Was Noah “saved by grace through faith”?

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Ezra

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When one is justified he is sanctified in that he is set apart by God for His purpose. But he then has a walk of salvation which is his sanctification.

If justified and sanctified are the same thing then why ever use a different term? They are not the same thing. Because the believer is justified then he is sanctified to be used of God. That sanctification involves his growth as a believer. It involves his struggles, his victories, all based on his justification, but it is called his sanctification.

I never said one does not experience sanctification without faith.

(Acts 2:38) is the water baptism of the Gospel of the Kingdom preached to Israel. (Matt. 3:2,6) (4:17) And Peter was addressing 'Israel'. (Acts 2:22) This is not the water baptism of the Church.

In (Acts 22:16) note it did not say 'believe'. Why? Because belief is assumed. "calling on the name of the Lord". Paul was already a believer. (Acts 22:8) "...Who art thou Lord?...) Paul didn't know Who He was but He was Lord Whoever He was. Then he is baptized. Water Baptism pictures what already has taken place. It does not initiate justification. (1 Peter 3:20-21)

Concerning the passage you love, (Acts 26:18), there is nothing there of 'water baptism'. But there is of his faith. (Acts:15) "...Who art thou Lord?"

Stranger
amen
 

CNKW3

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No, I don't laugh at God. I know better than to do this!
but you did.

You disparage everyone posting here. So, are you the only one who gets it??
Not everyone. I know of one other poster that “gets it”. But thats all I have seen on this entire board.

I'm fully aware of all of the scriptures you alluded to, and I know that not all Bible passages that deal with how to be saved say that we must be baptized in water in order to be saved.
And not all say we must repent, but we do. They don’t all say we must believe, but we do.
So, what’s your point?

Mere water does not wash away our sins. Blood is required. The blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

1 John 1:7--But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
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That’s right! But at what point does the blood wash away our sins? At what point does the individual come in contact with the blood? The Bible says....at the point that our sins are washed away! That’s at the point of baptism. You can’t be covered by the blood and still be in your sins.
 

Prayer Warrior

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but you did.


Not everyone. I know of one other poster that “gets it”. But thats all I have seen on this entire board.


And not all say we must repent, but we do. They don’t all say we must believe, but we do.
So, what’s your point?


That’s right! But at what point does the blood wash away our sins? At what point does the individual come in contact with the blood? The Bible says....at the point that our sins are washed away! That’s at the point of baptism. You can’t be covered by the blood and still be in your sins.
Read the verse again--"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin," not the water. We are cleansed when we first believe.

1 John 1:7--But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Only one other person gets it like you do, eh? How sad. :(
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DoveSpirit05

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So, was Noah saved when he started building the boat, or when he finished building the boat?

Stranger

I guess when he finished it, like Christianity, real salvation comes when we see it through right to the end!!
 

CNKW3

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This is quite the interesting list. How can we be justified by faith AND justified by works??

Here are some verses that must be considered:

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

So, we are justified by faith, period. Our works show whether we actually have faith. IOW, if we have faith, then our works showing this will follow. The faith comes first and is what justifies us. Otherwise, Paul and the other apostles would have made sure that they said we are justified by faith and works every time. But they did not.
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You are destroying the Bible by what you are doing here. If this is your way of exegesis it is criminal. You cannot take the passages you like to the exclusion of others. Not a one of the above passages says justified by “faith alone” and you know that! But you don’t care! That’s what makes it criminal.
The Bible clearly says....
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
It clearly says we are NOT justified by “faith alone”. You know it but you don’t care. That’s criminal, and there’s no way around it.

Let’s let the Bible tell us HOW we are justified by faith....
Galatians 3:24-27 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
He’s not through. He continues the thought to explain what he means by “justified by faith”.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The faith he is talking about right here is NOT our belief in Christ or “faith alone”. He is talking about “the faith” or the gospel. The system of faith that tells us how to become a child of God. The one faith of Eph 4. And he’s not through...

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (HOW) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The word “for” here is the word gar which means because. This is all one continuous thought. He is explaining HOW one becomes a “child of God” by faith and it is through BAPTISM. why? Because that is when our sins are washed away and we are considered just or justified. You cannot be considered “justified” while still in your sins.
 

