Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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Nondenom40

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Um!
How about what Jesus said?
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

Faith + baptism = salvation according to Jesus.
Seems clear enough to me.
You selectively chose not to cite the other half of that verse. Water baptism has nothing to do with our salvation. Placing your faith in Jesus does. You have to ignore the mountain of verses that say faith, with no other qualifier which leads to salvation. But you want some ritual to be necessary for salvation. Salvation is found in a person, not a ritual.
 

Marymog

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Catholics love to disagree for the sake of disagreeing but don't like to dig into the details. Tell us, was Jesus pretending Abraham was light in the head when he made those remarks? Abraham had no concept of a messiah? Jesus is spewing a 'theory' in John 8? Please tell us the infallible roman catholic interpretation.
Ummmm.....your disagreeing with me. Are you Catholic? ;)

Is your interpretation infallible?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Your church tells you what to believe....for us who are not of your church...the Holy spirit speaks to us, no man.
( and please please please do not bring up your old old worn out argument about so many denominations, "so how can the Holy Spirit have lead in different ways and speak differently to different groups...blah blah blah")

We walk individually together...in the Holy Spirit.
Hi BG,

Who is "us"?

Why don't you want me to bring it up? Because it destroys your theory?

To whom did the Holy Spirit speak to when Christianity was told what books belong in our bible? Only Protestant men? o_O

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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That is hardly the point. The Reformers were simply serious about getting back to Bible truth. You can ignore the Five Solas and still arrive at the same conclusions by simply studying and believing the Gospel as presented in the Bible. So we are not following the Reformers but believing the Word of God.
Hi Enoch,

How did the reformers get back to "Bible truth" when all their truths were different? How many truths can their be.....:rolleyes:

The reformers said they were not going to follow the CC and only believe the Word of God....that worked out sooooo well for unity in Christianity now didn't it?

Mary
 

Marymog

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Your church tells you what to believe....
And you tell you what to believe???? Where is that in Scripture? I thought Scripture said that the Church was the pillar and foundation of truth? Are you saying that YOU are the pillar and foundation of truth?

Curious Mary
 
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Mungo

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You selectively chose not to cite the other half of that verse. Water baptism has nothing to do with our salvation. Placing your faith in Jesus does. You have to ignore the mountain of verses that say faith, with no other qualifier which leads to salvation. But you want some ritual to be necessary for salvation. Salvation is found in a person, not a ritual.

Jesus says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Just have faith in Jesus words.

Are you disbelieving Jesus?
 

Helen

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Hi BG,

Who is "us"?

Why don't you want me to bring it up? Because it destroys your theory?

To whom did the Holy Spirit speak to when Christianity was told what books belong in our bible? Only Protestant men? o_O

Curious Mary

US , is anyone not in or of your church.
As for your question = "why don't you want me to bring it up"
Ive told you before...it's just some stupid stock argument that 'you think' has some validity.

I just got through telling you once again...sigh WHY .
Halloween Street Preaching

No doubt you will continue to ask the same foolish question over and over again.

Why do YOU think the Holy Spirit speaks different things to different people and give different emphasis on different doctrines and beliefs? Because He very obviously does do so.

What is YOUR answer?
 

justbyfaith

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Um!
How about what Jesus said?
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

Faith + baptism = salvation according to Jesus.
Seems clear enough to me.

Mar 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice it does not say that "he who is baptized not shall be damned."

Jhn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In the above verses, one speaks of absolute terminoligy and the other speaks of iffy terminology.

I conclude that it is absolutely certain that one will be saved if he believes and is baptized; but that if he believes only, there is the possibility of losing one's salvation.

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is speaking of a heart faith (that usually comes through such things as baptism in Jesus' name); while the following speaks of a shallow, nominal, or lukewarm faith:

Luk 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe and are baptized will have the heart faith that is spoken of in John 6:47; and therefore they will endure to the end. I believe that this is because they have made a concrete confession of Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and therefore they are willing from the getgo to endure persecution and whatever trial or hardship will come to them because of their faith.

Those who are not baptized, because they receive the word anonymously, are more likely to abandon the faith when persecution or trial comes because of the word.

