What about the Death to Self message ?

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marks

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Good morning, marks. Hope you had a great weekend : )

I sense you might be winding up for making an objection that I am trying to please God through works (forgive me if I'm wrong. Just that you're questions are often set ups), but the answer to your question is what I've been saying lately about giving myself ever increasingly to prayer, worship, the word, and service to God, as I believe these constitute the primary means by which we abide in Him as believers.
Not sure if I should continue, if you are not wishing to.

Much love!
 

marks

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I sense you might be winding up for making an objection that I am trying to please God through works (forgive me if I'm wrong. Just that you're questions are often set ups),

Just to be clear, many of the questions I ask are intended to focus attention on the implications of something that has been said.

In this case, your comment was that praying in the spirit is necessarily in tongues. My question is that if this is so, and if not all are actually given the gift of tongues, then how do those who are not given tongues able to pray in the spirit?

Your comment was that we can all pray "Spirit-led". But that's not what I'm asking about.

This highlights two distinctions between us. One is the belief in a separate "baptism of the Spirit", and the other being that all receive tongues as a spiritual gift.

I show Scripture that there is only one baptism, and it is into Jesus. You do not wish to discuss it. OK.

1 Corinthians 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Do all speak in tongues?

You've separated tongues into two gifts, one of them specifically a prayer tongue.

1 Corinthians 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I would say that according to this passage that's what tongues is, a language by which to speak to God outside of normal human understanding.

This shows the difference in how you read the Bible and how I read the Bible.

For me, "he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God". It's all prayer.

There is one baptism . . . so there is only one baptism. For you, there are two, unless you mean that Romans 6, baptized into Christ, is the same thing as the "baptism of the Spirit".

Much love!
 
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marks

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So why the constant effort when We are already dead!! Why do we still keep struggling to kill which God says is DEAD?
It was final, finished, done Rom 6 10-11.

This must be linked to the knowledge that 'our mind must be renewed' about all this if we are going to life in victory! .."be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
That we believe His word and what He says about us.

I keep coming back to this not only because it's so important, but it's so important to me personally.

As the discussions reveal, there is no one who claims to not commit sins, even those who teach that without sinlessness they won't be saved! Even those who teach that the commission of sin proves they are not in Christ.

None, not one are without sin.

It has to be by faith, so that it can be by grace. So that it can be for all.

I'm really sorry for getting so far off track. To me it all seems like the same thing.

Much love!
 
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Waiting on him

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Clarify this for me. Peter was asking, "can any man forbid them baptism in the Spirit," not baptism in water?
Hi Hidden,
I personally believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was very new to all, this early on, so of course the apostles were still baptizing with water. I’m certain Paul began to receive clarity as to how it worked when he encountered the men that had been baptized into Johns baptism, while Paul was seeking they began to speak in tongues.
 
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marks

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Clarify this for me. Peter was asking, "can any man forbid them baptism in the Spirit," not baptism in water?

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I think Peter was speaking of baptizing Cornelius and his household in water.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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If you look at what I wrote, I'm not talking about replacing the Bible with personal experience either.

But I am talking about including personal life experience in the formation of doctrine.

OK. Someone sits in church and hears, "We can be Christians, but not baptized in the Holy Spirit. Without that baptism we lack the power our lives need". Bad theology, through and through.

But a person hears that, and looks at their life, and thinks, I lack power. So I'm going to ask God to baptize me in the Spirit! They ask, and by faith, receive from God power. They may receive a filling of the Spirit.

Then they go on to say, It's true! I did need to be baptized in the Spirit! Can can feel the power!

Now, the erroneous teaching about some second baptism has seemingly been substantiated by their perceptions of what they experienced.

Marks, everything about the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the Gentile Cornelius and his household was contrary to scripture, as was the vision Peter experienced showing him to eat unclean foods. But in both instances, these very personal life experiences were included in the formation of Christian doctrine. Believe what you wish, but concerning faith, I feel like you (and many who share similar views) don't really walk in very much of it, except with regard to the matter of salvation. After that, it's all sort of... faithlessness.
 

Episkopos

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A W TOZER: Christianity is so entangled with the world that millions never guess how radically they have missed the New Testament pattern. Compromise is everywhere. The man who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him. The fact is that we are not today producing saints. We are making converts to an ineffectual type of Christianity that bears little resemblance to that of the New Testament. The average so-called Bible Christian in our times is but a wretched parody on true sainthood. Yet we put millions of dollars behind movements to perpetuate this degenerate form of religion and attack the man who dares to challenge the wisdom of it.


And that was not as bad as today. Things are even worse now.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi Hidden,
I personally believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was very new to all, this early on, so of course the apostles were still baptizing with water. I’m certain Paul began to receive clarity as to how it worked when he encountered the men that had been baptized into Johns baptism, while Paul was seeking they began to speak in tongues.