Prayer Warrior

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You are destroying the Bible by what you are doing here. If this is your way of exegesis it is criminal. You cannot take the passages you like to the exclusion of others. Not a one of the above passages says justified by “faith alone” and you know that! But you don’t care! That’s what makes it criminal.
The Bible clearly says....
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
It clearly says we are NOT justified by “faith alone”. You know it but you don’t care. That’s criminal, and there’s no way around it.

Let’s let the Bible tell us HOW we are justified by faith....
Galatians 3:24-27 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
He’s not through. He continues the thought to explain what he means by “justified by faith”.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The faith he is talking about right here is NOT our belief in Christ or “faith alone”. He is talking about “the faith” or the gospel. The system of faith that tells us how to become a child of God. The one faith of Eph 4. And he’s not through...

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (HOW) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The word “for” here is the word gar which means because. This is all one continuous thought. He is explaining HOW one becomes a “child of God” by faith and it is through BAPTISM. why? Because that is when our sins are washed away and we are considered just or justified. You cannot be considered “justified” while still in your sins.

Wow, I didn't know that a mere human has the power to "destroy the Bible!" I do consider the whole counsel of God, which means the whole Bible. I think that you're the one who is not doing this in your "exegesis." So.....we are at an impasse. Typical Christians, eh?

Here is one thing I can do and know that I have it right. I pray that God will bless you richly!
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CNKW3

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The Saviour is there because God said He is there. (Gal. 3:16) "...He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." What did he say in (Gen. 15:5)? "...So shall thy seed be"

What did he then say in (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

In (Gen. 22:18) it also says 'seed'. Which means it also speaks of Christ. Just like with (Gen. 15:5).

But, in (Gen. 15:5), Abraham is declared righteous by God. Not in (Gen. 22:18).

Pretty simple really.

Stranger
Again...the word “seed” in vs 5 was talking about children. He didn’t promise anything to Abraham in these verses other than to give him children which would expand into a great nation. That’s all! There is no “savior” there.
But....when you look years later in chapter 22 we find this promise...
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (WHY). because thou hast obeyed my voice
This is a blessing or a promise of a savior. Someone through whom the world or all nations would be blessed.
 

CNKW3

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When one is justified he is sanctified in that he is set apart by God for His purpose. But he then has a walk of salvation which is his sanctification.
Why do you make so many statements without using scripture for support? You just throw it out there as if it is truth.

If justified and sanctified are the same thing then why ever use a different term? They are not the same thing.
where did I ever say they were the same thing. I actually broke down how they are different. They just happen at the same time.

Because the believer is justified then he is sanctified to be used of God. That sanctification involves his growth as a believer. It involves his struggles, his victories, all based on his justification, but it is called his sanctification.
Here’s what the Bible says...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Here are all three. Was Paul lying when he told these people they had been “sanctified“? And this happened at the same time they were washed (baptism) and justified (sins removed). he uses past tense. He said....and such WERE some of you BUT.....ye are sanctified “in the name of the lord”. This happens at baptism. AFTER they are washed.

I never said one does not experience sanctification without faith.

(Acts 2:38) is the water baptism of the Gospel of the Kingdom preached to Israel. (Matt. 3:2,6) (4:17) And Peter was addressing 'Israel'. (Acts 2:22) This is not the water baptism of the Church.
Now you are wayyyy off the reservation. Why would you go back to Matt 3 and 4 when Jesus just gave the apostles the great commission? He just told them to preach THE GOSPEL and there is only ONE, Eph 4, to Every creature (not just Israel) he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. We know this is water baptism because man is commanded to administer it. Mt 28:18-20. You also have been watching wayyyy too much les Feldick? That man is one of the worst Bible teachers I’ve ever seen and he’s all over the TV.
In (Acts 22:16) note it did not say 'believe'. Why? Because belief is assumed. "calling on the name of the Lord". Paul was already a believer. (Acts 22:8) "...Who art thou Lord?...) Paul didn't know Who He was but He was Lord Whoever He was. Then he is baptized. Water Baptism pictures what already has taken place. It does not initiate justification. (1 Peter 3:20-21)

Concerning the passage you love, (Acts 26:18), there is nothing there of 'water baptism'. But there is of his faith. (Acts:15) "...Who art thou Lord?"

Stranger
did acts 22:16 say anything about repentance either? Did the passage say ANYTHING about his actions being a “picture of what had already took place”? Where is that in the text? What the text actually says (and I know you don’t care about these details) was that Saul was commanded to be baptized (why) to WASH AWAY his sins.
Details? Who needs them, right? I know you and the rest on here are allergic to details. You would rather just make stuff up as you go.
 

