptism was inaugurated and mandated by Jesus just before his ascension into heaven.
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19).

In a sense Jesus instituted baptism as a means of salvation at his own baptism in the Jordan. There he was baptised in water “to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt 3:15), the Holy Spirit hovered over him. The Father watched. Thus in baptism we fulfil all righteousness.

But was the (Christian) baptism that is referred to in the New Testament with water in the same way as Jesus’ baptism? To answer that we can look at what 3 people understood by baptism in Acts (and remember baptism with water was what they were familiar with already).

Peter
After his speech at Pentecost, Peter said to those assembled: Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

What kind of baptism was this? Well we know what Peter understood by baptism because after Cornelius had been baptised by the Holy Spirit, Peter said:
Can anyone withhold the water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have? He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48).

There are three things to note about this:
1. Baptism was with water
2. It wasn’t John’s baptism because it was in the name of Jesus Christ
3. It wasn’t the so called "baptism with the Holy Spirit" because the Spirit had already fallen on Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:44)

Peter says about Noah and his family being “saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now” (1Pet 3:20-21). Again the reference is to water, so for Peter baptism was with water. (See post #269 above)

Note that at Pentecost, and with Cornelius, Peter calls this baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ”. Returning to Acts 2:38 we can note that this baptism (like John’s) was for the forgiveness of sins.

Philip
In Acts 8:36-38 we have Philip baptising the Ethiopian, clearly with water.
As they travelled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptised?”
Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptised him.

Just prior to this Philip had been baptising in Samaria. So we can reasonably assume that this too was with water.
..once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. (Acts 8:12)

Again there are three things to note about this baptism:
1. Baptism was with water
2. It wasn’t John’s baptism because it was in the name of Jesus (Acts 8:16)
3. It wasn’t the so called "baptism with the Holy Spirit" because the Spirit had not yet fallen on them (Acts 8:16). It was when Peter & John laid hands on the that they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17)

Paul
Paul’s own baptism by Ananias was reported in two places, firstly in Acts 9:18 and then reported by Paul in these words Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16). Having sins washed away is clearly a reference to water. And note the connection of the forgiveness of sin to (water) baptism in Acts 2:38, the baptism of John (Mk 1:4, Lk 3:3). So Paul understands baptism as being with water and for the forgiveness of sins.

Then in Acts 19 Paul comes across 12 men at Ephesus who have only been baptised with John’s baptism. He orders them to be baptised “in the name of Jesus” (verse 4). This, as I showed earlier, is baptism with water. Again this is not "baptism with the Holy Spirit" because the Holy Spirit fell on them after their baptism, when Paul laid hands on them (vs 6).

Finally regarding the quote I gave you: “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5). I gave an explanation of this at the end of post #269. But to save you looking it up, here it is - and it is definitely with water..

"…he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit (Ti 3:5- NAB).

Note that most translation say something like washing of regeneration but that misses something important. The word translated as washing is loutron (G3607) which is a noun not a verb.

G3067 loutron - From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.

There is one other place in the NT where the Greek loutron is used - Eph 5:25-26, where Jesus is comparing husband and wife to Christ and the Church
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath [loutron] of water with the word" (NAB). Again other translation use washing.

But loutron is important. It wasn't just any bath but a bridal bath. The bath a bride took on the morning before her wedding.

"The bride’s ritual bath took place on the morning of the wedding ceremony itself. The bathing ritual was a pivotal coming-of-age rite for the young bride. Indeed, if a girl died before being married, she would undergo this ritual of bathing after herdeath. The loutrophoros was used in this ritual ceremony to carry water. Vase-paintings seem to suggest that the groom did not bathe or that his bath was less important than the bride’s."
From The Nuptial Ceremony of Ancient Greece and the Articulation of Male Control Through Ritual by Casey Mason, Macalester College.

Christians are the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-26). So in Titus 3:5 Paul make bridal imagery of the loutron [bath in water] cleansing us spiritually to become ready for out nuptials with Christ.
 

101G

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Yes. But you have to know who you are in Christ and love Him with all your heart continuously. I understand that you believe what I teach is error, but I KNOW the power of God. I'm curious if you just came to the first thing you didn't agree with from your years of believing 1 John 1:8 is about you, and didn't read or understand the scriptures I gave you?