Greetings, Waiting On Him.

So you are saying that baptism in water was replaced eventually? I'm not fully sure I understand your point. Maybe you can clarify your response for me.

Blessings in Christ! and thanks for the response.
 

marks

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Hi Hidden,
I personally believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was very new to all, this early on, so of course the apostles were still baptizing with water. I’m certain Paul began to receive clarity as to how it worked when he encountered the men that had been baptized into Johns baptism, while Paul was seeking they began to speak in tongues.

Hi Waiting on him,

I don't think at this time that Paul had received his revelations from Jesus from which he would write the letters in the New Testament teaching us about these things.

Water baptism had been practiced by the Jews for centuries, not to mention many other nations and religions. Jesus had even told the disciples to baptize, I believe that He meant with water.

The Jews understood baptism to be part of what a Gentile did to become a Jew. This was why the Pharisees were so offended by John, who was baptizing Jews, making them no better than Gentiles.

Baptizing Gentiles who became Christians joined them to Israel, as Israel was still in line for the kingdom to come.

When the Jews gave final rejection to the Gospel, and the Gospel went instead to the Gentiles, well, Paul said that he was glad he Didn't baptize! Disobedience to Jesus' command? Or a different dispensation?

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I think Peter was speaking of baptizing Cornelius and his household in water.

Much love!

Well yes! That's what I was saying, LoL. So then you regard the Spirit being poured out upon Cornelius and his household as not being a baptism in the Holy Spirit, correct? What then do you interpret it to be? My next question would be what you interpret Pentecost to have been? Was it or was it not a fulfillment of the scripture, "I will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire"?

I think I know the answer to the second question already, but I try not to assume things.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi Waiting on him,

I don't think at this time that Paul had received his revelations from Jesus from which he would write the letters in the New Testament teaching us about these things.

Water baptism had been practiced by the Jews for centuries, not to mention many other nations and religions. Jesus had even told the disciples to baptize, I believe that He meant with water.

The Jews understood baptism to be part of what a Gentile did to become a Jew. This was why the Pharisees were so offended by John, who was baptizing Jews, making them no better than Gentiles.

Baptizing Gentiles who became Christians joined them to Israel, as Israel was still in line for the kingdom to come.

When the Jews gave final rejection to the Gospel, and the Gospel went instead to the Gentiles, well, Paul said that he was glad he Didn't baptize! Disobedience to Jesus' command? Or a different dispensation?

Much love!

Wow... so you teach that water baptism has been done away with, marks?

I'm not against "unorthodox" interpretations of scripture, but that's really getting out there a ways. How many people share that belief with you? :eek: Is it a Reformed doctrine I don't know about or something? :eek::eek:
 

Waiting on him

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Greetings, Waiting On Him.

So you are saying that baptism in water was replaced eventually? I'm not fully sure I understand your point. Maybe you can clarify your response for me.

Blessings in Christ! and thanks for the response.
Jesus baptizes with fire. That’s really all I have. I understand that what I’m stating goes against the grain of many, but it’s seen in scripture in the overall picture of their growth and knowledge of Christ as revealed by the Spirit.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Jesus baptizes with fire. That’s really all I have. I understand that what I’m stating goes against the grain of many, but it’s seen in scripture in the overall picture of their growth and knowledge of Christ as revealed by the Spirit.

Ok. I'm assuming then that when Jesus told Nicodemas "except a man be born of water and the Spirit," you believe that He was talking about natural birth or something? Just trying to account for a few things that come to mind... I've never heard of anyone teaching that water baptism has been done away with before, so this is new to me.
 

Waiting on him

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Ok. I'm assuming then that when Jesus told Nicodemas "except a man be born of water and the Spirit," you believe that He was talking about natural birth or something? Just trying to account for a few things that come to mind... I've never heard of anyone teaching that water baptism has been done away with before, so this is new to me.
Pump the brakes, please.... I don’t forbid at all, my wife and I attend an old time baptism a few weeks ago, where several individuals in their 60’s and 70’s were fully submerged in the lake. It was beautiful... a reaffirmation of faith in our King. Only saying I don’t believe it’s necessary for rebirth.
 

Hidden In Him

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Pump the brakes, please.... I don’t forbid at all, my wife and I attend an old time baptism a few weeks ago, where several individuals in their 60’s and 70’s were fully submerged in the lake. It was beautiful... a reaffirmation of faith in our King. Only saying I don’t believe it’s necessary for rebirth.

Oh, ok : ) I don't either, but I'd never go so far as to teach that it has somehow been replaced and need not be practiced anymore. That would be like throwing out communion as well, LoL.

But thanks for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it.