Was Noah “saved by grace through faith”?

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Stranger

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You said this...
“Therefore, God imputed righteousness to Abraham when his faith was directed toward the coming Saviour. Therefore, we can know that when we place faith in Jesus Christ, as God has told us to do, that at that time we too have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.”
So at first you said he directed his faith toward the coming savior but now you say it doesn’t matter what he believed. Did he believe in a coming savior or not ?
This means that it doesn’t matter what we believe either. That’s the logical conclusion to the argument you just made. Since we are to have the faith of Abraham, and what he believed didn’t matter then it doesn’t matter for us either.

I don’t just like gen 22 but I like how GOD sums up the life of Abraham.
Genesis‬ ‭26:4-5‬ “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
why is God going to do this? Because Abraham had “faith only” (in what he believed you say is immaterial) or is it more? Let’s see...
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
‭‭ ‭That’s God talking, not me. You CANNOT say Abraham was blessed because of “faith only”. God just spelled it out point blank.

I said 'his faith was directed toward the coming Saviour'. I said, 'how Abraham understood it is immaterial'. I never said it doesn't matter what he believed. God imputed righteousness to Abraham when his faith was based upon the promised Seed to come. It didn't matter how much Abraham understood that. The point is that God did not impute righteousness to Abraham until Abraham's faith was directed there.

What God has 'spelled out' is that righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until (Gen. 15:6). That's God talking. Not me.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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I will deal some more later with 191. But first. How does John 13 illustrate how being washed doesn’t pertain to baptism? Peter and the boys had already been baptized in water. Therefore were “washed” and “clean”. Why? Because Jesus taught baptism for the remission of sins. Nowhere in that passage is water excluded. How does Jesus “wash” someone today? Through baptism which he commanded!


You are correct, we must make the determination by context. In 1 cor 6, the context is clearly one of something already taking place. “Such WERE some of you BUT ye are (not will be) washed. Ye are (not will be) sanctified. Washing and the setting apart happen at the same time. Let’s look at the verse you are using.

Romans‬ ‭8:30‬ “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
‭‭‭There is clearly a progression in this passage. The foreknowing and predestinating clearly came way before the calling. Then the calling clearly came before the justifying. This same language is used in Rom 10....
Romans‬ ‭10:13-14 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

Again. There is clearly a progression here. You have to call to be saved. BUT how can you call without belief? How can you believe without hearing? These do not all happen at the same time. See the difference! The context will determine how the terms are being used, and you are not considering contextual language. Also...
In Heb 10 we see that they had been sanctified (past tense) by the blood of the covenant.
Here’s a basic bible principle....
Psalms‬ ‭4:3‬ “But know that the Lord hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him.”
‭This is the church under the new covenant. Those who have obeyed the gospel are set apart or sanctified for God and his work. This is why the lord adds to the church after baptism. (Not before). Acts 2:41,47.
So lets put it all together....
God foreknew and predestinated before the world began.
Then he called through the gospel. 2 thes 13,14.
Then after hearing the gospel call a person believes.
Then after hearing and believing they call on the name of the lord which includes baptism (acts 22:16).
Then after being washed they are sanctified and justified at the same moment in time. Their sins are washed away (justified). They are added to the body of Christ (sanctified).
It is all in perfect harmony. That is until you get ahold of it.


Heb 10:29 ties being sanctified to the blood. So how can you be cleansed by the blood but still not be sanctified? And yes we are glorified at the point of baptism. We have been made to walk in newness of life. Now, is there also a future bodily glorification? Yes. When Jesus returns.


You are teaching that Peter preached a different gospel and I would guess you believe that what he preached was different then Paul. But Paul said he preached “the faith” (the gospel) that he once destroyed. Gal 1:23
And we all know it was Peters preaching he tried to destroy.
Ephesians 4 tells us there is only one “faith” which is the gospel.

the only baptism that is commanded is water baptism so therefore the one baptism is water. It cannot be Spirit because Spirit was never commanded.

To be contd. I do t have enough time to deal with Paul. There is too much to say.

Well, I already showed you, so deal with post #(191) now.

Stranger
 

CNKW3

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Being born-again is the first part of your salvation. Yes you are now a new creature in Christ. Yes, you now begin your walk in newness of life. You are trying to use (Rom. 6:3-4) to mean water baptism. It does not. It is Spirit baptism. As I already showed you.
Here is your fabulous post 191...
The born again process includes water. Even reputable commentaries on John 3:5 concede that “water” is water baptism. The context of chapters 2 and 3 is about water baptism. John and Jesus were commanding it and the Pharisees wouldn’t do it. This is why Nicodemus came to Jesus by night.
Baptism is said to....
Remit sins......Acts 2:38
Save us.......Mk 16:16, 1 pet 3:21
Blott our sins.....acts 3:19
Wash away sins.....acts 22:16
Is how one calls on the name of the lord.....acts 22:16
How one gets into Christ.....rom 6, Gal 3, 1 Cor 1
How one is sanctified....Eph 5:26
Those who reject it are rejecting the counsel of god. Lk 7
Also
I have actually already dealt with Rom 6. Even my fifth grade son knows that a burial, a planting, a resurrection all resemble water baptism. Not Spirit baptism. To walk in newness of life is to be born again. And as I showed above, that process includes water. Water baptism. And I have shown above how baptism washes away, remits, blots out sin, and saves. This makes the convert a new creature. Nowhere is “faith alone” ever shown to do these things. If it did you would have a list of your own, but you don’t, and that’s because the Bible specifically says “faith alone” DOES NOT SAVE.
Deal with that!

