Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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Willie T

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Nice theory. Lets see if it holds up to what Scripture says.

There are several billion Christians in this world who believe in Jesus. Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 timothy 3:15). Which one of the billions of Christians on this earth is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Which one of the billions of Christians has the authority to fulfill the authoritive Church that decides who should be treated as a pagan or tax collector is of spoken of in Matthew 18:17?

Once you give me a logical answer to both of those questions, which are based on your theory, I will revert back to Protestantism.
Oh, PLEASE don't. I think you are right where you belong. LOL
 

Marymog

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Oh, PLEASE don't. I think you are right where you belong. LOL
Once again.....no rebuttal......only trolling.

Would you care to at least explain to me how each individual Christian is "the church" but the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and has the final authority on who is to be treated as a pagan/tax collector?

Or is your intent to just troll??

Curious Mary
 

justbyfaith

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Nice theory. Lets see if it holds up to what Scripture says.

There are several billion Christians in this world who believe in Jesus. Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 timothy 3:15). Which one of the billions of Christians on this earth is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Which one of the billions of Christians has the authority to fulfill the authoritive Church that decides who should be treated as a pagan or tax collector is of spoken of in Matthew 18:17?

Once you give me a logical answer to both of those questions, which are based on your theory, I will revert back to Protestantism.

Why does it have to be one of them?

Every believer in Christ, as a corporate body, is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In context, the verse in question is referring to the body of Christ as it meets inside a building.

btw, thanks for converting!
 

marksman

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted in that thread by a participant, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

I guess the way to answer this question is to look at what the bible says. On the day that the church was birthed and it welcomed its first members what was the message given to them in answer to their question men and brethren what shall we do? Here is the reply...

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

A few pointers for you. The question asked was one that was seeking information about their response to the information they were given. In other words "how do we follow this messiah?" The answer "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus (note, not the trinity).

In context, there were many religions already in operation. For many of them, you could say you followed that religion but until you were baptized by immersion (there was no such thing as sprinkling), you were not considered a genuine member of it.

So, in being told to repent and be baptized what they were being told was that if they wanted to be a genuine member of this new sect, which is what it was, they had to show it by being baptized by immersion.

So, you could join, not be baptized but not be considered a genuine member of it. Your serious intentions were evident by being baptized by immersion.

The other thing to note is that nowhere has this instruction been rescinded in scripture and the following verse in Acts 2 indicated that it was not only for those present but anyone wherever they were who joined themselves to be a genuine member needed to be baptized.

Note that originally the church was known as "The Way" and was looked upon as a sect of Judaism. It did not become a church as we know it until Antioch when the people involved were called Christians and even then that was a name thought up by unbelievers as a mark of derision.

So is baptism necessary for salvation? my answer is "If you want to be taken seriously, then yes it is. If you don't want to be taken seriously, then no it is not."

As an aside, I was living in England when the charismatic renewal hit the country in the 60s. One of the denominations that were impacted by it was the Anglican Church. You could go to an Anglican service and think you were in a pentecostal church. Many Anglican churches at this time installed baptismal equipment so they could baptize believers by immersion. They realized the whole nine yards required baptism by immersion.
 

Enoch111

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So is baptism necessary for salvation? my answer is "If you want to be taken seriously, then yes it is. If you don't want to be taken seriously, then no it is not."
That still begs the question as to whether -- in the eyes of God and Christ -- baptism is necessary for salvation (particularly as it pertains to justification and regeneration).
 

Enoch111

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Once you give me a logical answer to both of those questions, which are based on your theory, I will revert back to Protestantism.
Why would anyone firstly revert to Catholicism, and then revert back to Protestantism?

Every child of God is a part of the Church (the Body of Christ). But when Paul was speaking of the *church* as the pillar and ground of truth, he was referring to each local assembly (also calling it *the house of God*).

While the apostles were on earth, there was not one local church which was the final authority for all the churches (despite Acts 15, which was a very special case). And as we can see from Paul's epistle to the Romans: (1) Peter was definitely not *the bishop* of Rome, or even an elder in Rome, and (3) the church at Rome was not elevated above all the other churches. Those were all corruptions which took place later on, and even to this day the Eastern Orthodox churches refuse to acknowledge the Pope as Supreme Pontiff.
 

Nondenom40

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Why would anyone firstly revert to Catholicism, and then revert back to Protestantism?

Every child of God is a part of the Church (the Body of Christ). But when Paul was speaking of the *church* as the pillar and ground of truth, he was referring to each local assembly (also calling it *the house of God*).

