2 Peter 3:8

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Christina

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Let it go Jordan it doesnt effect anyones salvation just shows they listening to men If I say my neighbor is with child ...It means she is pregant ..period Thats a figure of speech. It doesnt mean she's at the local school with the children ..If you dont understand Jewish idioms you cant understand many verses in the Bible. And if you dont understand The Lords Day or that God rests on the Sabbath 7th day they got some study do to.
 

Jordan

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Let it go Jordan it doesnt effect anyones salvation just shows they listen to men If I say my neighbor is with child ...It means she is pregant ..period Thats a figure of speech. It doesnt mean she's at the local school with the children ..If you dont understand Jewish idioms you cant understand many verses in the Bible. And if you dont understand The Lords Day or that God rests on the Sabbath 7th day they got some study do to.
Well, the reason I posted it this morning, is because I felt that excepttruth was interested in hearing. I only posted it for him (or her), not for any other people.But you are right, it doesn't affect one's salvation.
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Christina

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Why because we arent adding to the Word and just taking it as it was written ... OK?????/ your entitled to your opinion? Sense you nor anyone has of yet to give me a single verse as support dont understand idioms or Hebrew traditions................The fact is its nothing but mens words ...... I wasnt attempting to be insulting but those are the facts.
 

epistemaniac

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well all I have seen from Jordan and Christiana are men's words and opinions regarding their understanding/opinion/interpretations of Hebrew idioms. And since the phrase "Hebrew idioms" does not appear anywhere in scripture, it is therefore a man made doctrine... and therefore it is then merely and only man's or woman's words and is adding to scripture.... not being insulting here.... just stating the facts.... so unless someone can show me anywhere in scripture where it specifically uses the phrase "Hebrew idioms" I have no choice but to dismiss it as man's interpretation, man's words and man's words only.... in fact, my King James bible does not even use the word "idiom" let alone the phrase "Hebrew idiom"!!!! it MUST be a man made doctrine then!!!!!can you say satire....? gooood.... I knew you could lol.....alpha and omega.... we are in agreement that God is outside of time... but I believe He is outside of both time and space, therefore to speak of God "traveling" at X miles per hour just doesn't make any sense to me since traveling implies the movement through time and space. But, regardless, thanks for your respectful manner of discourse.... it is a pleasure to be able to discuss issues of any kind when we are not accusing one another of constantly of "adding to scripture" or that our views are all "man' interpretations" as if there is any other kind!!!! lol!!! As if every single person that posts here isn't, likewise, posting "man's interpretations"!!! What? Would someone expect a leprechaun's interpretation!!??!!!??? lol.... Some people seem unable to grasp the very simple point that whenever they open their mouths to say, or type on their keyboard, "this scripture means....x, y and z." they are offering an interpretation, a human subjective fallible interpretation. Even the process of selecting other verses in the bible to use in the interpretive process..... cross referencing etc... is itself a subjective human activity. Therefore saying things like "x, y and z is a Hebrew idiom and this idiom means a, b and c" is every bit as much "man's opinion" as is quoting from our favorite commentaries and commentators. But then, as I write this, I realized all along that I was preaching to the choir, and thus, you probably likewise realize I did not write this for your benefit at all
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lol.....blessings,ken
 

Alpha and Omega

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Not only that Ken but I also tried to find Hebrew idioms and I was successful. However I didn't find any mention of this verse in them at all. So if anyone can point me to a website that mentions that this is a Hebrew idiom that would be great.Also, Ken I would agree with you that the Lord isn't traveling. He is everywhere to begin with. He being eternal, infinite implies that he is outside of time, matter and space. However my original post way back in the other thread was just to show an interesting point that the math is so close to the speed of light. I didn't do the math (I'm not that smart) I just got it from a website. Like I said before the Lord talks to us with metaphors, smilies and of course in literal terms. This verse is a simile.
 