(John 3:16-18) (John 6:29) (Gal. 3:26-27) These show that salvation is by faith alone and that one is in Christ the moment he believes. As do the many more Scriptures that teach one is born-again by faith alone.
There is no “faith alone” in John 3 :16. This comes right after John 3:5 which has salvation being based on water. Nice contradiction. Those who truly “believe” will obey. It is through their obedience they will then be baptized in order to remove their sins. John 3:36. To believe is to obey. There is no getting around that.
John 6:29? Faith is a “work of God”. Just like baptism....Col 2:11-13. When one is baptized it is God who works on the individual to circumcise them or cut away the sins of the flesh.
In baptism.... Man does nothing! God does everything!
Gal 3. Since I’ve shown that Rom 6 is water baptism then Gal 3 is as well since he is talking about the same thing....getting into Christ or into the body. 1 Cor 12:13

No. (Rom. 6:3-4) is Spirit baptism. This act of baptizing us by the Spirit into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection was always what water baptism pointed to. Water baptism did not do it. (Gal. 3:26-27) speaks to the same Spirit baptism. As does (1 Cor. 12:13). You really must learn to distinguish between water and Spirit baptism.
Everyone who was “baptized with the Spirit”. (The Spirit never baptized anybody, it was Christ doing the baptizing with the Spirit) received the miraculous! Nobody receives that today. This should be enough proof to show that you are wrong. Without the miraculous; how do you know you have received the Spirit of God? You don’t!!! You just make claims with no proof.
Distinguish?
Then show me throughout the NT everywhere we see water baptism?
and
How do you know that it is water baptism?
We know Christ commanded water baptism. When did he tell them to stop using water? Man cannot baptize with the Spirit. So, if man is involved it has to be water.
Concerning (Titus 3:5), just because the word 'washing' is used does not mean it is water baptism.
Doesn’t mean it is Spirit either. is the remission of sins a “washing of regeneration”? If not why not?
Is washing away of sins a “washing of regeneration”? If not why not?
Is newness of life (associated with baptism) a “washing of regeneration? If not why not?
Also, the washing in Titus 3:5 is separate from the HG. It is a “washing of regeneration” AND a renewing of the HG! These are not the same.

Our being saved is spoken as being a 'washing of regeneration'. A cleansing by God, not by our righteousness. No baptism water here.
wait a minute! This is in perfect harmony with Col 2:11-13 which tells us that it is God that does the work in baptism by cutting away the sins of the flesh with the circumcision made without hands.

(Eph. 5:26) speaks to the continual need and action of Christ in cleansing His Church. It speaks to our continual need to be cleansed, but not to our original cleansing given in (Titus 3:5). This is perfectly displayed in (John 13:6-10) No baptismal water here.

Stranger
Paul specifically told those in Ephesus.....they had been sanctified “through the washing of water”. Tell me this!....Were the Ephesians baptized in water? Yes or no? Since we all know they were (twice) doesn’t Paul’s statement make perfect since? They were never “baptized” with Spirit! We have evidence of that! They received the Spirit....not from Christ but through the laying on of Paul’s hands. This completely destroys your position. Because IF they had been “baptized by the Spirit” then Paul would not have had to lay hands on them. They were sanctified through “the washing of water” and then they received the Spirit through Paul. This is in perfect harmony with his letter. Also....he told the Ephesians....there is “one baptism”. We now know he meant water baptism because I just factually showed everyone that they were NEVER baptized by the Spirit because we have proof that they received the Spirit from Paul and not Christ. Paul baptized them IN WATER!
 

CNKW3

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I said 'his faith was directed toward the coming Saviour'. I said, 'how Abraham understood it is immaterial'. I never said it doesn't matter what he believed.
Again, there is NO MENTION OF A COMING SAVIOR in Gen 15:1-6. This IS NOT the topic of discussion. Abraham wanted kids and God promised he would have many offspring. He was speaking of the coming nation of Israel. All of whom were descendants of Abraham and Sarah.
So, All Abraham believed was that if God promised it, (many offspring) then he knew it would happen. That is it! There is no savior in that passage. That IS NOT what Abraham “believed”. You still have not shown any of us where the “savior’ is in that passage.
The word “seed” is used twice in this context. Is it used talking about a savior? No. Abraham tells God....you have given me NO SEED. No kids of his own, through Sarah.
Then God responds by saying your “seed”. (Offspring, not one savior) will be like the stars. (The nation of Israel).
HE DID NOT believe in a coming savior. You people just make stuff up left and right. This is a horrible example of adding to the word of God something that is not there which is strictly forbidden in all of scripture.
 

