Re: Hebrew Idioms and 2 Peter 3:8

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AusDisciple

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In reply to this topic and, in particular, Christina's reference to 2 Peter 3:8, we need to keep in mind the context of the entire verse when studying the meaning of Peter's reference to time.What he is referring to is the fact that God exists outside time, therefore, our perception of time is a human limitation not applicable to God. Peter is simply stating that in God's view, one day or a thousand years is irrelevant in the context of eternity.There are several very good studies on this topic and the majority of Christians seem to agree (although there are steadfast differences of opinion on this scripture).Here's a few sources....(Albert Barnes)
This 2Pe_3:8-9 is the second consideration by which the apostle meets the objection of scoffers against the doctrine of the second coming of the Saviour. The objection was, that much time, and perhaps the time which had been supposed to be set for his coming, had passed away, and still all things remained as they were. The reply of the apostle is, that no argument could be drawn from this, for that which may seem to be a long time to us is a brief period with God. In the infinity of his own duration there is abundant time to accomplish his designs, and it can make no difference with him whether they are accomplished in one day or extended to one thousand years. Man has but a short time to live, and if he does not accomplish his purposes in a very brief period, he never will. But it is not so with God. He always lives; and we cannot therefore infer, because the execution of His purposes seems to be delayed, that they are abandoned. With Him who always lives it will be as easy to accomplish them at a far distant period as now. If it is His pleasure to accomplish them in a single day, He can do it; if He chooses that the execution shall be deferred to one thousand years, or that one thousand years shall be consumed in executing them, He has power to carry them onward through what seems, to us, to be so vast a duration. The wicked, therefore, cannot infer that they will escape because their punishment is delayed; nor should the righteous fear that the divine promises will fail because ages pass away before they are accomplished. The expression here used, that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, etc.,” is common in the Rabbinical writings. See Wetstein in loc. A similar thought occurs in Psa_90:4; “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”
and(Adam Clarke)
One day is with the Lord as a thousand years - That is: All time is as nothing before him, because in the presence as in the nature of God all is eternity; therefore nothing is long, nothing short, before him; no lapse of ages impairs his purposes, nor need he wait to find convenience to execute those purposes. And when the longest period of time has passed by, it is but as a moment or indivisible point in comparison of eternity. This thought is well expressed by Plutarch, Consol. ad Apoll.: “If we compare the time of life with eternity, we shall find no difference between long and short. Τα γαρ χιλια, και τα μυρια ετη, στιγμη τις εστιν αοριστος, μαλλον δε μοριον τι βραχυτατον στιγμης· for a thousand or ten thousand years are but a certain indefinite point, or rather the smallest part of a point.” The words of the apostle seem to be a quotation from Psa_90:4.
and (John Gill)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,.... Here the apostle addresses the saints he writes unto, and for whom he had a tender affection and regard, and for whose welfare he was concerned, lest they should be stumbled at the length of time since the promise of the coming of Christ was given, and which these scoffers object; and therefore he would have them know, observe, and consider this one thing, which might be of great use to them to make their minds easy, and keep up their faith and expectation of the coming of Christ: that one day is, with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; referring either to Psa_90:4; or to a common saying among the Jews, founded on the same passage, הק בה אלף שנים יומו של, "the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years" (z); suggesting, that though between thirty and forty years had elapsed since the promise was given out that Christ would come again, and should even a thousand, or two thousand years more, run off, before the coming of Christ, yet this should be no objection to the accomplishment of the promise; for though such a number of years is very considerable among men, ye not "with God", as the Arabic and Ethiopic versions read, with whom a thousand years, and even eternity itself, is but as a day, Isa_43:13.
and(quote source)(Jonathan Sarfati)
Question: Doesn’t 2 Peter 3:8 indicate that the days of creation might not be literal, but thousands of years long? Answer: 2 Peter 3:8–9 reads: ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’ The first thing to note that the context has nothing to do with the days of creation. Also, it is not defining a day because it doesn’t say ‘a day is a thousand years’. The correct understanding is derived from the context — the Apostle Peter’s readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are. The text says ‘one day is like [or as] a thousand years’ — the word ‘like’ (or ‘as’) shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years — to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same. The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter’s statement ‘do not forget’ implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads: ‘For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.’ This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that the same Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148). The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective. In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there — the Hebrew word for day, yôm, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’.
 