Jordan

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Not only that Ken but I also tried to find Hebrew idioms and I was successful. However I didn't find any mention of this verse in them at all. So if anyone can point me to a website that mentions that this is a Hebrew idiom that would be great.
If multiple scripures that literally backs up II Peter 3:8 as been seen, can't make you see, what makes you think that a website can un-blind you?BTW this will I say... no wait not me... but scripture.Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
 

epistemaniac

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Jordan, why isn't it the case that it is you who are blind? Is it because Christiana believes this, and therefore, you do too? And this then means you are correct? Because you and Christiana say so? All these other verses you mention, while it is the case that we are to compare Scripture with Scripture, you seem blind to the fact that when you do this, you are a human being, a sinner saved by grace, who has decided that these verses "back up" your claim regarding your INTERPRETATION of II Peter 3:8... and since you are merely a man, and it is you, a mere man, who says that these other verses back up your interpretation of II Peter 3:8, then it is only "man's interpretation" that is saying that these other verses support your understanding and interpretation of this verse in II Peter 3:8. Now you are entitled to your interpretation of this verse, of course, just as every one else is. But that is the main point of what I am saying, it is merely and only YOUR opinion and interpretation. Your interpretation may even be correct. But the point is, your interpretation is not inspired by God, it is not perfect, without error. The Scriptures are perfect, infallible and without error, but your interpretation is not. And even when you are referring to other perfect inspired inerrant scriptures in order to support your interpretation of the scriptures, it is STILL your human, fallible, prone to err, sinful opinion and interpretation which "thinks" that these other verses support your interpretation. God did not whisper in your ear and tell you those other verses are to be compared to II Peter 3:8, YOU decided to say these other verses support your interpretation of II Peter 3:8. In other words, to put it another way, there is nothing in II Peter 3:8 that specifically and exactly says you, me, and everyone else is supposed to refer to these other verses in order to properly interpret Ii Peter 3:8. Can you show me anywhere in II peter 3:8 where it specifically says to refer to any other verses in the Bible? No. And since you cannot point to anywhere in this verse which specifically says that we are to refer to these other verses you speak of, then it is your human, fallible, opinion, man's opinion, that says we are to consult these other verses in order to support your understanding of the verse. Can you grasp this basic point? If you could, we could get past the derisive name calling and innuendos that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is less spiritual than you are, is "blind", is basing their own views on "man's interpretations", "man's words", etc etc etc and actually have a productive Christian discussion about the various merits and demerits of one another's opinions concerning the interpretation of God's holy word. But until you get past the fundamental error of considering your own interpretations of scripture as being equal to the scriptures themselves in infallibility and level of authority, you will never progress in your understanding of God's word, you will stay in your shallow opinions, accuse everyone else of as the ones who actually have the "opinions" while you just "give God's word", and you can use this lame excuse to not have to have a critical eye towards your own beliefs. You are, in other words, unteachable. And you will continue to think you can just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you because they are not as spiritual as you are, or they base their views on man's traditions, or some other tired, trite, shallow cliche. Please, get past this.... get past this level of "milk", and move to having productive discussions where you can defend your views based on something other then it being your opinion, and yopur opinion and God's word is basically the same, and that is that. No room for discussion because "Jordan has spoken". This may seem harsh Jordan. But I am really speaking to you in Christian love out of concern for you.... out of concern that you mature, that you be able to be corrected.... not by me necessarily, but by anyone.... well anyone besides Christiana lol... And for you to stop thinking that your opinion and interpretation cannot be questioned.blessings,ken
 