Stranger

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Again...the word “seed” in vs 5 was talking about children. He didn’t promise anything to Abraham in these verses other than to give him children which would expand into a great nation. That’s all! There is no “savior” there.
But....when you look years later in chapter 22 we find this promise...
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (WHY). because thou hast obeyed my voice
This is a blessing or a promise of a savior. Someone through whom the world or all nations would be blessed.

How Abraham understood it is immaterial. That Christ is there is clear from (Gal. 3:16). The seed promise is the same whether in (Gen. 15) or (Gen. 22). The point being, God used a point in time of Abraham's faith, when he could do nothing but believe. And, the Seed promise always had to do with Christ.

You like (Gen. 22:18) when it says "because thou hast obeyed my voice". That way Abraham would earn his righteous standing before God. But guess what? There is no imputation declared there as in (Gen. 15:6). Instead of God saying, "because thou hast obeyed my voice", He says, "...I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it." (15:7) Abraham's righteousness cannot stand before God. Only the imputed righteousness of God will suffice. Obtained only by faith, not by merit. (Rom. 4:2-3)

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Here’s what the Bible says...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Here are all three. Was Paul lying when he told these people they had been “sanctified“? And this happened at the same time they were washed (baptism) and justified (sins removed). he uses past tense. He said....and such WERE some of you BUT.....ye are sanctified “in the name of the lord”. This happens at baptism. AFTER they are washed.


Now you are wayyyy off the reservation. Why would you go back to Matt 3 and 4 when Jesus just gave the apostles the great commission? He just told them to preach THE GOSPEL and there is only ONE, Eph 4, to Every creature (not just Israel) he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. We know this is water baptism because man is commanded to administer it. Mt 28:18-20. You also have been watching wayyyy too much les Feldick? That man is one of the worst Bible teachers I’ve ever seen and he’s all over the TV.
did acts 22:16 say anything about repentance either? Did the passage say ANYTHING about his actions being a “picture of what had already took place”? Where is that in the text? What the text actually says (and I know you don’t care about these details) was that Saul was commanded to be baptized (why) to WASH AWAY his sins.
Details? Who needs them, right? I know you and the rest on here are allergic to details. You would rather just make stuff up as you go.

I already showed you where being washed does not pertain to baptism. See post #(191)and (Titus 3:5) (Eph. 5:26). All of which is perfectly illustrated in (John 13:6-10). Which you ignore.

Just because several acts of salvation are described in one sentence as being accomplished in the name of Christ and by the Spirit of God, does not mean they are identical in the time accomplished. Note the list of the various aspects of salvation. (Rom. 8:29-30) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Are you glorified at this time? No. But as far as God is concerned, you are. It will occur because God has already accomplished it. That doesn't mean it has occurred in our experience yet. Just as we have yet a walk of salvation, our sanctification, to experience here. Of which water baptism is part of.

(Matt. 3:2,6) and (Matt. 4:17) were given you to show that (Acts 2:38) looks back to the Gospel of the Kingdom and the baptism associated with it. (Matt. 28:19-20) is not that. Note, as I showed before, that Peter specifically is speaking to Israel. (Acts 2:14) "...Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem...." (Acts 2:22) "Ye men of Israel...." Peter was addressing the unbelieving Jews. (Acts 2:13,15) They crucified their Christ. (2:36) This caused them to regret and they said 'what shall we do?' (2:37) They were required to 'repent and be baptized'. (2:38) Not only had they not believed and repented at the Gospel of the Kingdom, but they also have now killed their Messiah. To them especially is this repentance and baptism required for the rejection of the Kingdom and the killing of their King. Note in (Matt. 28:19-20), nothing is said of repentance as part of the message. It involves repentance, but it is not the message. Now, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, if the 'men of Israel' do this, they will receive remission of sins, and the Holy Spirit.

There is more than one gospel. More than one baptism. (Eph. 4:4) speaks only to the Body of Christ. Thus the baptism spoken of speaks to the baptism of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)

Concerning (Acts 22:16) Paul was already repentant and had submitted to faith in Christ. (Acts 22:10) "What shall I do Lord?" He had already been filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:17-18) It was then that he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) The water baptism of Paul, of having his sins washed away is the same as our baptism. It represents that which has already taken place. It itself doesn't wash them away.

