Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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BreadOfLife

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The claim is made the thief was never baptized. What verse definitively states the thief was never baptized? Until that verse is produced the whole argument is based on assumption.

Babies that die are not lost for they have no sin. All are born innocent and without sin, original sin is a man made idea.
Wrong.

Original Sin is a stain we are ALL marked with. If it weren’t – Christ wouldn’t have had to come down and sacrifice His very self. The evidence of this our flawed condition as humans - and death.


Rom. 5:12-21 sums this up

Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, AND THUS DEATH CAME TO ALL, INASMUCH AS ALL SINNED— for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

BUT DEATH REIGNED FROM ADAM TO MOSES, EVEN OVER THOSE WHO DID NOT SIN AFTER THE PATTERN OF THE TRESPASS OF ADAM, WHO IS THE TYPE OF THE ONE WHO WAS TO COME.

Grace and Life through Christ.
But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many.

And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal.

For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ.

In conclusion, JUST AS THROUGH ONE TRANSGRESSION CONDEMNATION CAME UPON ALL, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.

For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.

The law entered in so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Here, Paul explains Original Sin better than anybody else. ALL were condemed because of Adam's sin.
 

BreadOfLife

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God cannot lie nor does God change. When God requires baptism in His word that is truth (John 17:17) but then does not require baptism that would be a change, a lie.
WRONG.
And this is proved by verses like John 21:21-23 and Exod. 33:19.

God's will have mercy on WHOMEVER He wills - not who YOU think He should.
 

BreadOfLife

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Hello BreadOfLife,

I am glad to hear that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God that saves. However, I believe that the good works you have listed though they should accompany salvation, are not a requisite for salvation itself: which is simply a matter of believing God's Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

* You have referenced Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, and 1 Peter 3:21 regarding what you perceive to be the necessity of baptism as an act of obedience which should accompany faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, What did the ceremonial act of baptism signify? Certainly it proved that the one being baptised believed the message they had received, but during the Acts period it was also accompanied by the receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit, which separated them for service. That baptism therefore fulfilled the same function as that of the 'washings' of the Old Testament, in that it identified the believer as God's servant, having been endowed for service, by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

* The 'One Baptism' of Ephesians 4, which we are to 'keep', as part of, 'the unity of the Spirit', is of the Spirit: and takes place when faith enters (Ephesians 4:4-5; Colossians 2:11-13; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; Galatians 3:27 ); for the believer puts on Christ (Gal. 3:27).

* What does it mean to put on Christ? This is obviously a figure of speech, and figures of speech are used to enhance truth: so here, the believer has put on Christ by believing God's Word concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, and acknowledged Him as His Saviour and Lord; in doing so he becomes one with Christ. Romans 6:3-4. also illustrates this spiritual baptism, in which we are identified with Christ, for having died with Him, and been buried with Him, we are quickened and raised with Him to walk in newness of life: separated unto Him, and unto good works. No water is involved, no ceremonial action for the flesh to glory in, all is of the Spirit.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sorry but you’re wrong.

Baptism FAR transcends the washings of the OT. This is explicitly mentioned in the prophecy concerning Baptism in Ezek. 36:25-27 where Baptism is described as giving the recipient a new heart and a new spirit, causing us to receive the Holy spirit and walk in His statutes.

Additionally - 1 Pet. 3:21, he specifically states that Baptism SAVES us and that it is NOT a washing for removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is why Paul refers to Baptism as “circumcision of the heart” Rom. 2:29) and the “circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:12-17).

Finally – this is why Jesus describes Baptism as being reborn of WATER and SPIRIT (John 3:5).
 

BreadOfLife

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Prove me wrong. It is no sweat off my back. The bottom line is this, movie or no movie.....The language of Christ is clear, VERILY , VERILY, TRULY, TRULY, A TIMELESS TRUTH I TELL YOU. NO ONE SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVE UNLESS HE BE BORN OF BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT. Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Given His own words, and how the Prophet Isaiah explains how God's word goes out like the rain and the snow and waters the earth to make it bud and bring forth FRUIT, so does His WORD come back to Him prosperous . Take it or leave it . And if movies are more in keeping with Christ's word then you, well......it is what it is, JUST SAYING.