Stranger

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Here is your fabulous post 191...
The born again process includes water. Even reputable commentaries on John 3:5 concede that “water” is water baptism. The context of chapters 2 and 3 is about water baptism. John and Jesus were commanding it and the Pharisees wouldn’t do it. This is why Nicodemus came to Jesus by night.
Baptism is said to....
Remit sins......Acts 2:38
Save us.......Mk 16:16, 1 pet 3:21
Blott our sins.....acts 3:19
Wash away sins.....acts 22:16
Is how one calls on the name of the lord.....acts 22:16
How one gets into Christ.....rom 6, Gal 3, 1 Cor 1
How one is sanctified....Eph 5:26
Those who reject it are rejecting the counsel of god. Lk 7
Also
I have actually already dealt with Rom 6. Even my fifth grade son knows that a burial, a planting, a resurrection all resemble water baptism. Not Spirit baptism. To walk in newness of life is to be born again. And as I showed above, that process includes water. Water baptism. And I have shown above how baptism washes away, remits, blots out sin, and saves. This makes the convert a new creature. Nowhere is “faith alone” ever shown to do these things. If it did you would have a list of your own, but you don’t, and that’s because the Bible specifically says “faith alone” DOES NOT SAVE.
Deal with that!


There is no “faith alone” in John 3 :16. This comes right after John 3:5 which has salvation being based on water. Nice contradiction. Those who truly “believe” will obey. It is through their obedience they will then be baptized in order to remove their sins. John 3:36. To believe is to obey. There is no getting around that.
John 6:29? Faith is a “work of God”. Just like baptism....Col 2:11-13. When one is baptized it is God who works on the individual to circumcise them or cut away the sins of the flesh.
In baptism.... Man does nothing! God does everything!
Gal 3. Since I’ve shown that Rom 6 is water baptism then Gal 3 is as well since he is talking about the same thing....getting into Christ or into the body. 1 Cor 12:13


Everyone who was “baptized with the Spirit”. (The Spirit never baptized anybody, it was Christ doing the baptizing with the Spirit) received the miraculous! Nobody receives that today. This should be enough proof to show that you are wrong. Without the miraculous; how do you know you have received the Spirit of God? You don’t!!! You just make claims with no proof.
Distinguish?
Then show me throughout the NT everywhere we see water baptism?
and
How do you know that it is water baptism?
We know Christ commanded water baptism. When did he tell them to stop using water? Man cannot baptize with the Spirit. So, if man is involved it has to be water.

Doesn’t mean it is Spirit either. is the remission of sins a “washing of regeneration”? If not why not?
Is washing away of sins a “washing of regeneration”? If not why not?
Is newness of life (associated with baptism) a “washing of regeneration? If not why not?
Also, the washing in Titus 3:5 is separate from the HG. It is a “washing of regeneration” AND a renewing of the HG! These are not the same.


wait a minute! This is in perfect harmony with Col 2:11-13 which tells us that it is God that does the work in baptism by cutting away the sins of the flesh with the circumcision made without hands.

Paul specifically told those in Ephesus.....they had been sanctified “through the washing of water”. Tell me this!....Were the Ephesians baptized in water? Yes or no? Since we all know they were (twice) doesn’t Paul’s statement make perfect since? They were never “baptized” with Spirit! We have evidence of that! They received the Spirit....not from Christ but through the laying on of Paul’s hands. This completely destroys your position. Because IF they had been “baptized by the Spirit” then Paul would not have had to lay hands on them. They were sanctified through “the washing of water” and then they received the Spirit through Paul. This is in perfect harmony with his letter. Also....he told the Ephesians....there is “one baptism”. We now know he meant water baptism because I just factually showed everyone that they were NEVER baptized by the Spirit because we have proof that they received the Spirit from Paul and not Christ. Paul baptized them IN WATER!

No. You do not need to be water baptized to be born-again. I have explained already that water baptism is important in our salvation, but salvation does not always speak to just being born-again. You need to make those distinctions. And, just because the word 'wash' or 'cleanse' is used, doesn't mean it is always water baptism. (Eph. 5:26) is clear that water is the Word of God.

Thus, (John 3:5) is saying that man must be born of the Word and the Spirit. And that is the correct order. You hear the Word of God, you believe, the Spirit of God gives birth to your spirit. You are born-again. Then you should be water baptized. And, there is faith alone in (John 3:16) as nothing else is mentioned. "that whosoever believeth in him" See (18) "He that believeth on him is not condemned" See?....faith alone.

With your list, as I have said before, you just use water baptism any time washing or cleansing is involved or baptism is mentioned. You must distinguish between Spirit and water baptism.