Galatians 5:16-21 shows us that we are not condemned as long as we continuously walk in the Spirit. This is why Paul commanded us to not grieve, and especially never quench the Spirit.
you said, "I'm curious if you just came to the first thing you didn't agree with from your years of believing 1 John 1:8 is about you, and didn't read or understand the scriptures I gave you?"
I believe that I said this is about Christians. but you cannot understand that Christian still do sin. scripture, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" now CharismaticLady, why do you suppose we have an advocate? because we sin. now if you're so filled with the Spirit you can do no wrong, then you don't NEED the comforter/Advocate. now if you said, "I'm filled" then it's not you who then are leading but Christ. so if you sin are you saying that christ is the minister of sin?. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."
Galatians 2:18 "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."
Galatians 2:19 "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."
Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
ok, if christ live in US then is we sin free? Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

please NOTE, if you're counstantly Filled and led of the Spirit, then one would not need a Advocate. but the Scriptures are clear, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, ye be lead. if is conditional, meaning not all the time.

Knowing this, that the present of the Lord is in you, to overcome something in your life, or a work of God, hence the filling of the Power of the Holy Spirit. better known as being Filled WITH the Holy Spirit, or being BAPTIZE "WIth" the Holy Spirit which is different from being Born again, or being BAPTIZE "of" the Spirit.

being Baptized "WITH" the Spirit or filled with the Power to do Something is not the Same of being "Born Again", or Baptize "of" the Spirit.

for to be filled with the Spirit is like a sexual climax, one cannot stay in that state all the time. the filling you speak of is from the fruit of being filled, joy, peace, happiness... ect with is not maintain 24/7, but are present.

PICJAG.
 
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CharismaticLady

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you said, "I'm curious if you just came to the first thing you didn't agree with from your years of believing 1 John 1:8 is about you, and didn't read or understand the scriptures I gave you?"
I believe that I said this is about Christians. but you cannot understand that Christian still do sin. scripture, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" now CharismaticLady, why do you suppose we have an advocate? because we sin. now if you're so filled with the Spirit you can do no wrong, then you don't NEED the comforter/Advocate. now if you said, "I'm filled" then it's not you who then are leading but Christ. so if you sin are you saying that christ is the minister of sin?. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."
Galatians 2:18 "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."
Galatians 2:19 "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."
Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
ok, if christ live in US then is we sin free? Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

please NOTE, if you're counstantly Filled and led of the Spirit, then one would not need a Advocate. but the Scriptures are clear, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, ye be lead. if is conditional, meaning not all the time.

Knowing this, that the present of the Lord is in you, to overcome something in your life, or a work of God, hence the filling of the Power of the Holy Spirit. better known as being Filled WITH the Holy Spirit, or being BAPTIZE "WIth" the Holy Spirit which is different from being Born again, or being BAPTIZE "of" the Spirit.

being Baptized "WITH" the Spirit or filled with the Power to do Something is not the Same of being "Born Again", or Baptize "of" the Spirit.

for to be filled with the Spirit is like a sexual climax, one cannot stay in that state all the time. the filling you speak of is from the fruit of being filled, joy, peace, happiness... ect with is not maintain 24/7, but are present.

PICJAG.

Yes, Christians do sin, but what kind? 1 John 5:14-15. Christians do not commit any of the sins in Galatians 5:19-21. Notice that 1 John 2:1 there is no mention of repentance, or confessing of sins, so is Jesus our Advocate now for murder and we need not repent? Or is Jesus our Advocate when we commit an unintentional sin that we may not even know about, but nothing is unknown to God.

being Baptized "WITH" the Spirit or filled with the Power to do Something is not the Same of being "Born Again", or Baptize "of" the Spirit.

Where do you see in Scripture that being filled with the Spirit is only temporary? Whether or not the feeling as in a "sexual climax" is just temporary, the fact of the matter is you are now ONE. I feel His presence in me, continually. I can't speak for anyone else and and their personal status.
 