No matter how you turn it, the scales weigh heavily in my favor in upholding what the UNCHANGING LORD SAID. I do not need your approval as to what TRUTH is , I have Christ's personally. And as I said my view and understanding, without a doubt is in close keeping with who Christ is than yours. PERIOD! And twist all you want, Christ speaks timeless truth= that time will not change, which all unfortunate circumstance take place in-IN TIME. I know nothing is impossible with God according to and within HIS OWN WORDS and HE HIMSELF baptized that THIEF HIMSELF ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PROMISES which verily, verily and TRULY , TRULY MEANS. You think like a man, you DO NOT HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST!

Isaiah 55:8-9 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And the way of the Lord is to FULFILL ALL HIS PROMISES . PERIOD!

11so My word that proceeds from My mouth

will not return to Me empty,

but it will accomplish what I please,

and it will prosper where I send it
For you to deny that the Lord would uphold His own Standard is to call the Lord a hypocrite and a liar . That, to uphold your father before Christ's own words. Clearly we know who your father is.
You not only favor your denomination and that includes its lies, over all other denominations ,you prefer it over Christ's Truth.
James 2:9-10
A Warning against Favoritism
…9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

I am guilty of nothing but you MOST CERTAINLY ARE.

Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Matthew 24:35
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

You can deny His words all you want, that is on you not Him. You seem to have a problem believing He would uphold His own Truth and do for victims of circumstance what no one else can do for them or what they cannot do for themselves. THAT IS ,HE IN KEEPING WITH HIS OWN PROMISES, DID BAPTIZE THE SAINTS IN THEIR GRAVES AND THE THIEF AND ALL VICTIMS OF CIRCUMSTANCE HIMSELF.

THE WORD OF THE LORD ,THANKS BE TO GOD! From everlasting to everlasting you are God Lord and your Mercy endures forever!
I don’t need to prove you wrong because you are presenting an idea that has absolutely ZERO basis in Scripture OR Tradition.
The onus is on YOU to prove YOUR position – not for ME to go chasing fairy tales.

You have concocted a false doctrine based on the unfortunate circumstance of havioong watched “Ben-Hur” pone too many times.
NOWHERE does Scripture ever mention a “rain storm” after the Crucifixion. NEITHER is this ever mentioned in Oral Tradition.

Moreover – EVERY single person from the OT who was bound for Heaven would have had to risen up from their graves that day. That’s NOT what Scripture says. It only says that “many” holy people were raised I Jerusalem. Besides - NOT all of God’s people died in Jerusalem.

A little advice: Don’t let Hollywood form your doctrines . . .
 

CovenantPromise

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I don’t need to prove you wrong because you are presenting an idea that has absolutely ZERO basis in Scripture OR Tradition.
The onus is on YOU to prove YOUR position – not for ME to go chasing fairy tales.

You have concocted a false doctrine based on the unfortunate circumstance of havioong watched “Ben-Hur” pone too many times.
NOWHERE does Scripture ever mention a “rain storm” after the Crucifixion. NEITHER is this ever mentioned in Oral Tradition.

Moreover – EVERY single person from the OT who was bound for Heaven would have had to risen up from their graves that day. That’s NOT what Scripture says. It only says that “many” holy people were raised I Jerusalem. Besides - NOT all of God’s people died in Jerusalem.

A little advice: Don’t let Hollywood form your doctrines . . .
Okay, did I say every saint, NOOOO. Did I say who did rise,NOOOOO, at least not by name . And the only thing you put forth is your opinion which you have ZERO scriptural support for. I am not intimidated by the boogey men, but by the Holy Spirit of which you have not spoken in. You simply deny what the Holy Spirit in me clearly pointed out about the Character of the Lord. Isaiah said what he was given to say.And Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever. Your big bold words are as about as authoritative as the phallic symbol (obelisk ) in Rome. You are simply a symbol of impotency of men's intellect. "My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are not your thoughts". Carry on!
 

BreadOfLife

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Okay, did I say every saint, NOOOO. Did I say who did rise,NOOOOO, at least not by name . And the only thing you put forth is your opinion which you have ZERO scriptural support for. I am not intimidated by the boogey men, but by the Holy Spirit of which you have not spoken in. You simply deny what the Holy Spirit in me clearly pointed out about the Character of the Lord. Isaiah said what he was given to say.And Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever. Your big bold words are as about as authoritative as the phallic symbol (obelisk ) in Rome. You are simply a symbol of impotency of men's intellect. "My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are not your thoughts". Carry on!
Never claimed that MY words were authoritative - and neither are YOURS.
The words of Christ's Church, however ARE (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

As for the obelisk in St. Peter's Square - it always strikes me as comical when an ignorant anti-Catholic like yourself point this out.
Do you even understand WHY its there?? I didn't think so. Allow me to educate you . . .