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...." Seems pretty clear the Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.

We know the difference between Spirit and water baptism by how it is described. For example (Acts 8:37) Yes, I know man cannot produce Spirit baptism. That is why it comes by faith only.

The point of (Titus 3:5) and (Eph. 5:26) is that it is not a cleansing by water baptism but by the Word. Just because washing and cleansing are being described doesn't mean it is water baptism. Again see (John 13:6-10). No water baptism there.

(Col. 2:11-13) is not water baptism. It is the work of the Spirit placing us in Christ so that we are identified with His death, burial, and resurrection. All of which water baptism is a picture of.

(Eph. 5:26), yes, they were 'sanctified and cleansed with the washing of water by the word'. The Word is the cleansing agent here. Not water baptism. As to your other comments concerning the Ephesians, you will have to give me the verses you are alluding to.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Again, there is NO MENTION OF A COMING SAVIOR in Gen 15:1-6. This IS NOT the topic of discussion. Abraham wanted kids and God promised he would have many offspring. He was speaking of the coming nation of Israel. All of whom were descendants of Abraham and Sarah.
So, All Abraham believed was that if God promised it, (many offspring) then he knew it would happen. That is it! There is no savior in that passage. That IS NOT what Abraham “believed”. You still have not shown any of us where the “savior’ is in that passage.
The word “seed” is used twice in this context. Is it used talking about a savior? No. Abraham tells God....you have given me NO SEED. No kids of his own, through Sarah.
Then God responds by saying your “seed”. (Offspring, not one savior) will be like the stars. (The nation of Israel).
HE DID NOT believe in a coming savior. You people just make stuff up left and right. This is a horrible example of adding to the word of God something that is not there which is strictly forbidden in all of scripture.

It doesn't matter if it is mentioned in (Gen. 15). (Gal. 3:16) is clear that it is speaking to Christ. And, (Gen. 15:6) is clear that righteousness is imputed to Abraham when he could do nothing but believe. God is the One Who imputes. He does it when He wants to.

All the other instances where Abraham exercised his faith, doesn't matter. It is here that righteousness is imputed to him.

Stranger
 

CNKW3

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No. You do not need to be water baptized to be born-again. I have explained already that water baptism is important in our salvation, but salvation does not always speak to just being born-again. You need to make those distinctions. And, just because the word 'wash' or 'cleanse' is used, doesn't mean it is always water baptism. (Eph. 5:26) is clear that water is the Word of God.

Thus, (John 3:5) is saying that man must be born of the Word and the Spirit. And that is the correct order. You hear the Word of God, you believe, the Spirit of God gives birth to your spirit. You are born-again. Then you should be water baptized. And, there is faith alone in (John 3:16) as nothing else is mentioned. "that whosoever believeth in him" See (18) "He that believeth on him is not condemned" See?....faith alone.

With your list, as I have said before, you just use water baptism any time washing or cleansing is involved or baptism is mentioned. You must distinguish between Spirit and water baptism.

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...." Seems pretty clear the Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.

We know the difference between Spirit and water baptism by how it is described. For example (Acts 8:37) Yes, I know man cannot produce Spirit baptism. That is why it comes by faith only.

The point of (Titus 3:5) and (Eph. 5:26) is that it is not a cleansing by water baptism but by the Word. Just because washing and cleansing are being described doesn't mean it is water baptism. Again see (John 13:6-10). No water baptism there.

(Col. 2:11-13) is not water baptism. It is the work of the Spirit placing us in Christ so that we are identified with His death, burial, and resurrection. All of which water baptism is a picture of.

(Eph. 5:26), yes, they were 'sanctified and cleansed with the washing of water by the word'. The Word is the cleansing agent here. Not water baptism. As to your other comments concerning the Ephesians, you will have to give me the verses you are alluding to.

Stranger
Hahaha. This is fantastic and typical of those who teach false doctrine. You have a set of rules that I don’t get to play by. Nowhere do we find the words “faith alone” (except once in the negative) but you get to “assume” that the word “alone” is there. But with baptism you are saying you MUST see the word water (as in acts 8) every time in order for it to be water baptism. You don’t find the word Spirit attached to baptism either but again you get to play by your own rules and ASSUME it means Spirit, even after ALL the evidence I have given to what water baptism actually does. Like in 1 pet 3:21 where the Bible spells out that water baptism also “now saves us”. The word water is actually in that context. But you deny it.

Let’s deal with 1 Cor 12:13. For “by one Spirit” we are baptized into the body.
Let’s look at a passage a couple of chapters earlier....
1 Cor 7 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Now, does the law LITERALLY bind the wife? Or, is it through what the law teaches that she is bound?
pretty simple isn’t it?
Now, in the same way......is it the Spirit LITERALLY baptizing someone? Or is it through the teaching of the Spirit that a person comes to be baptized?
These are both written in the same language and in the same way.
How about Eph 5:26? Does the word LITERALLY wash someone? No! That’s absurd!
So, how does the word “wash”. It teaches one what to do in order to be “washed”. By submitting to baptism which actually “washes away your sin”.
The word, the law, and the Spirit all do the same thing......they instruct! We are then to be obedient. This is why God can say......Christ is the author of eternal salvation to ALL that OBEY him. Where do we get the instruction today? Through the word given by the Spirit!