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101G

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Yes, Christians do sin, but what kind? 1 John 5:14-15. Christians do not commit any of the sins in Galatians 5:19-21. Notice that 1 John 2:1 there is no mention of repentance, or confessing of sins, so is Jesus our Advocate now for murder and we need not repent? Or is Jesus our Advocate when we commit an unintentional sin that we may not even know about, but nothing is unknown to God.
did you read Post 271?. Repentance is a one time thing. listen, Mark 1:4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." no need to change one mind again, you done that. an Advocate is need when you have rights or is declared RIGHTIOUS, understand now? see outside the body of Christ you're lost, and in need of help.
confessing of sins is to Christ, and not a priest, but the HIGH PRIEST. for if we confess HE, HE, HE, is just to ..... "FORGIVE" us of our sins, and the he here is our advocate.
Where do you see in Scripture that being filled with the Spirit is only temporary? Whether or not the feeling as in a "sexual climax" is just temporary, the fact of the matter is you are now ONE. I feel His presence in me, continually. I can't speak for anyone else and and their personal status.
when the spirit empower one to do the work. can you preach all day everyday? ... no.
PICJAG.

PS, yes christian do sin, but "what kind?". are you serious? what kind? I'll leave that alone.
 

101G

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I agree.



Do you believe the Holy Spirit is only for outside work, and not for us individually?
we agree with you also, and yes, not all that you have said are in error either. I commend your belief. and encourage you to keep the faith. but we are still in these bodies of flesh. this is where our fight is at.
Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
please don't misunderstand me, you and I both know, (and agree), that the Holy Spirit is in us, but he moves us as he see fit. he's not going anywhere, (smile, thank God). hence our training. scripture, John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

that right there is enough for us to keep us to keep busy in him. believe on him, and you're doing that, as we see. so be filled with the Spirit until he returns, that your joy be full. be blessed. amen.

PICJAG.
 
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CharismaticLady

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we agree with you also, and yes, not all that you have said are in error either. I commend your belief. and encourage you to keep the faith. but we are still in these bodies of flesh. this is where our fight is at.
Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
please don't misunderstand me, you and I both know, (and agree), that the Holy Spirit is in us, but he moves us as he see fit. he's not going anywhere, (smile, thank God). hence our training. scripture, John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

that right there is enough for us to keep us to keep busy in him. believe on him, and you're doing that, as we see. so be filled with the Spirit until he returns, that your joy be full. be blessed. amen.

PICJAG.

I also want to clarify that what I agreed to that you said, that our repentance is a one time thing, is also the confession and repentance of 1 John 1:9. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all about those without the Spirit of Christ abiding in them. They are self-righteous, or are believing a heinous false doctrine that we even have today, back then a similar doctrine about sins of the flesh was called Gnosticism, and they are not Christians even though they may know about Him and even want Him to give them eternal life, but without having to walk in the Spirit. They don't have the Spirit so do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Matthew 26 was before the Holy Spirit was given to Christ's followers. Our bodies growing old is still from Adam's sin, but that is not the "flesh" interpreted as our carnal nature/the old man. Romans 8:9 is when our nature has been filled with the Spirit of Christ and empowered to not sin, such as 1 John 3:9. Our born again nature is called the divine nature. 2 Peter 1
 
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Marymog

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Because all Christians should stick to the Five Solas, including the CC. You can't go wrong on that basis.
Hi Enoch,

The "Sola" theory doesn't work:

  • Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”)
  • Sola Fide (“faith alone”)
  • Sola Gratia (“grace alone”)
  • Solus Christus (“Christ alone”)
  • Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”)

How can one stick to FIVE different "alones"?


The Sola theory started 1,500 years after Christ died.

Using Sola Scriptura show me where Scripture teaches the 5 Sola theory? James 2:24 contradicts Sola Fide so you have only four left.

Why do you accept the 500 year teaching of the Protestant men and not the 2,000 year teaching of The Church?

Patient Mary
 

Marymog

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They looked forward to the cross, we look back. Its all by faith. Read Heb 11. If water baptism is necessary for us, it would have been necessary for them. God is not a God of confusion.
Your theory makes no sense. The old law is different than the new law under Jesus sooooo what is "necessary" now was not "necessary" then and what was necessary then is not necessary now. Worship changed from Saturday to Sunday, dietary restrictions, circumcision, what Jesus said we must do etc. has changed and is necessary for us NT Christians. I agree with you that God is not a God of confusion but men who improperly interpret his words are confused.

From whom did you learn this theory?
 

Nondenom40

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Your theory makes no sense. The old law is different than the new law under Jesus sooooo what is "necessary" now was not "necessary" then and what was necessary then is not necessary now. Worship changed from Saturday to Sunday, dietary restrictions, circumcision, what Jesus said we must do etc. has changed and is necessary for us NT Christians. I agree with you that God is not a God of confusion but men who improperly interpret his words are confused.