Stranger
 

farouk

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Read the verse again--"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin," not the water. We are cleansed when we first believe.

1 John 1:7--But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Only one other person gets it like you do, eh? How sad. :(
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Hebrews 9.14 would bear out also what you say.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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If one obeys God how is he an unprofitable servant? If one obeys God, why does he need to repent?

Because one's obedience will not be perfect, therefore one is an" unprofitable servant" and in need of grace. (Luke 17:10)

Stranger said:
Yes you did, and yes you do. You just said 'due to his obedience he found grace in the eyes of God'. Noah deserved it. He earned it.

I have never said Noah earned/deserved God's grace. Even though Noah obeyed God, his obedience was not perfect leaving him standing in need of God's grace. God's grace is a CONDITIONAL free gift, those that CONDITIONALLY obey are the ones who receive this free gift. Those that repent when when their obedience is not perfect remain in God's grace. Those who do NOT CONTINUE to obey and repent will have received God grace in vain, 2 Corinthians 6:1.

Stranger said:
Yet God said He saves the ungodly. (Rom. 4:5) You present a person who is to be saved as 'godly'. Yet God is going for the 'ungodly'. How strange God is compared to man.

Exodus 23:7 ".... for I will not justify the wicked." God does not justify the ungodly UNconditionally. The ungodly obeys then God will justify them. There is not a single example in the Bible of God justifying a disobedient, rebellious reprobate. In the context of Romans 4 David and Abraham were ungodly men in that both sinned, neither were perfectly sinless. Yet they were justified for both had an obedient faith. No one is UNconditionally justified and remains UNconditionally justified regardless of how they live.

Stranger said:
(Rom. 6) pertains to our sanctification. After we are saved. We wrestle with many sins in our lives in this process of sanctification. Our 'obedience' does not affect the imputed righteousness by which God sees us in.

Romans 6:16 deals with the only two options men have 1) condemnation 2) salvation. The disobedient are serving "sin unto death" (spiritual death). Even though the Christian is saved by grace, that does not give the Christian the right to live disobediently to Christ's NT law. Because again, living in disobedience is serving sin unto death for disobedience certainly is not serving obedience unto righteousness. There is no such thing as serving disobedience unto righteousness.

Stranger said:
Again, you pervert grace and make it nothing but law. I have already said that Noah was saved before he built the ark. (Gen. 6:8, 7:1) You can 'what if' all you want. It doesn't change it. But yes, Noah was already saved. Had he not built the ark, perhaps the flood would not have occurred. I mean, if you want to 'what if'. (Heb. 11:7)

Stranger

Again, "grace only" does not save, "grace only" will not save the disobedient, law breaking, rebellious reprobate for he is serving "sin unto death". Titus 2:11-12 grace teaches us "... that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;". Grace itself teaches that one is to live obediently, live righteously serving "obedience unto righteousness" per Romans 6:16. Grace does not teach one can live ungodly, live in disobedience to Christ's NT and still be saved anyway. No reason nor sense for grace to teach one to live godly if God is going to UNconditionally save the impenitent, ungodly man anyway.

Lastly, I NEVER said Noah was lost prior to building the boat. He was in a saved relationship with God (in God's grace) prior to building the boat.

What I have said, and continue to say, is IF Noah was to remain saved, remain in God's grace then he had to be obedient in building the boat. Had he not obediently built the boat he would have fallen from God's grace, he would have turned from serving "obedience unto righteousness" to serving "sin unto death" and would have been lost in the flood with the rest of those wicked people. There is no such thing as 'once unconditionally saved, always unconditionally saved'.
 
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Stranger

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Because one's obedience will not be perfect, therefore one is an" unprofitable servant" and in need of grace. (Luke 17:10)



I have never said Noah earned/deserved God's grace. Even though Noah obeyed God, his obedience was not perfect leaving him standing in need of God's grace. God's grace is a CONDITIONAL free gift, those that CONDITIONALLY obey are the ones who receive this free gift. Those that repent when when their obedience is not perfect remain in God's grace. Those who do NOT CONTINUE to obey and repent will have received God grace in vain, 2 Corinthians 6:1.