Christina

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These are mens interpitations not Gods there is no presedence for this except modern mens wordsIts a Hebrew figure of speech as recorded in Jewish references understand ancient Hebrew and customs in key to understanding deeper things of scripture this idea of "Out side of Time" is found nowhere outside the Christain Church ... It is not support in the Hebrew or the greek or the custom of the day believe what you like but that fact Is Peter knew exactly what he was saying.We see these examples throughout scripture "To uncover your Fathers Nakedness" is another Hebrew idiom meaning to Lie with your fathers wife (in a sexual manner) God knows exactly what he is saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jewish figure of Speech concerning One day as a thousand yearsA common saying among the Jews, founded on the same passage, (Mynv Pla hb "qh) (lv wmwy) , "the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years" this phrase should be thought to refer, as it is by some, to the day of judgment, and be expressive of the duration of that: it is certain that the Jews interpreted days of millenniums, and reckoned millenniums by days, and used this phrase in confirmation of it. Thus they say (F1), ``in the time to come, which is in the last days, on the sixth day, which is the sixth millennium, when the Messiah comes, for the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' And a little after, ``"the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man". This is in the time of the Messiah which is in the sixth day.'' (6000th year)And elsewhere (F2,) ``the sixth degree is called the sixth day, the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.So they call the sabbath, or seventh day, the seventh millennium, and interpret( F3) ``"the song for the sabbath day", (Psalms 92:1) title, for the seventh millennium, for one day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' To which agrees the tradition of Elias, which runs thus (F4) ``it is the tradition of the house of Elias, that the world shall be six thousand years, two thousand years void (of the law), two thousand years the law, and two thousand years the days of the Messiah;'' for they suppose that the six days of the creation were expressive of the six thousand years in which the world will stand; and that the seventh day prefigures the last millennium, in which will be the day of judgment, and the world to come; for ``the six days of the creation (they say ) is a sign or intimation of these things: on the sixth day man was created; and on the seventh his work was finished; so the kings of the nations of the world (continue) five millenniums, answering to the five days, ............................................One Day of God is 1000 years a millenium this is Jewish Idiom (figure of speech) that was in common useby Rabbinical Jews of Jesus day a week would be spoken as 7,000 years (7 millenium) this is used in terminology of Genesis and the Lords Day 1000 years (one millieuim) .. also see 2 Peter 3:8
 

AusDisciple

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I am fully aware of those Jewish interpretations too. It looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It is going to take something pretty convincing to change what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me in my studies.Besides, we can ask Christ personally when we pass on from our limited physical understanding and meet in His kingdom. I'm sure we're not going to lose our salvation over such matters.
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Jordan

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I am fully aware of those Jewish interpretations too. It looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It is going to take something pretty convincing to change what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me in my studies.Besides, we can ask Christ personally when we pass on from our limited physical understanding and meet in His kingdom. I'm sure we're not going to lose our salvation over such matters.
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Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.I think I rather stick with what God's says. There is no new thing under the sun.
 

Alpha and Omega

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I found this rather interesting.
One might ask, how can a day be a thousand years and a thousand years be a day? This sounds rather absurd. But, using scientific knowledge, the absurd becomes logical. It is called Einstein's Theory of Relativity - Time Dilation.Here is a mathematical explanation: Say, if a spaceship traveling at 80% the speed of light for 1 hour, how much time has passed by relative to Earth? Δt' = γ Δt . . = Δt / √( 1 - v² / c² ) . . = ( 1 hr ) / √( 1 - ( 0.8c )² / c² ) . . = 1 hr / √( 1 - 0.64 ) . . = 1 hr / 0.6 . . = 1.667 hrThe earth experiences 1.667 hours. Therefore, the spaceship is effectively traveling to the future as 1 hour on the spaceship traveling at 80% the speed of light equals 1.667 hours on Earth. Reading the verse again (2 Peter 3:8), how fast is the Lord traveling so that a thousand years on Earth is like a day with Him? Solution: Δt=t_0/√(1-v²/c²)1000 years=1day/√(1-v²/299,792,458² )365250 days x √(1-v²/299,792,458² )=1 day133407562500 x (1-v² / 89875517873681764) = 1133407562500-133407562500v²/89 875517873681764=1-33407562500v²/898755178736817 64=-133407562499-33407562500v²= -11990073767863191518066568236v²=89875517873008072.672541095 531972v=299792457.998876403809564537 24992 The answer is 299,792,457.998876403809564537 24992 m/s. The speed of light is exactly 299,792,458 m/s. It strangely yields a resultant of 99.999999999625% of the speed of light. This is truly baffling.We should take note of the strange accuracy of the verse. It could result to any random number, but what is truly baffling is that it registers a resulting answer digit for digit accuracy of the speed light except for the last digit before the decimal.The answer obviously should be less than the speed of light because time will cease to exist at infinity at the speed of light. The Bible has clearly demonstrated by this simple verse on its precise accuracy of scientific facts way beyond its time. The first quantitative estimate of the speed of light was only made in 1676 by Ole Christensen Rømer and Time Dilation by Einstein only in 1905. How is it possible that the ancient Bible holds hidden knowledge of time dilation and the speed of light? This is quite strange which offers no logical explanation.Either we dismiss this as mere coincidence or we accept the Bible as a book of truth. This is no longer a matter of belief, but rather a matter of accepting reality.
 