John 13:6-10? You keep posting this as some proof text. There is no Spirit baptism in John 13:6-10. The disciples had already been baptized in water therefore were “clean”. How does this passage prove your point? You have given no explanation.

I asked for you to give me ALL the times in the NT that “baptism” is actually water baptism and the only passage you mention is Acts 8:37. IS THAT IT? Is that the ONLY time baptism, in the NT actually means water baptism? Really? Please enlighten us all so we can better know which passages speak of water and which speak of Spirit, because none of them mention “spirit” either. Are we thus to conclude that there is NO water baptism in all the NT except acts 8:37?

You are telling me that you have been baptized by the Spirit and you need me to give you verses about the Ephesians? Those who had the Spirit in the first century didn’t need that kind of help. This was the promise of John 14:26 but for some reason he skipped over you. Or just maybe you haven’t been baptized with the Spirit.
 

Steve Owen

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This idea of....”saved by grace through faith” is probably the most misunderstood teaching in the NT.
The fact is.....all people from Adam to now are saved the exact same way, “by grace through faith.” This is not some Pauline doctrine that didn’t exist before Christ. When we look at Noah we will see that what I’m saying is true.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
.....Noah received grace from God. What did grace do? Did it save him right then and there? No. Grace did what grace always does, it instructs.
Titus 2:11,12 tells us that grace has appeared to ALL men TEACHING us.
What did grace do for Noah? It gave him the way of salvation through building a boat. What does grace do for us today? It gives us the way of salvation through the preaching of the gospel (believe, repent, confess, be baptized for remission of sins)

Genesis 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
......Noah was obedient to the instruction given. As ludicrous and crazy as it must have sounded, Noah did it. And, what does the Bible call this? FAITH!

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
......So, God through grace provided the way and Noah by faith was obedient and therefore ultimately was “saved by grace through faith”! A person is NEVER “saved by grace through faith” through mental acceptance alone. NEVER! You can’t just lay on your bed, shed some tears, say a prayer, and walk out a child of God, accepted by him unto salvation. Why? Because grace NEVER instructed anybody to do that for salvation.
I only just caught up with this thread. Good post!
Faith always involves doing something (Hebrews 11). I wonder if you've considered an aspect of Genesis 6:14. The Hebrew word translated 'pitch' here is kaphar. Only here in the O.T. is it translated as 'pitch' and 70 times it is rendered 'make atonement.' It's natural meaning is cover, so a better translation would be 'cover it with covering.' No doubt the ark required a coating with pitch, asphalt or bitumen, but that is not the meaning here. Noah must have sacrificed one or more clean animals and daubed the ark with their blood. It is the blood that makes atonement (Heb. kaphar) for the soul' (Leviticus 17:11). When the waves of God's righteous anger against sin burst upon Noah's world, nothing could withstand them. But when they came to the ark, the blood shielded it and those within it. 'When I see the blood I will pass over you.' 'Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.' The blood spoke of the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'
 

Stranger

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Hahaha. This is fantastic and typical of those who teach false doctrine. You have a set of rules that I don’t get to play by. Nowhere do we find the words “faith alone” (except once in the negative) but you get to “assume” that the word “alone” is there. But with baptism you are saying you MUST see the word water (as in acts 8) every time in order for it to be water baptism. You don’t find the word Spirit attached to baptism either but again you get to play by your own rules and ASSUME it means Spirit, even after ALL the evidence I have given to what water baptism actually does. Like in 1 pet 3:21 where the Bible spells out that water baptism also “now saves us”. The word water is actually in that context. But you deny it.

Let’s deal with 1 Cor 12:13. For “by one Spirit” we are baptized into the body.
Let’s look at a passage a couple of chapters earlier....
1 Cor 7 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Now, does the law LITERALLY bind the wife? Or, is it through what the law teaches that she is bound?
pretty simple isn’t it?
Now, in the same way......is it the Spirit LITERALLY baptizing someone? Or is it through the teaching of the Spirit that a person comes to be baptized?
These are both written in the same language and in the same way.
How about Eph 5:26? Does the word LITERALLY wash someone? No! That’s absurd!
So, how does the word “wash”. It teaches one what to do in order to be “washed”. By submitting to baptism which actually “washes away your sin”.
The word, the law, and the Spirit all do the same thing......they instruct! We are then to be obedient. This is why God can say......Christ is the author of eternal salvation to ALL that OBEY him. Where do we get the instruction today? Through the word given by the Spirit!

John 13:6-10? You keep posting this as some proof text. There is no Spirit baptism in John 13:6-10. The disciples had already been baptized in water therefore were “clean”. How does this passage prove your point? You have given no explanation.

