JESUS AND THE TWELVE PREACHED A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truth

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2017
1,737
1,797
113
70
AZ, Quartzsite
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are not supplying scripture to support your position except for Paul who was given revelation by Christ

Read the entire book of Matthew, That is the King from Heaven laying down the Constitution of the Kingdom, red letter, Matthews account of all that our Savior began to do and teach, any other gospel is not valid. Again One Gospel for ALL !! If you think there is one for the Jew, and one for the Gentile then God is a respecter of person's and that is contrary to Scripture!?
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would have to cite the entire Gospel of John. But John chapters 3 and 6 should suffice (for starters). And you should be the one studying them and telling us what that Gospel is.

The teachings of Jesus are not the gospel. The gospel for the dispensation in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was the gospel of the kingdom. Israel had to believe Jesus as Messiah, the Son of God (John 20:31) and prepare themselves for the kingdom to reign with Christ on earth and be a blessing to the nations (Isaiah 60:3 Revelation 5:10).

John 3:16 is not our gospel it was for Israel. God gave (sent) his only begotten son.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Israel was to believe on Jesus

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Israel was to believe in his name as Messiah, Son of God. Nothing was required as yet in regard to the cross or his propitiatory death and resurrection.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you for explaining. I now understand your conclusion or your direction even if I don't understand the 'why' of it.

What you have posted thus far does not separate it for me into two gospels or the need for two gospels. What would be the point of God doing that?

Very simply what I see is that in Eden our first natural parents lost Life for themselves and for their children... all of their children which would include the natural children of Jacob and everyone else too . In other words, every child born of woman was effectively born dead in the eyes of God, but Jesus was sent with a remedy to be available to "whosoever will":

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10

Jesus was sent to bring to men the Life lost to them in Eden. All men lost real Life at that time, which shows why there was/is a need to be born again or from above.

The details for those dwelling on planet Earth prior to the pouring out of the Life giving Holy Spirit as described in Acts 2; and for those dwelling here thereafter, may differ, but ultimately the need for Life is the same need of every person born of woman without regard to when he/she was born in the flesh. Why would two sets of good news announcements be needed? You have not explained that.

Posting scriptural references as you have done might be a good thing if you had also explained exactly how each reference necessitates or even supports your conclusion. I am not saying that you wrong, but so far I have seen no reason to seriously consider that you might be right.

God did not reveal the whole gospel to Adam and Eve but only what is found in Genesis 3:15. God revealed salvation and dealt with mankind progressively in dispensations. In every dispensation faith was required in believing God and if required to carry out commands. We have to rightly divide scripture and know what our gospel is and what is required of us. What was revealed to Paul was the full revelation of what Jesus accomplished on the cross and is not found in the four gospels or any where in scripture. Paul revealed the mystery, the gospel of grace which is not the same as the others.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is not the gospel that was/is different; but rather, it is the two folds that He must bring that are different.
The Gentiles are not one of the folds, they are the scattered sheep of Israel.
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Please read further and see what was to be believed.....John 3:18 "believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Israel had to believe Jesus as the Son of God, the Christ....that was all

My point (which you ignored) was that Jesus preached the cross.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read the entire book of Matthew, That is the King from Heaven laying down the Constitution of the Kingdom, red letter, Matthews account of all that our Savior began to do and teach, any other gospel is not valid. Again One Gospel for ALL !! If you think there is one for the Jew, and one for the Gentile then God is a respecter of person's and that is contrary to Scripture!?
Matthew is speaking of the kingdom of heaven which is the kingdom on earth promised Israel throughout scripture (Exodus 19:5-6). Christ sits on the throne of David and rules from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:2-3 Luke 1:32).
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
There is no reference that says it was ONLY revealed to Paul nor did I say it
BUT the mystery was revealed to Paul by Christ Jesus (Galatians 1:12) and to the apostles by the Spirit (Ephesians 3:5) as it was "now revealed" (Ephesians 3:5).
Why does the Spirit not "reveal" it to the apostles?
How do you know Paul was the first to know about this "mystery"?
Did the Spirit not know it before Paul?
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
This is just another Thread about replacement Theology!

I don't think so. It sounds like one of several versions of Dispensationalism where they literally divide the scripture into two.