But if they do persevere, their faith will save them even if they do not have baptism as an addition.
 

DoveSpirit05

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Just like every other catholic that can't answer questions. Just claim the other guy is wrong:rolleyes:
As though that's a meaningful apologetic.

I was like dat, I grow up catholic, the subject would come up about who came 1st Christians or Catholics and every time my response would be catholics but in a moody tone, its a knee jurk reaction!! with no actual proof just conjecture, when u build up an assumption in ur mind and then someone comes along and says it wrong u get mad coz its the carnal mind manifesting, its kinda like 2 people fighting over which football team is the best.

they've built up a stronghold over a false religion and their gonna wrestle with it coz its their "Pride and Joy" not 2 mention its a demonic religion dats why their fruit is bad and they've been covering it up 4 centuries I mean proof is in the pudding guy's. what does the bible say, we wrestle not against the flesh but against principalities and wicked spirits in high places! their whole organisation is demonised weather they choose 2 believe it or not bottom line!!
 

CovenantPromise

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[
Hi Enoch,

The "Sola" theory doesn't work:

  • Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”)
  • Sola Fide (“faith alone”)
  • Sola Gratia (“grace alone”)
  • Solus Christus (“Christ alone”)
  • Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”)
How can one stick to FIVE different "alones"?


The Sola theory started 1,500 years after Christ died.

Using Sola Scriptura show me where Scripture teaches the 5 Sola theory? James 2:24 contradicts Sola Fide so you have only four left.

Why do you accept the 500 year teaching of the Protestant men and not the 2,000 year teaching of The Church?

Patient Mary
It won't, but it will support scripture alone and not meaning outside of the other 4 you mention . But meaning ,the doctrine in which all received from the elect , predestined of Jews, is the means by which any assembly outside of the first , even exist. AGAIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT THE FIRST ASSEMBLY OR ONLY ASSEMBLY. The song of Solomon proves that. And since the Roman church is grafted in, how can it be the first church? And I argue they exist because of the scriptures alone . Whether received by word of mouth, which is how the Christian Jew began to reach men, it was spoken doctrine that would become/became written to lay the foundation. But it was always scripture. You know of Christ through scripture alone as do all moving forward from the first. If men of the catholic church did not compile the scriptures from those who had them in hand before the Catholic church even existed, you would not. Every assembly within gentile nations exist because of the scriptures alone.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
All Scripture is God-Breathed
…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

It is clear all doctrines formed after the foundation was laid ,must all line up with the foundation. There is nothing, if inspired by God as doctrine that men create , that cannot be found in the scriptures alone. Whether messages from heaven in the form of apparitions, personal revelation or men creating doctrine, all must be able to be support by the scriptures. If you cannot find it in the foundation then the foundation will consume it.
Psalm 12:5-7
The Godly are No More
…5“For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.” 6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…
That means anything God gives or inspires men to write moving forward from the first to know, God proves His own Word with His word. The scriptures are the proof, refinement, that lets us know it is God approved! In other words, God proves His own words and will show us with scripture if a person is truly receiving Revelations of Him or not. This, so we are not fooled and for training in righteousness, that we may be fully equipped for every good work.
2 Peter 1:20-21
Eyewitnesses of His Majesty
…20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

To (understand) the language of scripture however, comes by the Holy Spirit.

The point concerning scripture alone is,everything must be tested with it. Even the Catechism is tested by the scriptures, not the other way around.
So in that manner, yes, scripture alone is the measure.
1 Corinthians 3:9-11
Christ Our Foundation
9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.…

2 Thessalonians 2:
Stand Firm
…14To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter. 16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God our Father, who by grace has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope,…

No one can say that it is (not) the scriptures ALONE,that are profitable for doctrine =making, for conviction = convicting someone with proof in scripture that they are wrong, for correcting =when someone is wrong, for training in righteousness = when we believe -have faith in the scriptures it is accounted to us as righteousness making us friends of God. So that we may be complete= whole in doctrine and fully equipped for every good work =knowledgeable in what God wants for us.
 