I asked for you to give me ALL the times in the NT that “baptism” is actually water baptism and the only passage you mention is Acts 8:37. IS THAT IT? Is that the ONLY time baptism, in the NT actually means water baptism? Really? Please enlighten us all so we can better know which passages speak of water and which speak of Spirit, because none of them mention “spirit” either. Are we thus to conclude that there is NO water baptism in all the NT except acts 8:37?

You are telling me that you have been baptized by the Spirit and you need me to give you verses about the Ephesians? Those who had the Spirit in the first century didn’t need that kind of help. This was the promise of John 14:26 but for some reason he skipped over you. Or just maybe you haven’t been baptized with the Spirit.

I don't deny (1 Peter 3:21). It speaks to water baptism. Which "in a figure" saves us. Remember too what I said about salvation. It is not always the act of being born-again. Water baptism in a figure saves us, giving us a good conscience toward God. It is important in our walk of salvation. Not needed to be born-again. With water baptism I need to know it is water baptism that is being addressed.

Yes, we are literally baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...." Spirit baptism.

(John 13:6-10) was given to show you that just because the act of 'washing' and 'cleansing are used does not mean it is water baptism. As I said, it is a perfect picture of our 'washing of regeneration' in (Titus 3:5) and our being cleansed by the Word in (Eph. 5:26).

No, I'm not going to give you a list of water baptism in the Bible. Since you like list's, go ahead and make one yourself. You're free to conclude whatever you like.

You were saying several things concerning the book of (Ephesians). I need to know the exact verses you are alluding to.

Stranger
 

CNKW3

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It doesn't matter if it is mentioned in (Gen. 15). (Gal. 3:16) is clear that it is speaking to Christ. And, (Gen. 15:6) is clear that righteousness is imputed to Abraham when he could do nothing but believe. God is the One Who imputes. He does it when He wants to.

All the other instances where Abraham exercised his faith, doesn't matter. It is here that righteousness is imputed to him.

Stranger
Of course it does! What you are now saying is words within a context do not matter. You can now place whatever meaning you want to whatever passage you choose! You call that Bible study? That's purely corrupt. That should disqualify you as having any Bible knowledge since you just said words within a context do not matter.
So, "God is the one who imputes"? Lets check your consistency.
In the NT, at what point does God say sins are removed? It is at baptism! Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16 God said it, I didn't.

Also, when it comes to Abraham, you are not considering all of what the Bible has to say on the subject. The Bible is its own best commentary and how does it explain Gen 15:6?
Ja 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled? After obedience. Could he have been "righteous" without obedience? NO!
The Bible says.....The SUM of thy word is truth. Not just the passages you like to the exclusion of other explanation passages.
People today ARE NOT deemed righteous before their sins are removed. The reason they are considered righteous is because their sins have been removed.
Rom 4: 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered
.
Sins today ARE NOT removed at the point of belief. If so, feel free to show all the passages of all the examples of people having sins removed at the point of belief before they ever did anything. I'll help. You wont find any!
 

CNKW3

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I don't deny (1 Peter 3:21). It speaks to water baptism. Which "in a figure" saves us. Remember too what I said about salvation. It is not always the act of being born-again. Water baptism in a figure saves us, giving us a good conscience toward God. It is important in our walk of salvation. Not needed to be born-again. With water baptism I need to know it is water baptism that is being addressed.

Yes, we are literally baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...." Spirit baptism.

(John 13:6-10) was given to show you that just because the act of 'washing' and 'cleansing are used does not mean it is water baptism. As I said, it is a perfect picture of our 'washing of regeneration' in (Titus 3:5) and our being cleansed by the Word in (Eph. 5:26).

No, I'm not going to give you a list of water baptism in the Bible. Since you like list's, go ahead and make one yourself. You're free to conclude whatever you like.

You were saying several things concerning the book of (Ephesians). I need to know the exact verses you are alluding to.

Stranger
So now one can be "saved" without being "born again"? That's made up because that is not what the Bible teaches. Jn 3:3-5

In John 15:3 Jesus told his apostles.....you are clean through the word I have spoken to you.
How was that? Because they had been obedient to his message. It is exactly the same today. Do you want to be clean? then you must obey! Just "believing" wont do it. There were those in John 12 who just "believed" and they were not clean. This is what this whole OP is about "obedience".

You say that I do not understand the word baptism and its meaning in the NT, well you are doing nothing to help me or anybody else understand. I asked you to cover the meaning of the numerous times the word baptism is used and you said NO!.
So...
Is mark 16:16 water baptism? explain.
Is mt 28 water baptism? explain
Is acts 2:38 water baptism? explain
Is water baptism a part of acts 3:19? explain
Is acts 8 with Samaria, Simon, and the Eunuch water baptism? explain
Is Acts 10 water baptism?
Is Lydia acts 16 water baptized? explain
Was the jailor acts 16 water baptized?
Were the Corinthians Acts 18 water baptized?
Were the Ephesians in Acts 19 water baptized?
Is acts 22:16 water baptism? if not why not?
So, If these accounts can be shown to be water baptism, and then Paul later writes these people letters speaking of baptism, is it reasonable to believe he is speaking of WATER? If not why not?
And where are ALL the instances and examples of the above being baptized by the HS? Where are they? If this is the baptism of salvation, then where are all the examples?
 