While the apostles were on earth, there was not one local church which was the final authority for all the churches (despite Acts 15, which was a very special case). And as we can see from Paul's epistle to the Romans: (1) Peter was definitely not *the bishop* of Rome, or even an elder in Rome, and (3) the church at Rome was not elevated above all the other churches. Those were all corruptions which took place later on, and even to this day the Eastern Orthodox churches refuse to acknowledge the Pope as Supreme Pontiff.
On some other boards i post on catholics frequently say things like; 'if i left the catholic church, what church should i join?' Or, 'why should i leave the catholic church and become a protestant?' Both questions are wrong. They look at the wrong thing. Its Jesus, not 'what church should i join?' When i was born again i wasn't looking for a church, but forgiveness, salvation, Jesus. What church to go to comes later. Catholics are conditioned to think 'church' first and not Jesus first.
 
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Philip James

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Catholics are conditioned to think 'church' first and not Jesus first.

Hello nondenom,

This is mistaken.
Catholics believe that you cannot separate Jesus from His church. The two are forever united as one.

So then, to be united with Christ is to be united with His Church.

It is through baptism into Christ that one becomes a member of this community.

It is in baptism that we receive our wedding garment and the right to participate in the wedding feast, the Eucharist.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 

Steve Owen

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Nice theory. Lets see if it holds up to what Scripture says.

There are several billion Christians in this world who believe in Jesus. Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 timothy 3:15). Which one of the billions of Christians on this earth is the pillar and foundation of truth?
Not the 'pope,' that's for sure. He seems to have denied the resurrection of Christ.
https://www.julesgomes.com/single-p...mail&cid=88833890-c1b6-43a1-af9f-eb2c1e41c1ae
Which one of the billions of Christians has the authority to fulfill the authoritive Church that decides who should be treated as a pagan or tax collector is of spoken of in Matthew 18:17?

Once you give me a logical answer to both of those questions, which are based on your theory, I will revert back to Protestantism.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the One to whom all authority has been given in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). To no one else.
Of the Church — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
 

Nondenom40

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Hello nondenom,

This is mistaken.
Catholics believe that you cannot separate Jesus from His church. The two are forever united as one.

So then, to be united with Christ is to be united with His Church.
Not true on a couple of levels. One, the rcc teaches those with invincible ignorance don't need either; ccc 1260. Also once we are born again that is when we become part of the ekklesia.

It is through baptism into Christ that one becomes a member of this community.
Its through faith that we are born again, not water baptism.

It is in baptism that we receive our wedding garment and the right to participate in the wedding feast, the Eucharist.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
The marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven, not earth. Nor is it your eucharist..
 

Philip James

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The marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven, not earth. Nor is it your eucharist..

The eternal feast will always be, of course.
In fulfilling Malachi 1:11 we participate in that eternal feast in union with all our brethren that have come before us, and those who will come after us, in union with all the hosts of heaven,
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
Through Jesus Christ,
With Jesus Christ,
And in Jesus Christ,

Offering our thanksgiving and praise, and yes our very selves to our Almighty Father.
Forever and ever!

Peace!
 

charity

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'Great Advocate, Almighty Friend,
On Thee alone our hopes depend;
Our cause can never, never fail,
For Thou dost plead, and must prevail.

In every dark distressing hour,
When sin and Satan join their power:
Let this blest truth repel each dart,
That Thou dost bear us on Thine heart.'

May His Name be glorified.
 
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charity

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'Being justified by faith,
We have peace with God
Through our Lord Jesus Christ;
By Whom we have access also
Into this grace wherein we stand,,
And rejoice in hope of the glory of God'
(Rom.5:1-2)

Praise His Holy Name!
 

farouk

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'Being justified by faith,
We have peace with God
Through our Lord Jesus Christ;
By Whom we have access also
Into this grace wherein we stand,,
And rejoice in hope of the glory of God'
(Rom.5:1-2)

Praise His Holy Name!
charity: What a pivotal passage in an itself pivotal Epistle about the central doctrine of justification by faith! :)
 
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farouk

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'Great Advocate, Almighty Friend,
On Thee alone our hopes depend;
Our cause can never, never fail,
For Thou dost plead, and must prevail.

In every dark distressing hour,
When sin and Satan join their power:
Let this blest truth repel each dart,
That Thou dost bear us on Thine heart.'

May His Name be glorified.
I'm trying to remember who wrote that...? :)
 
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Getitright

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted in that thread by a participant, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21


Mark 16:16 ends any debate before it starts. Jesus uses a grammatical argument that cannot be gotten around no matter how one tries. In that verse "Believes" and "is baptized" are in the present tense. Shall be saved is future tense. Therefore, "believes" and "is baptized" must precede shall be saved. People will scream and cry but there is no way around the grammar here. It simply can't be done. However, if this wasn't enough the witness of the early church provides more.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Not true on a couple of levels. One, the rcc teaches those with invincible ignorance don't need either; ccc 1260. Also once we are born again that is when we become part of the ekklesia.
This is absolutely false.

Christ equated His very SELF with His Church . . .
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church? (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing). Jesus chose to equate the Church with Himself.

Paul goes on to call the Church , the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
It's not Christ OR His Church as YOU erroneously claim. They are INDIVISIBLE.
 
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