Christina

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Not only that Ken but I also tried to find Hebrew idioms and I was successful. However I didn't find any mention of this verse in them at all. So if anyone can point me to a website that mentions that this is a Hebrew idiom that would be great.Also, Ken I would agree with you that the Lord isn't traveling. He is everywhere to begin with. He being eternal, infinite implies that he is outside of time, matter and space. However my original post way back in the other thread was just to show an interesting point that the math is so close to the speed of light. I didn't do the math (I'm not that smart) I just got it from a website. Like I said before the Lord talks to us with metaphors, smilies and of course in literal terms. This verse is a simile.
It really doesnt matter to me if anyone gets this or not I was only trying to show this because its the key to one hour of temptation in Rev. One hour in a thousand year period is the same as 5 months on earth (our time ) its the amount of Time the Locust army will be on earth thats one reason why God wanted us to understand it . He always gives a second wittness but believe what you will that God reveals a big hidden thing ... that he is forever/timeless ..Duh .. like thats a big wowie of a secret we all already know ...Im not trying to be right Im trying to show you guys how awesome and perfect Gods word is but hey you guys think you got it down fine by me ..Im done trying to show you you have to find it in Hebrew if it was commomly understood all Christians would get it right they didnt understand it. ........................ (Mynv Pla hb "qh) (lv wmwy) , "the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years" a common saying among the Jews- -founded on the same passage,this phrase should be thought to refer, as it is by some, to the day of judgment, and be expressive of the duration of that: it is certain that the Jews interpreted days of millenniums, and reckoned millenniums by days, and used this phrase in confirmation of it. Thus they say F1, ``in the time to come, which is in the last days, on the sixth day, which is the sixth millennium, when the Messiah comes, for the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' And a little after, ``"the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man". This is in the time of the Messiah which is in the sixth day.'' And elsewhere F2, ``the sixth degree is called the sixth day, the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years. And in that day the King Messiah shall come, and it shall be called the feast of gathering, for the holy blessed God will gather in it the captivity of his people.'' So they call the sabbath, or seventh day, the seventh millennium, and interpret F3 ``"the song for the sabbath day", (Psalms 92:1) title, for the seventh millennium, for one day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' To which agrees the tradition of Elias, which runs thus F4; ``it is the tradition of the house of Elias, that the world shall be six thousand years, two thousand years void (of the law), two thousand years the law, and two thousand years the days of the Messiah;'' for they suppose that the six days of the creation were expressive of the six thousand years in which the world will stand; and that the seventh day prefigures the last millennium, in which will be the day of judgment, and the world to come; for ``the six days of the creation (they say F5) is a sign or intimation of these things: on the sixth day man was created; and on the seventh his work was finished; so the kings of the nations of the world (continue) five millenniums, answering to the five days, in which were created the fowls, and the creeping things of the waters, and other things; and the enjoyment of their kingdom is a little in the sixth, answerable to the creation of the beasts, and living creatures created at this time in the beginning of it; and the kingdom of the house of David is in the sixth millennium, answerable to the creation of man, who knew his Creator, and ruled over them all; and in the end of that millennium will be the day of judgment, answerable to man, who was judged in the end of it; and the seventh is the sabbath, and it is the beginning of the world to come.'' --------------------------------------------------------------------------------FOOTNOTES:F26 Bereshit Rabba, sect. 8. fol. 7. 3. Vajikra Rabba, sect. 19. fol. 160. 2. Bemidbar Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 216. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 20. 1. Zohar in Exod. fol. 60. 1. Tzeror Hammor, fol. 157. 1. & Nishmet Chayim Orat. 1. c. 5. fol. 12. 1. F1 Zohar in Gen. fol. 13. 4. F2 Ib. fol. 16. 1. F3 Bartenora in Misn. Tamid, c. 7. sect. 4. F4 T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 97. 1. & Avoda Zara, fol. 9. 1. F5 Ceseph Misna in Maimon. Hilchot Teshuva, c. 9. sect. 2.
 

Alpha and Omega

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OK I think I know what you are trying to say Christina. God made the earth in 7 days so therefore the end of the earth will be 7 thousand years after that right? If so can you show me the scripture that mentions this?Also, could I get a website please of that Hebrew idiom if you have it.
 

Jordan

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OK I think I know what you are trying to say Christina. God made the earth in 7 days so therefore the end of the earth will be 7 thousand years after that right? If so can you show me the scripture that mentions this?Also, could I get a website please of that Hebrew idiom if you have it.
Alpha, would this help you for a start? This is Old Testament only.http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/24_idioms.html
 

tomwebster

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I am not going to get involved in the whole argument here just wanted to point out one thing on 2 Peter 3:8.Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die(H4191) . H4191מוּתmûthmoothA primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. : Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. Sounds like God made a mistake or that His day is different than ours.2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. None of these men lived a full day, they were all less than 1000 years old.
 