Stranger

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Of course it does! What you are now saying is words within a context do not matter. You can now place whatever meaning you want to whatever passage you choose! You call that Bible study? That's purely corrupt. That should disqualify you as having any Bible knowledge since you just said words within a context do not matter.
So, "God is the one who imputes"? Lets check your consistency.
In the NT, at what point does God say sins are removed? It is at baptism! Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16 God said it, I didn't.

Also, when it comes to Abraham, you are not considering all of what the Bible has to say on the subject. The Bible is its own best commentary and how does it explain Gen 15:6?
Ja 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled? After obedience. Could he have been "righteous" without obedience? NO!
The Bible says.....The SUM of thy word is truth. Not just the passages you like to the exclusion of other explanation passages.
People today ARE NOT deemed righteous before their sins are removed. The reason they are considered righteous is because their sins have been removed.
Rom 4: 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered
.
Sins today ARE NOT removed at the point of belief. If so, feel free to show all the passages of all the examples of people having sins removed at the point of belief before they ever did anything. I'll help. You wont find any!

Scripture is clear that Abraham was declared righteous in (Gen. 15:6) Abraham's obedience in the sacrifice of Isaac was a fulfillment of that. That doesn't change the fact that Abraham was declared righteous by God in (Gen. 15:6). That is the whole point of imputation. You are declared what you are not really. Abraham's conduct later would reflect what God had already declared him to be.

Concerning (Acts 2:38), this was directed to the Jews. (2:22) (2:36) They had not yet been obedient to the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was Repent and be baptized. Plus they crucified their Messiah. Now their baptism would be, not to enter the Kingdom Christ was offering, but for the remission of sins. That is what water baptism pictured. (1 Peter 3:21) "the like figure"

(Acts 3:19) doesn't mention water baptism. And Peter is still talking to these same Jews. (Acts 3:14-15) He is addressing a future time when Israel will turn to Christ. "...when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" (3:19)

Concerning (Acts 22:16). Paul's baptism washed away his sins just as Peter described. (1 Peter 3:21) " The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Stranger
 

Stranger

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So now one can be "saved" without being "born again"? That's made up because that is not what the Bible teaches. Jn 3:3-5

In John 15:3 Jesus told his apostles.....you are clean through the word I have spoken to you.
How was that? Because they had been obedient to his message. It is exactly the same today. Do you want to be clean? then you must obey! Just "believing" wont do it. There were those in John 12 who just "believed" and they were not clean. This is what this whole OP is about "obedience".

You say that I do not understand the word baptism and its meaning in the NT, well you are doing nothing to help me or anybody else understand. I asked you to cover the meaning of the numerous times the word baptism is used and you said NO!.
So...
Is mark 16:16 water baptism? explain.
Is mt 28 water baptism? explain
Is acts 2:38 water baptism? explain
Is water baptism a part of acts 3:19? explain
Is acts 8 with Samaria, Simon, and the Eunuch water baptism? explain
Is Acts 10 water baptism?
Is Lydia acts 16 water baptized? explain
Was the jailor acts 16 water baptized?
Were the Corinthians Acts 18 water baptized?
Were the Ephesians in Acts 19 water baptized?
Is acts 22:16 water baptism? if not why not?
So, If these accounts can be shown to be water baptism, and then Paul later writes these people letters speaking of baptism, is it reasonable to believe he is speaking of WATER? If not why not?
And where are ALL the instances and examples of the above being baptized by the HS? Where are they? If this is the baptism of salvation, then where are all the examples?

I didn't say one can be saved without being born-again.

Oh!...is that what this thread is about? Obedience? Obey and be saved for the forgiveness of sins. That whosoever obeys Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that obeys Him is not condemned. See (John 3:16-18) Don't you wish Jesus knew as much about His salvation as you do?

(Mark 16:16) is water baptism. Which it is why baptism not included in Christ's statement, "but he that believeth not shall be damned".
(Matt. 28:19) is water baptism. No explanation needed.
(Acts 2:38) is water baptism. Already explained.
(Acts 3:19) doesn't mention water baptism. Already explained.
(Acts 8:13) is water baptism. Simon believed first. Then later baptized Same with the Eunuch. (Acts 8:36-38)
(Acts 10:47-48) is water baptism. Cornelius and his men were already believers and had the Holy Spirit. Then baptized.
(Acts 16:14-15) is water baptism. Lydia believed and was then water baptized.
(Acts 16:28-33) is water baptism. The jailer believed first and was then baptized.
(Acts 19:1-6) is water baptism. The disciples of John were already believers. The distinction was in the two baptism's.
(Acts 22:16) is water baptism. Already explained.