Exodus 23:7 ".... for I will not justify the wicked." God does not justify the ungodly UNconditionally. The ungodly obeys then God will justify them. There is not a single example in the Bible of God justifying a disobedient, rebellious reprobate. In the context of Romans 4 David and Abraham were ungodly men in that both sinned, neither were perfectly sinless. Yet they were justified for both had an obedient faith. No one is UNconditionally justified and remains UNconditionally justified regardless of how they live.



Romans 6:16 deals with the only two options men have 1) condemnation 2) salvation. The disobedient are serving "sin unto death" (spiritual death). Even though the Christian is saved by grace, that does not give the Christian the right to live disobediently to Christ's NT law. Because again, living in disobedience is serving sin unto death for disobedience certainly is not serving obedience unto righteousness. There is no such thing as serving disobedience unto righteousness.



Again, "grace only" does not save, "grace only" will not save the disobedient, law breaking, rebellious reprobate for he is serving "sin unto death". Titus 2:11-12 grace teaches us "... that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;". Grace itself teaches that one is to live obediently, live righteously serving "obedience unto righteousness" per Romans 6:16. Grace does not teach one can live ungodly, live in disobedience to Christ's NT and still be saved anyway. No reason nor sense for grace to teach one to live godly if God is going to UNconditionally save the impenitent, ungodly man anyway.

Lastly, I NEVER said Noah was lost prior to building the boat. He was in a saved relationship with God (in God's grace) prior to building the boat.

What I have said, and continue to say, is IF Noah was to remain saved, remain in God's grace then he had to be obedient in building the boat. Had he not obediently built the boat he would have fallen from God's grace, he would have turned from serving "obedience unto righteousness" to serving "sin unto death" and would have been lost in the flood with the rest of those wicked people. There is no such thing as 'once unconditionally saved, always unconditionally saved'.

That is one of the most stupid statements I have ever heard. You say, "Because ones obedience will not be perfect, therefore one is an unprofitable servant and in need of grace." What a severity of law. I require your obedience. But, your obedience is not enough because I don't even like that.

And, don't think (Luke 17:10) supports your idiotic statement. It does not. My point is that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he needed grace. Because he didn't measure up. He found grace before he began building the Ark. (Gen. 6:8, 7:1) Your point is that Noah found grace because he was obedient. If you're obedient, (Luke 17:10) says you did what was expected. Thus nothing more need be expected. No grace needed.

If your obedient to God, then grace is not necessary. If grace is 'conditional' then it is not free. If Noah obeyed God and built the Ark, why is his obedience not perfect? Did he build the Ark or not? You mix law and grace so much you can't tell the difference.

(Romans 4:4-5) says God justifies the ungodly. And, He does it by faith only. No conditions. Faith is not law. Faith is all that is required. But you don't believe that. You want their faith and then they must adhere to the law. That is not grace. That is law. Grace with conditions. What an oxymoronic statement that is.

Concerning (Rom. 6:16): You are mistaken. Condemnation is not the issue here. Who you serve and the results of your slavery is. Recognize Paul is speaking to believers here. Our old man is dead that the body of sin might be destroyed. That we should not serve sin. (6:6) It says 'might be destroyed' because that is a process. It doesn't say 'might be made to obey'. The body of sin never obeys. At times the believer yields his members to sin. At times he yields himself to God. To whomever he yields, slavery is the result.

Note that in (Rom. 6:13) in yielding to unrighteousness, the believer yields his members only. But he doesn't yield 'himself'. For 'himself' belongs to God. So that the opposite admonishment is for the believer to yield himself to God, and then his members as instruments of righteousness. It is a vicious fight within the believer that the body of sin might be destroyed. Paul experienced it. (Rom. 7:15). Of course most believers today will deny it. They are too good. Too deserving. Too obedient.

If Noah had to build the boat to remain saved, then he was never saved by grace in the first place. That is not grace. That is law.

Stranger
 

Ernest T. Bass

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That is one of the most stupid statements I have ever heard. You say, "Because ones obedience will not be perfect, therefore one is an unprofitable servant and in need of grace." What a severity of law. I require your obedience. But, your obedience is not enough because I don't even like that.

It is simple to understand for those that have a correct understanding of the Bible:
---God requires one to be without sin, blameless and without spot (2 Peter 3:14) in order for one to be saved.
---Since man's obedience will not be perfect ("all have sinned" Romans 5:12) then man will not be sinless and without spot and blame.
---Therefore man cannot save himself by being sinless through perfect obedience therefore man is need of grace.
---Those who strive (Luke 13:24) to be obedient to God and repent for those times when they are not perfectly obedient are the ones who receive grace.