CovenantPromise

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Catholics have a problem with arrogance. Time for you to be set aright by Paul and interestingly enough it is through the letter to the Romans. You are in direct line of inheritance YES but don't be arrogant like you are the means by which the faith came to be . The Roman church is a direct heir because you came about through direct grafting in from Peter and Paul. Unlike the Protestants who are a splinter group which came about through the harlotry of the hierarchy of your assembly. I am not blaming the little ones.

Romans 11:1-36
The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well” ?

4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see,

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”

9And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”

The Ingrafting of the Gentiles

11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Shall Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

27And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

A Hymn of Praise
https://biblehub.com/bsb/jude/1.htm#24

33O, the depth of the riches

of the wisdom and knowledge of God!

How unsearchable His judgments,

and untraceable His ways!

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has been His counselor?”

35“Who has first given to God,

that God should repay him?”

36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
 

Marymog

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US , is anyone not in or of your church.
As for your question = "why don't you want me to bring it up"
Ive told you before...it's just some stupid stock argument that 'you think' has some validity.

I just got through telling you once again...sigh WHY .
Halloween Street Preaching

No doubt you will continue to ask the same foolish question over and over again.

Why do YOU think the Holy Spirit speaks different things to different people and give different emphasis on different doctrines and beliefs? Because He very obviously does do so.

What is YOUR answer?
Thank you.

You said "the Holy spirit speaks to us, no man." I asked you "Who is us?". Your answer is "US , is anyone not in or of your church." Is not your church made up of men (and women of course)? Your response makes no sense to me. Do you feel comfortable telling me to whom the HS is speaking to?

If the Holy Spirit is speaking to everyone BUT the men of my Church then why do you all have different doctrine with some of your doctrine copying what the CC teaches? CC doctrine is wrong unless a majority of Protestants say that it is right.....Very confusing!!!!

My answer is the Holy Spirit guides The Church into sound doctrine. There are many men, such as the reformers, who believed/thought they were being guided by the HS into sound doctrine. That CLEARLY can not be true since they all came up with different "sound doctrine'.

I believe the HS used my love of history to guide me to the CC. By studying the history of Christianity and reading the Apostolic and ECF's the CC is clearly an Apostolic Church.


Did the Holy Spirit guide you to believe that the CC is not The Church spoken of in scripture?

Mary
 

Marymog

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More digressions. Like clockwork.
YOU SAID: Catholics love to disagree.....

You keep disagreeing with me sooooo using your logic....Your Catholic ;)

YOU asked for the infallible roman catholic interpretation.

What is wrong with me asking you if your interpretation is infallible? It's the same question your asking me kiddo....

I know what it is....you like to ask questions but don't like to answer questions. I wonder why?

Mary
 

Mungo

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Mar 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice it does not say that "he who is baptized not shall be damned."

.
The simple answer is that if you don't believe Jesus words "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" then he that believeth not shall be damned.

Biblically disobedience is the same as disbelief.

However there are different reasons why a person may not be baptised and so God may not hold it against them.

I'm away from home at the moment so cannot go deeper into it than that.
 

Nondenom40

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The simple answer is that if you don't believe Jesus words "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" then he that believeth not shall be damned.

Biblically disobedience is the same as disbelief.

However there are different reasons why a person may not be baptised and so God may not hold it against them.

I'm away from home at the moment so cannot go deeper into it than that.
Why isn't that the consistent form used then?

Luke 7:50
50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Wheres baptism?

Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Wheres baptism? The fact is catholics are all over the map on this. Baptism is part of salvation you say. But so is penance, so are other sacraments, so are 'works'. The fact is only faith in Jesus is required. Baptism and other works come after we are saved.
 
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Marymog

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And the church consists of all those who believe in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross.
Nice theory. Lets see if it holds up to what Scripture says.

There are several billion Christians in this world who believe in Jesus. Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 timothy 3:15). Which one of the billions of Christians on this earth is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Which one of the billions of Christians has the authority to fulfill the authoritive Church that decides who should be treated as a pagan or tax collector is of spoken of in Matthew 18:17?

Once you give me a logical answer to both of those questions, which are based on your theory, I will revert back to Protestantism.