Pay close attention to the CROSS at the top. It symbolizes the ultimate Victory of Christ over paganism . . .

37d0c7_5835d874002948e6b358be294ac47d8b~mv2_d_2799_3493_s_4_2.jpg


There ends the lesson for the day.
 

charity

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Sorry but you’re wrong.

Baptism FAR transcends the washings of the OT. This is explicitly mentioned in the prophecy concerning Baptism in Ezek. 36:25-27 where Baptism is described as giving the recipient a new heart and a new spirit, causing us to receive the Holy spirit and walk in His statutes.

Additionally - 1 Pet. 3:21, he specifically states that Baptism SAVES us and that it is NOT a washing for removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is why Paul refers to Baptism as “circumcision of the heart” Rom. 2:29) and the “circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:12-17).

Finally – this is why Jesus describes Baptism as being reborn of WATER and SPIRIT (John 3:5).
'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:
from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.'

(Ezekiel 36:25-27)

Hello @BreadOfLife,

With respect to you, the words (above) that you quoted, were spoken to Israel as a nation, and not to you or I. I thank you for your further references, and your thoughts concerning them, but we are not in agreement.

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
.. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
.... Which sometime were disobedient,
...... when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
........ while the ark was a preparing,
.......... wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
.. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
.... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
...... Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
........ angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.'

(1 Peter 3:18-22)

* Thank you for your further references to 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 2:29 and Colossians 2:12-17.

* Regarding 1 Peter 3:21, and the example given of Noah, and the ark, in which he and his family were saved from the flood waters: it was not the water that saved Noah from the judgement of God in the waters of the flood, but the ark within which he sheltered: built at God's instruction for his salvation and that of all those who would obey God's call; and accept his offer of salvation by entering into it. Noah was saved because he believed God's message, and not by the waters of the flood.

* Looking at the context of 1 Peter 3, and not only the words of 1 Peter 3:21 is vital to understanding what Peter means by the words, 'The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us --- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:' - it is the resurrection of Christ which saves, not the waters of baptism. Baptism whether by water or by spirit, identifies the believer with the truth of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ which He has believed. It is God which has placed Him, 'in Christ' (1 Corinthians 1:30), thus saving him from judgement.

* Baptism is the response of a good conscience towards God, by one who has believed His Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and received the forgiveness of sin through faith in His atoning blood.

* Identification with Christ: with His death, burial, quickening and resurrection is what baptism symbolises: and this is performed by the Holy Spirit in the believer the moment he believes, when he is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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CovenantPromise

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Never claimed that MY words were authoritative - and neither are YOURS.
The words of Christ's Church, however ARE (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

As for the obelisk in St. Peter's Square - it always strikes me as comical when an ignorant anti-Catholic like yourself point this out.
Do you even understand WHY its there?? I didn't think so. Allow me to educate you . . .

Pay close attention to the CROSS at the top. It symbolizes the ultimate Victory of Christ over paganism . . .

37d0c7_5835d874002948e6b358be294ac47d8b~mv2_d_2799_3493_s_4_2.jpg


There ends the lesson for the day.

The words which proceed from me are AUTHORITATIVE because they are the only ones backed up by scriptures - THE AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD left to us. You have nothing to support what you hold to, PERIOD! You wish you had the authority to teach me something. Again you are clueless GOD hates phallic symbols.
Now school is in session .You will learn when the VATICAN became the Whore-Harlot of Babylon:

Forbidden Forms of Worship
Deuteronomy 16:
21Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole next to the altar you will build for the LORD your God, 22and do not set up for yourselves a sacred pillar, which the LORD your God hates.