God has NEVER required man to be perfect and flawless to be save but God has required an obedient faith to be saved. David nor Abraham were perfectly sinless, so how would they be saved? By an obedient faith which includes repentance of sins. So simple to understand. I understand this does not fit Luther's heresy of faith only, but that is not my problem.

Luke 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

It is man's duty to obey God (also Ecclesiastes 12:13). Those that do not obey God are derelict in doing what is their duty. So why after one has 'done all those things that are commanded you" still be unprofitable? Because he will not be perfect in doing all those things commanded him and therefore in need of grace.

Stranger said:
And, don't think (Luke 17:10) supports your idiotic statement. It does not. My point is that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he needed grace. Because he didn't measure up. He found grace before he began building the Ark. (Gen. 6:8, 7:1) Your point is that Noah found grace because he was obedient. If you're obedient, (Luke 17:10) says you did what was expected. Thus nothing more need be expected. No grace needed.

Why did Noah need God's grace? Because Noah, like all other men, sinned (Romans 3:23) and therefore was not perfect. not spotless, not blameless making him in need of grace. Those men who do obey God are the ones who receive grace, mercy and forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Why was John's parents "blameless" before the Lord? Because they were perfectly and flawlessly sinless? No! Because they were righteous and obeyed God's commands and ordinances. Even though they obeyed God's commands they were not perfect in their obedience. Their obedience included repentance and offering appropriate OT sacrifices for their sins and God forgave them leaving them blameless before God.

Stranger said:
If your obedient to God, then grace is not necessary. If grace is 'conditional' then it is not free. If Noah obeyed God and built the Ark, why is his obedience not perfect? Did he build the Ark or not? You mix law and grace so much you can't tell the difference.

But whose obedience will be perfectly sinless? Other than Christ, NO ONE. Leaving man in need of grace. Man not being perfectly sinless separates man from God where sin leaves a gap between God and man. Grace is needed to bridge that gap. Those who strive to obey God's will will find that bridge to God. Those that do not strive to obey God will not find that bridge

Stanger said:
(Romans 4:4-5) says God justifies the ungodly. And, He does it by faith only. No conditions. Faith is not law. Faith is all that is required. But you don't believe that. You want their faith and then they must adhere to the law. That is not grace. That is law. Grace with conditions. What an oxymoronic statement that is.

Romans 4:4-5 does not say God justifies the ungodly unconditionally nor does Romans 4:5 contradict Exodus 23:7 that says God will not justify wicked/ungodly. Further proof of this is that you cannot produce one single example from the Bible of God unconditionally justifying an impenitent, disobedient, rebellious reprobate. For justification is CONDITONAL upon one first having an obedient faith:

Romans 5:1--------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18------obey from the heart>>>>>>>>>justified/free from sin
James 2:24--------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies


Since there is just one way to be justified, no alternatives, then NT faith must be an obedient work in obeying God's will.

Faith only does not justify (James 2:24) for it is dead for it lacks obedient to the will of God.

Stranger said:
Concerning (Rom. 6:16): You are mistaken. Condemnation is not the issue here. Who you serve and the results of your slavery is. Recognize Paul is speaking to believers here. Our old man is dead that the body of sin might be destroyed. That we should not serve sin. (6:6) It says 'might be destroyed' because that is a process. It doesn't say 'might be made to obey'. The body of sin never obeys. At times the believer yields his members to sin. At times he yields himself to God. To whomever he yields, slavery is the result.

Note that in (Rom. 6:13) in yielding to unrighteousness, the believer yields his members only. But he doesn't yield 'himself'. For 'himself' belongs to God. So that the opposite admonishment is for the believer to yield himself to God, and then his members as instruments of righteousness. It is a vicious fight within the believer that the body of sin might be destroyed. Paul experienced it. (Rom. 7:15). Of course most believers today will deny it. They are too good. Too deserving. Too obedient.


Romans 6:16 exposes Luther's error of faith only. Paul clearly shows that we each are serving either on of two masters, either:
1) "sin unto death" which is condemnation
or
2) "obedience unto righteousness" which is salvation

What is "sin unto death" if it is not eternal condemnation? The problem some have with this verse is simple to see......those who have allowed themselves to follow the error of Luther's faith only cannot, will not say which master they serve for they are put between a hard place and a rock.. Of course they will not say they are serving sin unto death. Yet at the same time, Luther's faith only prevents them from saying they serve "obedience unto righteousness". They try and find ways to get around this tough verse for them as you are trying to do yourself.