All except Paul and parts of Acts (depending on which version of Dispensationalism) are applicable to us.
All the rest we can ignore as it is only applicable to Jews.,
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My point (which you ignored) was that Jesus preached the cross.
Jesus spoke of his death and resurrection and in John 3:14-15 he was speaking of his death once again, which is not preaching the mystery of the cross that would justify all freely. John 3:18 reiterates that they had to believe only on his name.
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus spoke of his death and resurrection and in John 3:14-15 he was speaking of his death once again, which is not preaching the mystery of the cross that would justify all freely. John 3:18 reiterates that they had to believe only on his name.

Of course he spoke of the cross.
What do you think he meant by being "lifted up"?

"everyone who believes in him may have eternal life" - not just Jews.
Isn't that being justified freely?
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think so. It sounds like one of several versions of Dispensationalism where they literally divide the scripture into two.

All except Paul and parts of Acts (depending on which version of Dispensationalism) are applicable to us.
All the rest we can ignore as it is only applicable to Jews.,

That is correct Mungo, except the Bible is not to be ignored or discounted but rather rightly divided as to whom it pertains.
As an example:
Matthew 23:2-3 teaches us Jesus upheld the law, but I do not observe the law as these verses command, as they do not pertain to me, they were spoken to Israel.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of course he spoke of the cross.
What do you think he meant by being "lifted up"?

"everyone who believes in him may have eternal life" - not just Jews.
Isn't that being justified freely?

Speaking of his death on the cross is not preaching the cross as does Paul 1 Corinthians 1:17
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Right. So you made it up!

The Davidic kingdom they were preaching is found throughout scripture.
My full statement was below:
No there is no statement that says that exactly, what kingdom was at hand then? Matthew 4:17 what kingdom was Jesus preaching?

Once again I would ask what kingdom was being preached in the verse below:
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

David was told of God that his kingdom and throne would be established forever.

Deuteronomy 15:6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

God has promised Israel will reign over many nations.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Jesus will have dominion over the nations in his kingdom on earth, and the saints, the believing remnant of Israel, will possess this kingdom forever.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

snipe

All very true. But because of unbelief on the part of Israel God saw that no one could keep the law and that most did not believe what God said so God came to the rescue of man by doing all that is necessary for their salvation on the cross where God (Jesus) paid for the sins of all mankind.

So God now offers salvation to those that believe the gospel that Jesus gave to Paul.

The Gospel was changed by God:

The failure or refusal to discern the Pauline Gospel as a separate and new revelation, and not a “development from Judaism,” accounts for two-thirds of the confusion in many people’s minds today as regards just what the Gospel is.

Paul’s Gospel will suffer no admixture with works on the one hand or religious pretensions and performances on the other. It is simple and clear as the sunlight from heaven.

The end of man is where God begins (Romans 3), at what might be called the opening of the Pauline Revelation. Most unsaved people today believe in their hearts that the reason they are not saved is because of something they have not yet done, some step that remains for them to take before God will accept them. But this is absolutely untrue.

When Christ said “It is finished,” He meant that He had, then and there, paid the debt for the whole human race. “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:6).

Now Paul, in his wonderful revelation declares, that Gad hath “reconciled the world unto Himself; that God was in Christ (at the cross) reconciling the world unto Himself, (II Corinthians 5:19). ---- Men do not know this, but they conceive that something stands between them and God, before God will accept, or forgive, them.

If you tell a man that God is demanding no good works of him whatsoever, no religious observances or church ordinances, that God is not asking him to undertake any duties at all, but that God invites him to believe a glad message that his sins have already been dealt with at the cross, and that God expects him to believe this good news and be exceedingly happy about it - if you tell an unsaved man such a story as this, he is astonished and overwhelmed - yet this is the Gospel of Grace!

Note: Taken from the “Bible Student’s Notebook” a weekly Bible study publication.
www.BibleStudentsNotebook.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
All very true. But because of unbelief on the part of Israel God saw that no one could keep the law and that most did not believe what God said so God came to the rescue of man by doing all that is necessary for their salvation on the cross where God (Jesus) paid for the sins of all mankind.

So God now offers salvation to those that believe the gospel that Jesus gave to Paul.