The Obelisk
repositioned by Fontana, Sep 10, 1586





Obelisk-02-a.jpg

The Obelisk from Egypt was brought to Rome by Emperor Caligula in 37 AD. It originally stood in his circus on a spot to the south of the basilica, close to the present Sacristy.
From 'St. Peter's - Guide to the Basilica and Square'
A large pink granite obelisk can be admired in the center of the square. It was hewn from a single block and stands 25.31 m. high on a base 8.25 m. wide. The obelisk which comes from Heliopolis, Egypt, where it was built by the Pharaoh Mencares in 1835 BC in honor of the sun, was brought to Rome in 37 BC by the Emperor Caligula (37-41) and erected in the circus he built. Here it was silent witness of the martyrdom of St. Peter and of many other Christians. In 1586 Sixtus V had it moved to the center of St. Peter's Square. This operation, which required hundreds of workmen, was directed by Domenico Fontana with the help of his brother, Giovanni, and took four months. It was erected on September 10, 1586 by 900 men using 140 horses and 44 winches.

HERE'S THE KICKER:
FROM SEMINARIAN'S GUIDE:
Obelisk is from obeliscus - "in the shape of a spear" (NO! IT IS AS IT ALWAYS WAS , A PHALLIC SYMBOL. DENIAL DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT IT HAS ALWAYS REPRESENTED THROUGHOUT CULTURES IN HISTORY and what it represented in Egypt, being placed in "Peter's" Square does not change it.).

For pagans, the obelisk was a solar symbol that represented a vital flow between heaven and earth, a way of communicating to the divine.
This is a bunch of BUNK! "In the shape of a spear
clear.png
". It is a PHALLIC SYMBOL, that PAGAN men erect not only as a Sun dial , but to declare to all ,the PHYSICAL strength=power through flesh(NOTHING DIVINE) of their nations THEY ALSO WORSHIPED THE SUN, DUH!. Don't you love how carnal men have taken over and set themselves up over the true members of the Body in Christ in Rome as a replacement for Christ?

AGAIN! What did God say in Deuteronomy 16:?
21Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole next to the altar you will build for the LORD your God, 22and do not set up for yourselves a sacred pillar, which the LORD your God hates.

Now you will begin to see the Harlot, and when did she begin to emerge???
ACCORDING TO THE SEMINARIAN'S GUIDE:
As a pagan monument in the greatest Christian square, it is a symbol of humanity reaching out to Christ ( YEAH WITH A PHALLIC SYMBOL). Originally inscribed to "Divine Augustus" and "Divine Tiberius" and now dedicated to the Holy Cross
rolleyes.png
- "Christus Vincit, Christus Regnat, Christus Imperat. Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat." It is topped by a bronze cross containing a fragment of the true Cross.
Sixtus V had Domenico Fontana move it in 1586 to the center of St. Peter's Square. (O BOYA! men are sooo vain).

It is also a sun dial, its shadows mark noon over the signs of the zodiac in the white marble disks in the paving of the square. The obelisk rests upon four couchant lions, each with two bodies whose tails intertwine.

Construction of the present basilica, which would replace Old St. Peter's Basilica from the 4th century AD, began on 18 April 1506 and was completed on 18 November 1626.

History of St Peter's Basilica in Rome
In 306 AD, Emperor Constantine became the first Christian emperor of Rome. He decided to erect a basilica on Vatican Hill at the supposed location of St. Peter's tomb. Construction started in 319 AD and was completed around 349 AD.
CORRECTION: Constantine did not become a Christian until on his death bed when he finally decided to get baptized. All believer's /followers of Christ are to be baptized upon belief in Christ. He neither had a Holy fire one nor water (until on his death bed). That is not how that works. This is not according to God's commands.And he was not the thief on the cross, he knew about Christ and enough about Christianity during his life to get right with God then. Then conveniently, at his death he though he would try and climb in under the radar (AS IF HE COULD) and get into heaven. PLEEEEASE , that is NOT how that works.

John 10:1Jesus the Good Shepherd
1“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.…
He did not enter the sheepfold. He did not practice Christianity. He used the name Christianity , because he saw how Christianity was taking hold of Rome and that there was no stopping its growth. Not even martyrdom could stop it. He up to his death entertained the god's of Rome too. And he is not sanctified through his mother. Constantine had two wives (THAT IS NOT CHRISTIAN and shows he used the title Christian but was never baptized into it during HIS LIFE MEANING ENTERED THE FOLD.) santan is smarter than your average Joe and can influence all of those but he is not sharper than the Elect!