Those in Rome were serving "obedience unto righteousness" for we are told they had "obeyed from the heart" then were freed from sin/justified, (Romans 6:17-18).

Again, note the order of events as Paul puts them:
---were "servants of sin" serving sin unto death
---but they "obeyed from the heart" turned to serve obedience unto righteousness
---then they were freed from sin

Paul puts obedience BEFORE justification as it is in v16 obedience UNTO righteousness as obedience lead them to being freed from sin/justified. Faith onlyist try and conform this passage in Rom 6 to say 'obedience BECAUSE one is already righteous' or 'obedience BECAUSE one already is justified'. Faith only says the exact opposite of what Paul said.

Stranger said:
If Noah had to build the boat to remain saved, then he was never saved by grace in the first place. That is not grace. That is law.

Stranger

Your statment above is not supported by the text.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

--The part in red is God's grace. God did not owe it to Noah to save his house.
--The part in blue is the condition God required of Naoh to recieve the grace in red.

No blue part then there would have been no red part to happen. Had Noah rebelled and disobeyed in not building the ark then he would not have received grace in the form of the saving of his house. Hence obedience to God's command or law (or whatever you care to call it) to build the ark was necessary to receive the grace. It is obvious that obedience and grace go hand in hand and Luther could not have been more wrong with his faith only philosophy.
 

CNKW3

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Read the verse again--"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin," not the water. We are cleansed when we first believe.

1 John 1:7--But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
See, this is a perfect example. You don’t get it just like everybody else on here. John is writing to Christians. John is writing to people who have already obeyed the gospel, been baptized, and had their sins washed away. This is NOT telling an alien sinner how to become a child of God. He is telling them how they can stay in contact with the blood. And it’s only when they “walk in the light”. And NOWHERE does this passage say you are covered by the blood “when you first believe”. You just made that up. To the contrary, the passage states that when a child of God sins they must confess in order to be forgiven. Yes. It is true. YOU DONT GET IT.
Only one other person gets it like you do, eh? How sad. :(
.
Yes it is truly sad what 90% of the Christian world does with the Bible.
 

CNKW3

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Wow, I didn't know that a mere human has the power to "destroy the Bible!" I do consider the whole counsel of God, which means the whole Bible. I think that you're the one who is not doing this in your "exegesis." So.....we are at an impasse. Typical Christians, eh?

Here is one thing I can do and know that I have it right. I pray that God will bless you richly!
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Through your teaching I can know that your prayer is not going to help me.
 

CNKW3

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How Abraham understood it is immaterial. That Christ is there is clear from (Gal. 3:16). The seed promise is the same whether in (Gen. 15) or (Gen. 22). The point being, God used a point in time of Abraham's faith, when he could do nothing but believe. And, the Seed promise always had to do with Christ.
You said this...
“Therefore, God imputed righteousness to Abraham when his faith was directed toward the coming Saviour. Therefore, we can know that when we place faith in Jesus Christ, as God has told us to do, that at that time we too have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.”
So at first you said he directed his faith toward the coming savior but now you say it doesn’t matter what he believed. Did he believe in a coming savior or not ?
This means that it doesn’t matter what we believe either. That’s the logical conclusion to the argument you just made. Since we are to have the faith of Abraham, and what he believed didn’t matter then it doesn’t matter for us either.
You like (Gen. 22:18) when it says "because thou hast obeyed my voice". That way Abraham would earn his righteous standing before God. But guess what? There is no imputation declared there as in (Gen. 15:6). Instead of God saying, "because thou hast obeyed my voice", He says, "...I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it." (15:7) Abraham's righteousness cannot stand before God. Only the imputed righteousness of God will suffice. Obtained only by faith, not by merit. (Rom. 4:2-3)

Stranger
I don’t just like gen 22 but I like how GOD sums up the life of Abraham.
Genesis‬ ‭26:4-5‬ “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
why is God going to do this? Because Abraham had “faith only” (in what he believed you say is immaterial) or is it more? Let’s see...
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
‭‭ ‭That’s God talking, not me. You CANNOT say Abraham was blessed because of “faith only”. God just spelled it out point blank.
 