AusDisciple

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Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.I think I rather stick with what God's says. There is no new thing under the sun.
and I agree which is why I am sticking with what God has told me through scripture.You have to admit, the Jews were sticklers for fine details and quite stubborn. This is evident in how Jesus responded to their misconceptions about the Sabbath.Matthew 12:1-13 1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12#fen-NIV-23496a]a[/url]] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." 9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
 

Christina

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you are free to disagree but you will never fully understand scripture without this knowledgeDo you believe there is a Millenium (1000 year) period at the End of this age? If so why do you think it is called the Lords Day its a 1000 years long a millenium Jewish Encyclopedia 1904 volume viii page 593. Shows how that even the enemies of Christ and His church know more than the average believer of today.Millennium: The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years,(The Day of the Lord/ A Day with the Lord) which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also "chiliasm," In the Greek Church chiliasm was displaced entirely by Origen's Neoplatonic mysticism, and was kept alive only in the Oriental branches of that communion.God is not a fool and the Hebrew and Greek are fixed languages if he had meant out side of time or forever he would have used words depicting as they are used several times in scripture I prefer to trust my Father over men if he said this its exactly what he meant .... Further more it has been about 6000 years sense Adam then we have the Millenium 1000years making one week (7000 years) Gods DaysAnd on the 7th day God rested as he will do again ... unless of course you think God takes every 7 literal Days off and leaves us to our own devices... There is not a shred of evidence anywhere in scripture that leads one to any other conclusion it is strickley a ,misinterpation/understanding by men. God doesnt leave any truth out of scripture and he hasnt this one either.
 

Jordan

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Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.I think I rather stick with what God's says. There is no new thing under the sun.
and I agree which is why I am sticking with what God has told me through scripture.You have to admit, the Jews were sticklers for fine details and quite stubborn. This is evident in how Jesus responded to their misconceptions about the Sabbath.Matthew 12:1-13 1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12#fen-NIV-23496a]a[/url]] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." 9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.This story is unrelated to II Peter 3:8. Those "Jews" you speak of Danni are not of Judah. They are the Jews that calls themselves Jews but are liars. (Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9) Peter whom Christ used is a Jew that knows God's timing. 1 Day = 1000 years does not mean its a metaphor. In fact is quite very important to understand prophecy.I Thessalonians 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.(Christina;67210)
...I prefer to trust my Father over men if he said this its exactly what he meant...
Ditto
 

Christina

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This is the Lords Day or One Day with the Lord Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 

AusDisciple

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This story is unrelated to II Peter 3:8. Those "Jews" you speak of Danni are not of Judah. They are the Jews that calls themselves Jews but are liars. (Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9) Peter whom Christ used is a Jew that knows God's timing. 1 Day = 1000 years does not mean its a metaphor. In fact is quite very important to understand prophecy.I Thessalonians 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
I realise it is not related to 2 Peter 3:8 but that was not my point.Looking at the whole 1 day and 1000 years thing with Alpha and Omega's post and Einstein's equations in mind, we could all be correct on this simultaneously which makes sense when you consider we are all Christians lead by God's written word AND His Holy Spirit who writes the word on our hearts so it is alive in us, through Christ.
 

Christina

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Einstein's equations ?????????????????? was he a man do we follow men ????????????? Whats wrong with this picture are you listening to Einstein because it fits ones scientific explantions you have chosen to believe there fore making one right in their opinions ??? I for one chose to believe God rather it fits with what my human mind can understand or not. Is our goal to follow Einstein or hear Gods Word??Can Anyone come up with bit of Biblical proof to the contrary... Sorry I dont accept Einstein or any man as my biblical proof of anything ... God says other wise that enough for me ..
 