The church established by both Peter and Paul in Rome- (aka Church in Babylon) became a Harlot when Constantine got involved. When was that? When the construction started in 319AD on the FIRST basilica of "St Peter". As soon as men's governments got involved with the church of Rome, she became the Harlot.

When did Peter and Paul begin to build up a member(part) of the Body of Christ in Rome?
the exact date is not clear concerning arrival, but Peter's death is recorded and is to be around (died 64 ce), in Rome. So the phallic symbol only represents men's constant influence OVER the Christian body . I bet you thought I was going to conclude with , it was in Sep 10, 1586 that the harlot body started to take over the Roman church? No! The harlot spirit got to work early on! Each stupid step points to the increase in power of the Harlot. Which is now at its pinnacle.
 
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BreadOfLife

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The words which proceed from me are AUTHORITATIVE because they are the only ones backed up by scriptures - THE AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD left to us. You have nothing to support what you hold to, PERIOD! You wish you had the authority to teach me something. Again you are clueless GOD hates phallic symbols.
Now school is in session .You will learn when the VATICAN became the Whore-Harlot of Babylon:

Forbidden Forms of Worship
Deuteronomy 16:
21Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole next to the altar you will build for the LORD your God, 22and do not set up for yourselves a sacred pillar, which the LORD your God hates.

The Obelisk
repositioned by Fontana, Sep 10, 1586





Obelisk-02-a.jpg

The Obelisk from Egypt was brought to Rome by Emperor Caligula in 37 AD. It originally stood in his circus on a spot to the south of the basilica, close to the present Sacristy.
From 'St. Peter's - Guide to the Basilica and Square'
A large pink granite obelisk can be admired in the center of the square. It was hewn from a single block and stands 25.31 m. high on a base 8.25 m. wide. The obelisk which comes from Heliopolis, Egypt, where it was built by the Pharaoh Mencares in 1835 BC in honor of the sun, was brought to Rome in 37 BC by the Emperor Caligula (37-41) and erected in the circus he built. Here it was silent witness of the martyrdom of St. Peter and of many other Christians. In 1586 Sixtus V had it moved to the center of St. Peter's Square. This operation, which required hundreds of workmen, was directed by Domenico Fontana with the help of his brother, Giovanni, and took four months. It was erected on September 10, 1586 by 900 men using 140 horses and 44 winches.

HERE'S THE KICKER:
FROM SEMINARIAN'S GUIDE:
Obelisk is from obeliscus - "in the shape of a spear" (NO! IT IS AS IT ALWAYS WAS , A PHALLIC SYMBOL. DENIAL DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT IT HAS ALWAYS REPRESENTED THROUGHOUT CULTURES IN HISTORY and what it represented in Egypt, being placed in "Peter's" Square does not change it.).

For pagans, the obelisk was a solar symbol that represented a vital flow between heaven and earth, a way of communicating to the divine.
This is a bunch of BUNK! "In the shape of a spear
clear.png
". It is a PHALLIC SYMBOL, that PAGAN men erect not only as a Sun dial , but to declare to all ,the PHYSICAL strength=power through flesh(NOTHING DIVINE) of their nations THEY ALSO WORSHIPED THE SUN, DUH!. Don't you love how carnal men have taken over and set themselves up over the true members of the Body in Christ in Rome as a replacement for Christ?

AGAIN! What did God say in Deuteronomy 16:?
21Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole next to the altar you will build for the LORD your God, 22and do not set up for yourselves a sacred pillar, which the LORD your God hates.

Now you will begin to see the Harlot, and when did she begin to emerge???
ACCORDING TO THE SEMINARIAN'S GUIDE:
As a pagan monument in the greatest Christian square, it is a symbol of humanity reaching out to Christ ( YEAH WITH A PHALLIC SYMBOL). Originally inscribed to "Divine Augustus" and "Divine Tiberius" and now dedicated to the Holy Cross
rolleyes.png
- "Christus Vincit, Christus Regnat, Christus Imperat. Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat." It is topped by a bronze cross containing a fragment of the true Cross.
Sixtus V had Domenico Fontana move it in 1586 to the center of St. Peter's Square. (O BOYA! men are sooo vain).

It is also a sun dial, its shadows mark noon over the signs of the zodiac in the white marble disks in the paving of the square. The obelisk rests upon four couchant lions, each with two bodies whose tails intertwine.