From whom did you learn this theory?
Scripture is theory now?

John 8:56
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." NASB

Messiah has been someone Israel was looking for ever since Gen 3:15. Again, read Hebrews 11. What is mentioned other than faith? In the n.t. again, its faith. Not faith + _________.
 

Nondenom40

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Hi Enoch,

The "Sola" theory doesn't work:

  • Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”)
  • Sola Fide (“faith alone”)
  • Sola Gratia (“grace alone”)
  • Solus Christus (“Christ alone”)
  • Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”)
How can one stick to FIVE different "alones"?
Not too familiar with the reformation are you? Each of the solas are direct responses to specific roman catholic teachings.
Sola scriptura, scripture alone is in opposition to the false roman catholic teaching that;
scripture
sacred tradition
the 'infallible' magesterium, are all equal to Gods written word.

Sola fide, faith alone is in opposition to the false roman catholic doctrine of faith + works. You can figure out the rest on your own.

The Sola theory started 1,500 years after Christ died.
Nothing is equal to Gods written word. That goes back a bit further than 500 years ago. Faith alone goes back a bit further than 500 years ago.

Using Sola Scriptura show me where Scripture teaches the 5 Sola theory? James 2:24 contradicts Sola Fide so you have only four left.
Catholics don't understand James. The only verse ever trotted out in James is 2:24. You do realize there is a lot more to James than 2:24 right? James nowhere contradicts sola fide.
Why do you accept the 500 year teaching of the Protestant men and not the 2,000 year teaching of The Church?

Patient Mary
Your church hasn't been around for 2000 years. And i accept in and believe the promises of God. The rcc is the one with a false canon, false holy father, a false gospel....Why do you believe everything your church shoves down your throat? Why are you going to believe the next dogma that comes down from your pope that he proclaims ex cathedra that will be found nowhere in scripture?
 
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Marymog

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Not too familiar with the reformation are you? Each of the solas are direct responses to specific roman catholic teachings.
Sola scriptura, scripture alone is in opposition to the false roman catholic teaching that;
scripture
sacred tradition
the 'infallible' magesterium, are all equal to Gods written word.

Sola fide, faith alone is in opposition to the false roman catholic doctrine of faith + works. You can figure out the rest on your own.


Nothing is equal to Gods written word. That goes back a bit further than 500 years ago. Faith alone goes back a bit further than 500 years ago.

Catholics don't understand James. The only verse ever trotted out in James is 2:24. You do realize there is a lot more to James than 2:24 right? James nowhere contradicts sola fide.

Your church hasn't been around for 2000 years. And i accept in and believe the promises of God. The rcc is the one with a false canon, false holy father, a false gospel....Why do you believe everything your church shoves down your throat? Why are you going to believe the next dogma that comes down from your pope that he proclaims ex cathedra that will be found nowhere in scripture?
I am very familiar with the revolution (Reformation) that divided Christianity. All the reformers disagreed with the CC on SOME doctrine and they all disagreed with each other on how one obtains salvation and they all disagreed with each other on the 5 Sola's soooo Why do you believe everything the reformers shoved down your throat?
 

Nondenom40

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No. Your interpretation of Scripture is theory.
Catholics love to disagree for the sake of disagreeing but don't like to dig into the details. Tell us, was Jesus pretending Abraham was light in the head when he made those remarks? Abraham had no concept of a messiah? Jesus is spewing a 'theory' in John 8? Please tell us the infallible roman catholic interpretation.
 

Helen

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Why do you believe everything the reformers shoved down your throat?


Your church tells you what to believe....for us who are not of your church...the Holy spirit speaks to us, no man.
( and please please please do not bring up your old old worn out argument about so many denominations, "so how can the Holy Spirit have lead in different ways and speak differently to different groups...blah blah blah")

We walk individually together...in the Holy Spirit.
 

Enoch111

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Why do you accept the 500 year teaching of the Protestant men and not the 2,000 year teaching of The Church?
That is hardly the point. The Reformers were simply serious about getting back to Bible truth. You can ignore the Five Solas and still arrive at the same conclusions by simply studying and believing the Gospel as presented in the Bible. So we are not following the Reformers but believing the Word of God.
 
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Mungo

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What is mentioned other than faith? In the n.t. again, its faith. Not faith + _________.

Um!
How about what Jesus said?
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

Faith + baptism = salvation according to Jesus.
Seems clear enough to me.
 
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