Spirit baptism--(Rom. 6:3-4) (Col. 2:12) (1 Cor. 12:13)

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CNKW3

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I didn't say one can be saved without being born-again.

Oh!...is that what this thread is about? Obedience? Obey and be saved for the forgiveness of sins. That whosoever obeys Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that obeys Him is not condemned. See (John 3:16-18) Don't you wish Jesus knew as much about His salvation as you do?

(Mark 16:16) is water baptism. Which it is why baptism not included in Christ's statement, "but he that believeth not shall be damned".
(Matt. 28:19) is water baptism. No explanation needed.
(Acts 2:38) is water baptism. Already explained.
(Acts 3:19) doesn't mention water baptism. Already explained.
(Acts 8:13) is water baptism. Simon believed first. Then later baptized Same with the Eunuch. (Acts 8:36-38)
(Acts 10:47-48) is water baptism. Cornelius and his men were already believers and had the Holy Spirit. Then baptized.
(Acts 16:14-15) is water baptism. Lydia believed and was then water baptized.
(Acts 16:28-33) is water baptism. The jailer believed first and was then baptized.
(Acts 19:1-6) is water baptism. The disciples of John were already believers. The distinction was in the two baptism's.
(Acts 22:16) is water baptism. Already explained.

Spirit baptism--(Rom. 6:3-4) (Col. 2:12) (1 Cor. 12:13)

Stranger
You said this...."Remember too what I said about salvation. It is not always the act of being born-again"
If salvation is "not always the act of being born again" then according to you one can be "born again" and still not be saved. Or, one can be "saved" but not be "born again". This is what you are saying. Why are you always denying your own words?

Jesus said...He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
(Acts 8:13) is water baptism. Simon believed first. Then later baptized Same with the Eunuch. (Acts 8:36-38)
When was he saved? according to Jesus

(Acts 10:47-48) is water baptism. Cornelius and his men were already believers and had the Holy Spirit. Then baptized.
when was he saved? According to Jesus.

(Acts 16:14-15) is water baptism. Lydia believed and was then water baptized.
when was she saved? According to Jesus

(Acts 16:28-33) is water baptism. The jailer believed first and was then baptized.
when was he saved? According to Jesus.
You seem to know more about Jesus salvation then he does!

If all of those are water baptism, then where are all the examples of Spirit baptism? I cant believe that something so important would be left out of all the conversion accounts given to us in the book of Acts? And if Cornelius is your example then where is your miraculous ability? Also, why would Paul baptize all these people in water and then not write about it? You have him only writing about something we have no examples of in the book of Acts.

and yes Jesus did say.....
jn 3:36 He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
and yes the Bible continues that very thought....
he 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
You act as if none of this is in the Bible.
 

Stranger

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You said this...."Remember too what I said about salvation. It is not always the act of being born-again"
If salvation is "not always the act of being born again" then according to you one can be "born again" and still not be saved. Or, one can be "saved" but not be "born again". This is what you are saying. Why are you always denying your own words?

Jesus said...He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
(Acts 8:13) is water baptism. Simon believed first. Then later baptized Same with the Eunuch. (Acts 8:36-38)
When was he saved? according to Jesus

(Acts 10:47-48) is water baptism. Cornelius and his men were already believers and had the Holy Spirit. Then baptized.
when was he saved? According to Jesus.

(Acts 16:14-15) is water baptism. Lydia believed and was then water baptized.
when was she saved? According to Jesus

(Acts 16:28-33) is water baptism. The jailer believed first and was then baptized.
when was he saved? According to Jesus.
You seem to know more about Jesus salvation then he does!

If all of those are water baptism, then where are all the examples of Spirit baptism? I cant believe that something so important would be left out of all the conversion accounts given to us in the book of Acts? And if Cornelius is your example then where is your miraculous ability? Also, why would Paul baptize all these people in water and then not write about it? You have him only writing about something we have no examples of in the book of Acts.

and yes Jesus did say.....
jn 3:36 He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
and yes the Bible continues that very thought....
he 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
You act as if none of this is in the Bible.

Again, that is not what I said. Salvation begins with being born-again. Salvation is not always the act of being born-again. Salvation entails ones walk after he is born-again. Salvation includes ones glorification which is yet future.

(Acts 8:12-13) is clear. Belief was first. Then baptism. They were saved when they believed according to Jesus. (John 3:15-18)

(Acts 10:47-48) is clear. Belief was first. Then baptism. They were saved when they believed according to Jesus. (John 3:15-18)

(Acts 16:28-33) is clear. Belief was first. Then baptism. They were saved whtn they belileved according to Jesus. (John 3:15-18)

What a perversion of Scripture you present. (John 3:36) "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The obedience of faith is not obedience to Law. (Rom. 1:5) (Rom. 16:26)

Oh, it is in the Bible. You just misunderstand it.

Stranger