Construction of the present basilica, which would replace Old St. Peter's Basilica from the 4th century AD, began on 18 April 1506 and was completed on 18 November 1626.

History of St Peter's Basilica in Rome
In 306 AD, Emperor Constantine became the first Christian emperor of Rome. He decided to erect a basilica on Vatican Hill at the supposed location of St. Peter's tomb. Construction started in 319 AD and was completed around 349 AD.
CORRECTION: Constantine did not become a Christian until on his death bed when he finally decided to get baptized. All believer's /followers of Christ are to be baptized upon belief in Christ. He neither had a Holy fire one nor water (until on his death bed). That is not how that works. This is not according to God's commands.And he was not the thief on the cross, he knew about Christ and enough about Christianity during his life to get right with God then. Then conveniently, at his death he though he would try and climb in under the radar (AS IF HE COULD) and get into heaven. PLEEEEASE , that is NOT how that works.

John 10:1Jesus the Good Shepherd
1“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.…
He did not enter the sheepfold. He did not practice Christianity. He used the name Christianity , because he saw how Christianity was taking hold of Rome and that there was no stopping its growth. Not even martyrdom could stop it. He up to his death entertained the god's of Rome too. And he is not sanctified through his mother. Constantine had two wives (THAT IS NOT CHRISTIAN and shows he used the title Christian but was never baptized into it during HIS LIFE MEANING ENTERED THE FOLD.) santan is smarter than your average Joe and can influence all of those but he is not sharper than the Elect!

The church established by both Peter and Paul in Rome- (aka Church in Babylon) became a Harlot when Constantine got involved. When was that? When the construction started in 319AD on the FIRST basilica of "St Peter". As soon as men's governments got involved with the church of Rome, she became the Harlot.

When did Peter and Paul begin to build up a member(part) of the Body of Christ in Rome?
the exact date is not clear concerning arrival, but Peter's death is recorded and is to be around (died 64 ce), in Rome. So the phallic symbol only represents men's constant influence OVER the Christian body . I bet you thought I was going to conclude with , it was in Sep 10, 1586 that the harlot body started to take over the Roman church? No! The harlot spirit got to work early on! Each stupid step points to the increase in power of the Harlot. Which is now at its pinnacle.
WOW.
It’s really difficult to imagine how so much abject ignorance and blindness can be packed into ONE single human being . .

As I sated before the cross at the top of the obelisk in St. Peter’s Square says it ALL:
Victory of Christ over ALL paganism.
This is akin to one nation planting its flag over the capitol of an enemy nation.

The passage you posted from Deuteronomy was about setting up pagan symbols next to ALTARS in the OT. It was about pagan worship, Einstein.

As for your idiotic remarks about the “Baptizing rain” that came down on the Thief being “authoritative” and “Scriptural” – I’ve already proven that they’re NOT. You simply got this image from the movie “Ben-Hur” one too many times.

So, my advice once again is: A little LESS Hollywood and a little MORE God . . .
 

CovenantPromise

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WOW.
It’s really difficult to imagine how so much abject ignorance and blindness can be packed into ONE single human being . .

As I sated before the cross at the top of the obelisk in St. Peter’s Square says it ALL:
Victory of Christ
over ALL paganism.
This is akin to one nation planting its flag over the capitol of an enemy nation.

The passage you posted from Deuteronomy was about setting up pagan symbols next to ALTARS in the OT. It was about pagan worship, Einstein.

As for your idiotic remarks about the “Baptizing rain” that came down on the Thief being “authoritative” and “Scriptural” – I’ve already proven that they’re NOT. You simply got this image from the movie “Ben-Hur” one too many times.

So, my advice once again is: A little LESS Hollywood and a little MORE God . . .
Whatever pagan!
 

BreadOfLife

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'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:
from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.'

(Ezekiel 36:25-27)

Hello @BreadOfLife,

With respect to you, the words (above) that you quoted, were spoken to Israel as a nation, and not to you or I. I thank you for your further references, and your thoughts concerning them, but we are not in agreement.

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
.. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
.... Which sometime were disobedient,
...... when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
........ while the ark was a preparing,
.......... wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
.. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
.... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
...... Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
........ angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.'

(1 Peter 3:18-22)

* Thank you for your further references to 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 2:29 and Colossians 2:12-17.