Jordan

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I am not going to get involved in the whole argument here just wanted to point out one thing on 2 Peter 3:8.Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die(H4191) . H4191מוּתmûthmoothA primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. : Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. Sounds like God made a mistake or that His day is different than ours.2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. None of these men lived a full day, they were all less than 1000 years old.
You are so correct Tom. I agree 100%.
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Christina

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Here's the thing I came to understand about this the N. testament is written in Greek not Hebrew the translators were translating a Jewish figure of speech from the Greek language perspective theywere just straight translating the Words... Not the meaning of Jewish figures of speech/customs ... but that doesn't change Peter was a Jew and would have been totally familiar with this ...So why did God make this so veiled..why did our Christian fore fathers say it means what they do (a undetermined period of time) ??? Why did God say it was hidden a mystery just to tell us what we already know ?? These are the questions I asked myself ... The answer to this is in learning to understand the WAY..THE HOW...THE REASON that God teaches the way he doesThe longevity of the Christian religion relies on HOPE ... every generation sense Christ died on the cross has hoped they were the one that would see his return... If this verse had been understood to mean what I'm telling you it does ...Hope would have been destroyed in earlier times ..Remember that the Word was written to all for all times ... If you had been born a thousand years ago and under stood the importance of this verse and its meaning you would have realized Christ wasn't going to return for some 1000+ years ..That you weren't to look forward to his return... why then even study or read verses about his coming ... Why bother .. its way after we are dead...how disheartening that would have been..... Christ is returning to another generation ..we are not worthy not the ones ...dashing their hopes God in his wisdom sealed up the Book veiled the meaning to the previous Generations it was not intended to be understood until this Generation that would witness his return .. That my friend is us we are that chosen generation. The book has been opened to us ... Now if you chose to stay in the darkness of the previous generations ... Your choice you will not have less salvation because of it However sense you are that chosen generation God has given us the answers if you seek them out This verse is very important in that it not only explains many verses to us It literally tells us where we are in the appointed time of Gods timetable. It doesn't tell us just that Christ will return in a undetermined period of time ... but our time ...When knowledge increased ... our fore fathers did not have this increased knowledge they were not trying to mislead us ... they just were not meant to understand this key until now
 

Alpha and Omega

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I am not going to get involved in the whole argument here just wanted to point out one thing on 2 Peter 3:8.Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die(H4191) . H4191מוּתmûthmoothA primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. : Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. Sounds like God made a mistake or that His day is different than ours.2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. None of these men lived a full day, they were all less than 1000 years old.
So tell me where exactly does it say that these men will not live a full "day"?
 

tomwebster

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So tell me where exactly does it say that these men will not live a full "day"?
Did you see that part in RED from Gen 2:17? "... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."Added: What is the Lord's Day? The millennium right? How long is the millennium? 1000 years!
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 

Christina

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One key to Gods teaching is there is nothing new under the Sun...that means what has happened before will happen again.. God says these things happened before as en-samples (examples) to you of will be again.. Now with this in mind we know God created the world in six days on the seventh day he rested (in biblical numeric 7 is the number of spiritual completeness) this is our en-sample (example) God will create his Bride/church in 6 days on the 7th he will rest Now understanding what Peter understood here is this week is a millennial week (a week of 1000 year days) It has been more than 6000 years sense Adam was created we know from Rev. 20 that the millieum takes place after Christ return (on the 7th day God rests) ..So that places us somewhere between the end of the 6th and Start of the 7th day of this millineal week ... (the number of days appointed to man according to Hebrew tradition is 6 /(6000) Now what other clues do we have that we are in this last Generation God gave us a parable to be the second wittness to this When we see Israel (The fig tree) again shoot forth know that the Generation that wittness's this event SHALL NOT ALL PASS (die) before I return..This is Gods promise to us .. that generation is 60 years old ...it started in 1948 We know its the 6th millienial Day past Adam ... God will rest on the 7th millinial Day ..We are the last Generation thats why we can now understand what 2 Peter 3:8 means ... So if we use this information given us in interpting some of the apropriate time frames in scripture we will find we have opened up a second wittness to many time frames ...a key to better understanding what was veiled before As I mentioned in a previous post One hour in a 1000 year period is equal to 5 months in our/earth time Rev.9:5 & 9:10 tells us the Locust Army (of antichrist/Satan) is upon the earth 5 months this is our One Hour of tempation.5 months =1 hour Theres more but see if you can absorb this first and get it straight in your mind God is so very exact and awesome he has fore told us all things ... Genesis is the sister book to Rev. the two book ends the beginning and the End ..the Alpha and the Omega
 