AusDisciple

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Einstein's equations ?????????????????? was he a man do we follow men ????????????? Whats wrong with this picture are you listening to Einstein because it fits your scientific explantions you have chosen to believe there fore making you right in your opinions ??? I for one chose to believe God rather it fits with what my human mind can understand or not. Is our goal to follow Einstein or hear Gods Word??
Actually, they BOTH agree simultaneously and harmoniously but you will not be able to see that unless you understand the theory of relativity. It makes perfect sense but you need to broaden your horizons to see it.Neither you nor me can refute what God chooses to reveal personally to each other but if you were to take a look outside the box, you'd see that this is perfectly harmonious as is the case with God in His perfection.I do not mean any disrespect Christina but I can see this from both perspectives and it DOES make sense scripturally and scientifically from ALL perspectives simultaneously. Science is NOT at odds with God here so I have no problem with accepting this harmony.1 day can = 1000 years at the same time as Peter speaking about how time is irrelevant to God because He exists outside time (He created time and space simultaneously when He created the Heavens and the Earth... or the Universe).
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Christina

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I do understand it but I will never comprise Gods word for it .. again I say come up with any Biblical proof I dont take mans Word over Gods.. Period. Einstien may have his part in the explanations ofthe science of time ect. but it is not as you see it,If ..it contradicts God, you are taking Origen's Neoplatonic mysticism, explation over Gods Word because it agrees with Einstein's theroy ???? ... be my guest ...but dont try to convince me God is wrong .. I have scripture and God to back me up ... It has been about 6000 years sense Adam then we have the Millenium 1000 years making one week (7000 years) Gods Days And on the 7th day God rested as he will do again ... Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
 

AusDisciple

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God has revealed one side of this to you and another side to me and through sharing here, has taught us that there's multiple levels to this scripture, just as there is with all of His scriptures.He reveals to us what we are ready to understand, when we are ready to understand it and in a way that we can understand. In the fullness of time, ALL will be revealed to us in His kingdom.FWIW - The sky is clear.... it just appears blue
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Jordan

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I do understand it but I will never comprise Gods word for it .. again I say come up with any Biblical proof I dont take mans Word over Gods.. Period. Einstien may have his part in the explanations ofthe science of time ect. but it is not as you see it,If ..it contradicts God, you are taking Origen's Neoplatonic mysticism, explation over Gods Word because it agrees with Einstein's theroy ???? ... be my guest ...but dont try to convince me God is wrong .. I have scripture and God to back me up ... It has been about 6000 years sense Adam then we have the Millenium 1000 years making one week (7000 years) Gods Days And on the 7th day God rested as he will do again ... Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,Wow, a thousand years was written 4 times in Revelation 20.Thousands years on 4.That means one thousand years on Earth.Edit: Thousand years is actually written six times in Revelation 20
 

Christina

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That may be so to a degree but this is a Bible study site and my Job here is to point out what scripture says and what you say calls Gods scripture wrong ... understanding Einstien is not now nor ever has been required to understand Gods Word.. This is my argument here ..not to disagree with your scientific veiw. We do NOT need nor use Einstien to disprove God Words. To that I will never agree. Peter was a Jew teaching God Word to us he used the Hebrew greek words/ customs he understood to do that ....Einstien wasnt around. We are to understand Peters Words from Peters perspective
 

AusDisciple

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That may be so to a degree but this is a Bible study site and my Job here is to point out what scripture says and what you say calls Gods scripture wrong ... understanding Einstien is not now nor ever has been required to understand Gods Word.. This is my argument here ..not to disagree with your scientific veiw. We do need nor use Einstien to disprove God Words. To that I will never agree. Peter was a Jew teaching God Word to us he used the Hebrew greek words/ customs he understood to do that ....Einstien wasnt around. We are to understand Peters Words from Peters perspective
I am not calling God's scripture wrong. Quite the contrary... and yes, this is a Bible study site and that is what I am doing. Studying the Bible.I'm sorry if you cannot see the layers of Peter's meaning in this scripture but I will pray (actually, I have been praying) that God will show either that this scripture IS multi layered like the entire Bible is, or you are completely correct and what you interpret is the bottom line and what God has shown me is wrong.Yes, I am passionate about scriptures and even more so when God demonstrates clearly to me (and many others) how a point of view on His word can be interpreted.Please understand that by accepting the perspective I have been shown does NOT mean abandoning what you already understand. Quite the contrary. God is showing us both something that can expand our understanding of Him in a complimentary way.I can see that clearly and I hope you will be able to as well. Obviously I am not trying to disprove scripture. I am a faithful Christian like you are and it is my desire that God's will be done through this discussion in order to glorify Him and not us.:grouphug:
 

Christina

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Where is this layer may I ask I understand Gods layers just fine where is this layer you cant just say that with no proof show me Gods word doesnt just have layers only one gets... if there are layers it agrees with other scripture ... So please show me this layer
 

AusDisciple

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Luke 8:16-18 says what I am trying to say....16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.