* Regarding 1 Peter 3:21, and the example given of Noah, and the ark, in which he and his family were saved from the flood waters: it was not the water that saved Noah from the judgement of God in the waters of the flood, but the ark within which he sheltered: built at God's instruction for his salvation and that of all those who would obey God's call; and accept his offer of salvation by entering into it. Noah was saved because he believed God's message, and not by the waters of the flood.

* Looking at the context of 1 Peter 3, and not only the words of 1 Peter 3:21 is vital to understanding what Peter means by the words, 'The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us --- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:' - it is the resurrection of Christ which saves, not the waters of baptism. Baptism whether by water or by spirit, identifies the believer with the truth of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ which He has believed. It is God which has placed Him, 'in Christ' (1 Corinthians 1:30), thus saving him from judgement.

* Baptism is the response of a good conscience towards God, by one who has believed His Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and received the forgiveness of sin through faith in His atoning blood.

* Identification with Christ: with His death, burial, quickening and resurrection is what baptism symbolises: and this is performed by the Holy Spirit in the believer the moment he believes, when he is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
There is nothing “magical” or powerful about water. It is simply the means by which God forgives us and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Then Jesus healed the Blind Man – he used mud made from dirt and saliva. Did he NEED to use mud? Was it the mud that cured the man? NO. The mud was simply the means that He used. God, more than anybody understands that we are a physical people with tangible needs. He chose to use water to convey this sacrament. He could just as easily have used mud or oatmeal – or nothing at all.

As 1 Pet. 3:21 says – Noah wasn’t saved BY water – he was saved THROUGH water.
It is the same for the Baptized person. It’s not water that saves us – but it is through water that we are saved.

As for Ezek. 36:25-27 – it is absolutely a prophecy about Baptism because it explains the effects of Baptism exactly the way Peter (1 Pet. 3:21, Acts 2:38) and Paul (Col. 2:11-15) do.
 

charity

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It's a yes or no question.
Are you saying that baptism is only for the Jews?
'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.'

(Mark 16:16)

Hello @Getitright,

This thread asks a question, 'Is water baptism necessary for salvation?'

Your response referred to Mark 16:16a. as a proof text that baptism was a necessary requirement for salvation. On the basis of this I endeavoured to point out that the context of the statement in that verse needed to be taken into consideration, before concluding that this was indeed justifiably a proof text in support of that.

I cannot divorce your question to me, from the context of that verse: for in relation to that verse, by Whom it was spoken? to whom? at what time? and with what intent? I conclude that this instruction was to the twelve, whose ministry was to the Jew, that it was baptism in water that it referred to, and was fulfilled during the acts period.

During that period Jews and Gentiles were baptised in water, and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. At the end of the Acts period, Divine revelation was given to Paul, and revealed in his later epistles, in which one baptism only is spoken of, and that is baptism of the spirit (Ephesians 4), which is the experience of every believer, who is sealed by the Holy Spirit when faith enters and he is born from above.

* No yes or no answer possible I'm afraid, at least not from me.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

CovenantPromise

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you learn that from your priest or mary ?
Both and all the prophets . What is obvious here, with many people, not all in here, is all the evidence with scripture can not prove acceptable . So , I ask myself, is it because it is a misapplication of the scriptures by me. So I go back and reread everything and pray and look again. Not one person, has with the glorious Word of God , disproved one word I said. BOL's only defense to his claim is when God told Moses "I show mercy to whom I want". But he post this , thinking that means, God does not show that mercy to whom He wants according to His own standard that He set forth. It is like , well......not even like , BOL actually calls God a hypocrite and a liar. He actually thinks that the Lord would two step and change His mind and would not extend His MERCY to whomever He wishes according to the Promise He has vowed and made before us and to us.

I approach at first sensibly , then get blasted with insults, for that sensible approach. Then I become indignant toward sin and have to tear it up. The only thing that I can say I have done is unite the jezebel and harlot minded in a united front. They, coming from two isles protestant (NOT ALL) and Catholic (NOT ALL) . But then I go is this really even a Christian forum? Because clearly my sums align with the equations of God's word. I need NO convincing of that. But it seems that 1 of 2 things is at play here.Either ,there is an agenda and there is a majority minded group that actually heads all this and are trying to dismantle Christianity or I have given way too much credence to this forum?