CNKW3

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I already showed you where being washed does not pertain to baptism. See post #(191)and (Titus 3:5) (Eph. 5:26). All of which is perfectly illustrated in (John 13:6-10). Which you ignore.
I will deal some more later with 191. But first. How does John 13 illustrate how being washed doesn’t pertain to baptism? Peter and the boys had already been baptized in water. Therefore were “washed” and “clean”. Why? Because Jesus taught baptism for the remission of sins. Nowhere in that passage is water excluded. How does Jesus “wash” someone today? Through baptism which he commanded!

Just because several acts of salvation are described in one sentence as being accomplished in the name of Christ and by the Spirit of God, does not mean they are identical in the time accomplished. Note the list of the various aspects of salvation. (Rom. 8:29-30) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
You are correct, we must make the determination by context. In 1 cor 6, the context is clearly one of something already taking place. “Such WERE some of you BUT ye are (not will be) washed. Ye are (not will be) sanctified. Washing and the setting apart happen at the same time. Let’s look at the verse you are using.

Romans‬ ‭8:30‬ “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
‭‭‭There is clearly a progression in this passage. The foreknowing and predestinating clearly came way before the calling. Then the calling clearly came before the justifying. This same language is used in Rom 10....
Romans‬ ‭10:13-14 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

Again. There is clearly a progression here. You have to call to be saved. BUT how can you call without belief? How can you believe without hearing? These do not all happen at the same time. See the difference! The context will determine how the terms are being used, and you are not considering contextual language. Also...
In Heb 10 we see that they had been sanctified (past tense) by the blood of the covenant.
Here’s a basic bible principle....
Psalms‬ ‭4:3‬ “But know that the Lord hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him.”
‭This is the church under the new covenant. Those who have obeyed the gospel are set apart or sanctified for God and his work. This is why the lord adds to the church after baptism. (Not before). Acts 2:41,47.
So lets put it all together....
God foreknew and predestinated before the world began.
Then he called through the gospel. 2 thes 13,14.
Then after hearing the gospel call a person believes.
Then after hearing and believing they call on the name of the lord which includes baptism (acts 22:16).
Then after being washed they are sanctified and justified at the same moment in time. Their sins are washed away (justified). They are added to the body of Christ (sanctified).
It is all in perfect harmony. That is until you get ahold of it.

Are you glorified at this time? No. But as far as God is concerned, you are. It will occur because God has already accomplished it. That doesn't mean it has occurred in our experience yet. Just as we have yet a walk of salvation, our sanctification, to experience here. Of which water baptism is part of.
Heb 10:29 ties being sanctified to the blood. So how can you be cleansed by the blood but still not be sanctified? And yes we are glorified at the point of baptism. We have been made to walk in newness of life. Now, is there also a future bodily glorification? Yes. When Jesus returns.

(Matt. 3:2,6) and (Matt. 4:17) were given you to show that (Acts 2:38) looks back to the Gospel of the Kingdom and the baptism associated with it. (Matt. 28:19-20) is not that. Note, as I showed before, that Peter specifically is speaking to Israel. (Acts 2:14) "...Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem...." (Acts 2:22) "Ye men of Israel...." Peter was addressing the unbelieving Jews. (Acts 2:13,15) They crucified their Christ. (2:36) This caused them to regret and they said 'what shall we do?' (2:37) They were required to 'repent and be baptized'. (2:38) Not only had they not believed and repented at the Gospel of the Kingdom, but they also have now killed their Messiah. To them especially is this repentance and baptism required for the rejection of the Kingdom and the killing of their King. Note in (Matt. 28:19-20), nothing is said of repentance as part of the message. It involves repentance, but it is not the message. Now, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, if the 'men of Israel' do this, they will receive remission of sins, and the Holy Spirit. There is more than one gospel.
You are teaching that Peter preached a different gospel and I would guess you believe that what he preached was different then Paul. But Paul said he preached “the faith” (the gospel) that he once destroyed. Gal 1:23
And we all know it was Peters preaching he tried to destroy.
Ephesians 4 tells us there is only one “faith” which is the gospel.

More than one baptism. (Eph. 4:4) speaks only to the Body of Christ. Thus the baptism spoken of speaks to the baptism of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)
the only baptism that is commanded is water baptism so therefore the one baptism is water. It cannot be Spirit because Spirit was never commanded.

To be contd. I do t have enough time to deal with Paul. There is too much to say.