Alpha and Omega

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Here's the thing I came to understand about this the N. testament is written in Greek not Hebrew the translators were translating a Jewish figure of speech from the Greek language perspective theywere just straight translating the Words... Not the meaning of Jewish figures of speech/customs ... but that doesn't change Peter was a Jew and would have been totally familiar with this ...
So are you saying that this is a figure of speech? A simile ? I take it that no one can find that this is indeed a Hebrew idiom so.....(Christina;67666)
So why did God make this so veiled..why did our Christian fore fathers say it means what they do (a undetermined period of time) ??? Why did God say it was hidden a mystery just to tell us what we already know ?? These are the questions I asked myself ... The answer to this is in learning to understand the WAY..THE HOW...THE REASON that God teaches the way he does
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,Ignorance is without knowledge of something. God doesn't say it was a mystery. No where in that verse does it say anything of the sort. Actually ignorance in this verse is translated 1) to be hidden, to be hidden from one, secretly, unawares, without knowingNow lets try something what makes the most sense?But, beloved, be not hidden of this one thing,But, beloved, be not secretly of this one thing,But, beloved, be not unawares of this one thing,But, beloved, be not without knowing of this one thing,Its not a mystery or a secret. He is not trying to confuse us (or the people of the time) He is simple saying be not unaware of the scriptures and then quotes Psalms 90:4. Its about the promise of the return of Christ. He is saying it does not matter if he made the promise today or 1000 years ago. It does not matter because he is eternal and will not forget. One day is with the Lord as a thousand years] That is: All time is as nothing before him, because in the presence as in the nature of God all is eternity; therefore nothing is long, nothing short, before him; no lapse of ages impairs his purposes, nor need he wait to find convenience to execute those purposes. And when the longest period of time has passed by, it is but as a moment or indivisible point in comparison of eternity. Another point to consider is that Peter used the term “day” (Greek hemera) and the phrase “thousand years” (chilia ete). This in itself is proof that God is able to communicate to man the difference between one day and 1,000 years. (For similes to make sense, one first must understand the literal difference between what is being compared. If there were no difference, then it would be meaningless to use such a figure of speech.)(Christina;67666)
The longevity of the Christian religion relies on HOPE ... every generation sense Christ died on the cross has hoped they were the one that would see his return... If this verse had been understood to mean what I'm telling you it does ...Hope would have been destroyed in earlier times ..Remember that the Word was written to all for all times ... If you had been born a thousand years ago and under stood the importance of this verse and its meaning you would have realized Christ wasn't going to return for some 1000+ years ..That you weren't to look forward to his return... why then even study or read verses about his coming ... Why bother .. its way after we are dead...how disheartening that would have been..... Christ is returning to another generation ..we are not worthy not the ones ...dashing their hopes
People have through all generations thought the world was going to end. This is nothing new under the sun. We think we live in the end times now just like people thought they did many moons ago. The fact is we do not know. We cannot put a time limit on his return. Nothing that I have read anywhere says that the 7 days of creation are symbolic of Christ coming back 7000 years later.(Christina;67666)
God in his wisdom sealed up the Book veiled the meaning to the previous Generations it was not intended to be understood until this Generation that would witness his return .. That my friend is us we are that chosen generation. The book has been opened to us ... Now if you chose to stay in the darkness of the previous generations ... Your choice you will not have less salvation because of it However sense you are that chosen generation God has given us the answers if you seek them out This verse is very important in that it not only explains many verses to us It literally tells us where we are in the appointed time of Gods timetable. It doesn't tell us just that Christ will return in a undetermined period of time ... but our time ...When knowledge increased ... our fore fathers did not have this increased knowledge they were not trying to mislead us ... they just were not meant to understand this key until now
You nor I not even the angels know when the Lord will return. This generation or not. It may very well be but we do not know for sure.