What about the Death to Self message ?

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Hidden In Him

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Just a question.... why do you think Jesus didn’t baptize with water?

Because He had His disciples do it for Him on His authority. As for why, quite possibly because authority would be handed over to them after His resurrection, and He wanted it established beforehand that they had the authority to baptize in His name.
 

Waiting on him

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Because He had His disciples do it for Him on His authority. As for why, quite possibly because authority would be handed over to them after His resurrection, and He wanted it established beforehand that they had the authority to baptize in His name.
Acts 10:47 KJV
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Tecarta BibleOk, let’s take a slow look at one of your previous questions. ^^,, do you see the order, these had already received the Holy Ghost^^^? This makes no sense to me, what would water accomplish?
 

marks

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Marks, everything about the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the Gentile Cornelius and his household was contrary to scripture, as was the vision Peter experienced showing him to eat unclean foods.

I don't think it was contrary to Scripture at all.

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;"

Isaiah 42:6 ". . . and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

Isaiah 49:6 "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

God had foretold salvation to the Gentiles, and also foretold that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all.

Rather than being contrary to Scripture, it was proclaimed in Scripture.

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The voice tells him, "what God has cleansed . . ." This was not contrary to what God had already said.

Mark 7:19 "because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats." YLT

The New American Standard puts it this way, "Thus He declared all foods clean."

But in both instances, these very personal life experiences were included in the formation of Christian doctrine.

Do you see now that these life experiences where actually in fulfillment of what what already written, and spoken by God?

Believe what you wish,

I've always found this invitation dismissive and condescending. At it's heart lay the intellectual dishonest of choosing one belief over another based on preference, and not on evidence, even contrary to evidence.

What I wish is to believe what the Bible teaches. Not by what I can find out through my senses. But the doctrines of Scripture. I assume the same is true for you.

but concerning faith, I feel like you (and many who share similar views) don't really walk in very much of it, except with regard to the matter of salvation. After that, it's all sort of... faithlessness.

OK then. In your eyes I'm a babe in Christ, mostly faithless. You've never met me, and really have no concept of what my life is like. But you've judged me faithless. And turned it personal.

But forget about me! It's not about me! It's about what the Bible says.

Much love!
 

Waiting on him

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Acts 11:15-18 KJV
[15] And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Tecarta Bible
 

marks

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Well yes! That's what I was saying, LoL. So then you regard the Spirit being poured out upon Cornelius and his household as not being a baptism in the Holy Spirit, correct? What then do you interpret it to be? My next question would be what you interpret Pentecost to have been? Was it or was it not a fulfillment of the scripture, "I will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire"?

I think I know the answer to the second question already, but I try not to assume things.

Certainly the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit on that Pentecost.

Regarding Cornelius, what does the Bible call it? It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Scripture says. So what does the Scripture say happened?

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Three times Luke describes what happened. Twice we read Luke's words, the third is quoting Peter. None of these say they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and so we don't think they just aren't using the right word, they are then baptized in water.

So by the reading of Scripture, what happened at Cornelius' house was that the Holy Spirit fell upon them, being poured out, so they received the Holy Spirit. And then they were baptized in water.

Much love!
 
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Waiting on him

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Certainly the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit on that Pentecost.

Regarding Cornelius, what does the Bible call it? It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Scripture says. So what does the Scripture say happened?

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Three times Luke describes what happened. Twice we read Luke's words, the third is quoting Peter. None of these say they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and so we don't think they just aren't using the right word, they are then baptized in water.

So by the reading of Scripture, what happened at Cornelius' house was that the Holy Spirit fell upon them, being poured out, so they received the Holy Spirit. And then they were baptized in water.

Much love!
So what do you believe was the call for water all about, seeing they’d already received the Holy Spirit?
 

Waiting on him

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Certainly the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit on that Pentecost.

Regarding Cornelius, what does the Bible call it? It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Scripture says. So what does the Scripture say happened?

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Three times Luke describes what happened. Twice we read Luke's words, the third is quoting Peter. None of these say they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and so we don't think they just aren't using the right word, they are then baptized in water.

So by the reading of Scripture, what happened at Cornelius' house was that the Holy Spirit fell upon them, being poured out, so they received the Holy Spirit. And then they were baptized in water.

Much love!
I tend to believe it was just habitual, all a discovery process.
 

marks

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Wow... so you teach that water baptism has been done away with, marks?

I'm not against "unorthodox" interpretations of scripture, but that's really getting out there a ways. How many people share that belief with you? :eek: Is it a Reformed doctrine I don't know about or something? :eek::eek:
Firstly, that's not what I wrote.

Secondly, I'm not planning on getting into some kind of "personal defense". It's not about me. It's about what the Bible says. The Bible says, in a part especially directed to the Gentile Christians in the current age, that there is One Baptism, and that Baptism is into Christ.

So then . . . what does the Bible teach us about baptism?

Much love!
 

marks

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Cornelius and his household? When?

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

I think it happened just before they started speaking in tongues. They were immersed into Christ, joining Him in His death, and His burial, so that they would then live new lives.

And then, they were baptised in water.

Much love!
 

Earburner

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We have believed it for years, tried living it for years…but hubby and I were talking and at 77 & 82 we find we are no more “dead” than were were in the 60’s 70’s. o_O

I’ve just read a book which really mad me think!!
…I know our old self got 'put on the altar' but it seems that most of us keep crawling on and off!! :eek:

Do you know anyone who has no chinks, hooks , or buttons to get pushed that is truly ‘dead’?
I don’t !!

It seems we have failed to really grasp the full message that we already did die IN CHRIST. Rom 6.6
So why the constant effort when We are already dead!! Why do we still keep struggling to kill which God says is DEAD?
It was final, finished, done Rom 6 10-11.

This must be linked to the knowledge that 'our mind must be renewed' about all this if we are going to life in victory! .."be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
That we believe His word and what He says about us.

We remember that God asked Adam in the Garden..” Who told you that you were naked?” ( one of the many favourites of @bbyrd009 :) )

And we know who said to Jesus- “ IF thou be the son of God…

It is the same voice which constantly tells to us that we do not measure up!! (and often he uses the voices of some in our life or on this very site to tell us that!! :D He will use any will object he can to so his destructive work)

If we think about what is called 'the death to self message'…really it is all about US and Self!!! ( " How am I doing...always measuring the me." )
“ Am I being good and spiritual by being dead enough.?”


Maybe it is time that we just stopped Trying and started bathing in His Presence..and seeng our God who is indeed awesome in wonder ..and as @Not me 's lovely post said the other day… "Let Us Draw Near…"in FULL assurance of faith.."

Time we believed what The Word has told us… For Ye are dead, and our new life is hid with Christ in God “
BG, you are absolutely correct! The death of our "old man" doesn't die by our struggling to kill it off, but rather by the renewing of our mind.
In realty, Born again christians have a "split personality" disorder, aka being schitzophenic.
We have both our own mind, and the mind of Christ dwelling within us, and the battle is on!!

The sure cure for this situation, is to accept the reality through faith, that by our giving ourselves to Christ, as a living and holy sacrifice, on a daily basis, we are giving over to Him our "natural man", the mind of our own self will. From there He begins to renew us, through His Holy Spirit and His word, but not according to what we think we should be, or any church, but rather what He desires to accomplish in us and through us.

How often we give ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, is going to be relative to how fast we shall grow in Him. To forget to offer ourselves daily, allowing Him to reign in us, just extends the time of our growth in Him. This easily explains WHY many who are Christians for 30-50 years, aren't anymore knowledgable in the Spirit, than when they first began. Their growth was stunted due to misinformation, and/or just plain ignorance and neglect.
 

Hidden In Him

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Acts 10:47 KJV
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Tecarta BibleOk, let’s take a slow look at one of your previous questions. ^^,, do you see the order, these had already received the Holy Ghost^^^? This makes no sense to me, what would water accomplish?

Water baptism symbolized the death to the old life and rebirth into a new one. It was therefore a powerful teaching tool of what was supposed to be taking place in the life of a believer, and a reminder that we were (after water baptism) to walk in Spirit, as though dead to the flesh.

See, if I can speak freely with you, again we have a theory (marks presented another one similar to this) where Christians are running around committing sin by teaching and/or allowing outmoded practices that had supposedly passed away in Christ (i.e. in this case baptizing believers in water). Nothing is being said about it, and it is not being corrected. This strikes me as very disjointed, with the sin being just looked over instead of addressed and dealt with. Even Paul is seen to be baptizing in water when it was supposedly no longer valid (1 Corinthians 1:12-17). I see this as trying to fit scripture into a particular theologically framework rather than let then say what they actually say, kind of like mashing a square peg into a round hole.
 

marks

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Oh, ok : ) I don't either, but I'd never go so far as to teach that it has somehow been replaced and need not be practiced anymore. That would be like throwing out communion as well, LoL.

But thanks for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it.
I'm glad we are all clear that baptism isn't required for salvation. So maybe I'm not so unorthdox after all?

;)
 

marks

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(marks presented another one similar to this) where Christians are running around committing sin by teaching and/or allowing outmoded practices that had supposedly passed away in Christ (i.e. in this case baptizing believers in water)

This sort of thing doesn't add to the conversation, and doesn't need to continue.

Where have I said we should not be water baptized? That Christians sin by teaching baptism, and by practicing it?

Or is it that you have an issue with me quoting the Bible, that there is in fact "one baptism", and that we "were baptized into Jesus Christ"?

You've not yet responded to this particular point. Any thoughts?

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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I don't think it was contrary to Scripture at all.

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;"

Isaiah 42:6 ". . . and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

Isaiah 49:6 "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

God had foretold salvation to the Gentiles, and also foretold that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all.

Rather than being contrary to Scripture, it was proclaimed in Scripture.

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The voice tells him, "what God has cleansed . . ." This was not contrary to what God had already said.

Mark 7:19 "because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats." YLT

The New American Standard puts it this way, "Thus He declared all foods clean."

If Peter understood all this then why did he declare, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean"? Why did he need a vision to teach him? Why was he and everyone with him astonished that the Spirit was poured out upon Gentiles? Why did the council make their changes regarding the Gentiles only after this event?
OK then. In your eyes I'm a babe in Christ, mostly faithless. You've never met me, and really have no concept of what my life is like. But you've judged me faithless. And turned it personal.

But forget about me! It's not about me! It's about what the Bible says.

Marks, you've been accusing me for three pages now of "not going by what the Bible says" and I hadn't said a word about it out complaining that you were getting "personal." You were being honest about what you felt. The minute I risk being honest with you about how I feel when I see this argument presented, suddenly we have an issue...

Talk to you later, man. Gotta go.
 

marks

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So what do you believe was the call for water all about, seeing they’d already received the Holy Spirit?
As part of the process of joining them to Israel according to what they had practiced, and according to what Jesus commanded.

Much love!
 
B

brakelite

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@marks @Hidden In Him just for a little clarity, first, Agabus did not say to Paul, "dont go". He merely warned Paul to what was awaiting when he did go. Second, it was his friends, NOT the prophet, who wanted him to stay. Thus it certainly wasn't a sin to go, not was at against the casing of the holy Spirit.
For a little perspective...Jesus warned that all who would live godly by His grace would suffer persecution. Should wet then not live godly?
 

Hidden In Him

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@marks @Hidden In Him just for a little clarity, first, Agabus did not say to Paul, "dont go". He merely warned Paul to what was awaiting when he did go. Second, it was his friends, NOT the prophet, who wanted him to stay. Thus it certainly wasn't a sin to go, not was at against the casing of the holy Spirit.
For a little perspective...Jesus warned that all who would live godly by His grace would suffer persecution. Should we then not live godly?

Yes. I just think much more would have been made of it if Paul had been walking in disobedience to what the Spirit was saying he should do. You would have him going back on his earlier sentiment that "it is more needful for you that I stay," to where he in effect no longer cared either about the Lord's will OR staying for those who needed him; people who were now literally begging him to stay. It would suggest a spiritual failing on Paul's part of immense proportions.

We have an expression here in the States called "suicide by cop." You point a gun at the cops so they have no choice but to take you out. I'm laughing when I think about this, but it's as if Paul finally said, "That's it. I've had all I want with this serving God business. I'm going to Jerusalem and end this thing now! (LoL) And when I get there, it's gonna be, 'Come on, Pharisees! You still wanna take me out? Well Here's your chance, baby! I dare you. MAKE MY DAY!'" :D

Ah, me, LoL!! :p

Good to have a laugh again : )
Or just not willing to push the matter further. Rather to leave Paul in God's hands, since he clearly isn't willing to listen.

I forgot to mention it, but this was actually a fairy reasonable response to what they might have been telling him by "God's will be done." It's just that the implications leave way too much unsaid, for me anyway.

Btw, my apologies if I came off insulting. You were getting more direct, so I went there as well, but I wasn't mocking what you believe. I was just trying to point out what I thought were the flaws.

Maybe we'll get to the One baptism question next time around, bro.

Have a good day!
Blessings in Christ,
HiH