The Gospel was changed by God:

The failure or refusal to discern the Pauline Gospel as a separate and new revelation, and not a “development from Judaism,” accounts for two-thirds of the confusion in many people’s minds today as regards just what the Gospel is.

Paul’s Gospel will suffer no admixture with works on the one hand or religious pretensions and performances on the other. It is simple and clear as the sunlight from heaven.

The end of man is where God begins (Romans 3), at what might be called the opening of the Pauline Revelation. Most unsaved people today believe in their hearts that the reason they are not saved is because of something they have not yet done, some step that remains for them to take before God will accept them. But this is absolutely untrue.

When Christ said “It is finished,” He meant that He had, then and there, paid the debt for the whole human race. “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:6).

Now Paul, in his wonderful revelation declares, that Gad hath “reconciled the world unto Himself; that God was in Christ (at the cross) reconciling the world unto Himself, (II Corinthians 5:19). ---- Men do not know this, but they conceive that something stands between them and God, before God will accept, or forgive, them.

If you tell a man that God is demanding no good works of him whatsoever, no religious observances or church ordinances, that God is not asking him to undertake any duties at all, but that God invites him to believe a glad message that his sins have already been dealt with at the cross, and that God expects him to believe this good news and be exceedingly happy about it - if you tell an unsaved man such a story as this, he is astonished and overwhelmed - yet this is the Gospel of Grace!

Note: Taken from the “Bible Student’s Notebook” a weekly Bible study publication.
www.BibleStudentsNotebook.com
hr, i love you man ok? Andimo no one here ever told you that "God demands good works," but rather all must come before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether good or evil. No demands whatever, right?

So i hope you understand and maybe even might come to forgive me for my past replies to you ok, i have no doubt that your works are likely better than mine, as i have said.
However you will be judged for your works, and idc what your dad accused you of, ok, you are perfect just like you are, certainly. But see God is not our judge. You must reap what you sow.

Do you have any unconfessed sin, that someone might bring a complaint against you?
i srsly doubt it, as you do not strike me as that kind of guy.
But confession leads to salvation, yes?

imo you are not sinning hr, you are just being tortured
IMG_0361.JPG

and imo go with mom ok, if that applies.
ok peace
Matthew 16:24 Lexicon: Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
you dont get to just pick your favorite vv, ok
 
Last edited:

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Gentiles are not one of the folds, they are the scattered sheep of Israel.

The scattered sheep is the believing remnant of Israel; the little flock.


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The existing fold is the believing Israel of God, the little flock. The other sheep are the little flock that has been scattered into other countries. The believing remnant scattered into other countries, will be all gathered together, to form one nation, one fold; Israel and Judah will be one nation.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.


John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The scattered sheep is the believing remnant of Israel; the little flock.


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The existing fold is the believing Israel of God, the little flock. The other sheep are the little flock that has been scattered into other countries. The believing remnant scattered into other countries, will be all gathered together, to form one nation, one fold; Israel and Judah will be one nation.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.


John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Again...you are speaking against Christ, who said:

Matthew 15:24
"But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”​

You are mixing what is written of " two nations" with what is written of "two folds."

Jesus came only for the house of Israel, which was two "nations"--not two folds. That is your error.

He comes "again" for the gentiles which are not of the fold or house of Israel.
 

Truth

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2017
1,737
1,797
113
70
AZ, Quartzsite
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think so. It sounds like one of several versions of Dispensationalism where they literally divide the scripture into two.

All except Paul and parts of Acts (depending on which version of Dispensationalism) are applicable to us.
All the rest we can ignore as it is only applicable to Jews.,

I am not sure if you hold to two different Gospel's, one to the Jew, and one to the Gentile??
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nothing was required as yet in regard to the cross or his propitiatory death and resurrection.

These things had not yet happened; and so their significance was not explorable by those who would seek to understand the events that occurred with Christ.

Paul and certain other apostles were called to explain the significance of the Cross after the fact.

Before the Cross occurred, that aspect of the gospel was not explorable in our human thinking; and therefore there is no revelation in the gospels as to what the Cross means for us as concerning forgiveness of sins.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be sent to tell the apostles what they could not bear as yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug