Eternal Security

(RichardBurger;67687)
That is a downright lie. I never said what you have indicated. What I have said is that God keeps His children by His own power, not theirs. They will not lose their faith in God. They will not stop believing. They will not lose their trust in God. They will not lose their confidence in Him. --- So your saying I have said we can do all the things you indicated in your reply is not true and I think you owe me an apology.Richard
You know Richard that's funny, because I know Christians, Christians who were my greatest friends, who have lost their faith in God, who have stopped believing, who have lost their trust in God, and who have lost their confidence in him.So please don't tell me that christians can't fall away, because I know its not true. Please don't think I'm trying to trample beliefs you shape your whole life around just for my entertainmentI go against them, "because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" ( 1 peter 5:8)I love you too much too see you fall.your brother in christRyan Fitz

2 Peter 1:5-11 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith(A) with virtue,[a] and virtue( with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control© with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness(D) with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection(E) with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or(F) unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he(G) is blind, having forgotten that he was(H) cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[c] be all the more diligent to make your calling and(I) election sure, for if you practice these qualities(J) you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you(K) an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So the question is. What if we do not make an effort to add to our faith? Why did Peter tell us to make the effort? Peter is telling us we must press forward so that we will make are calling and election sure. For if we do not we are not sured the welcome into the eternal kingdom.

I essentially agree with once saved always saved. However not necessarily with the way you tell it.(RichardBurger;67515)
Others believe you cannot know if you are truly saved until the end (death). This is also an inadequate view of what salvation is and how it is received. The subject of knowing now that you are saved is really called the assurance of salvation. The assurance (security) of salvation will be clear if we understand the following points.
I wish the person who wrote this really expanded on this thought. Not just claimed something and didn't back it up with anything. Like you said we are saved by the grace of God through our faith. God knows our hearts however we do not know his. Essentially it is God's choice if one receives eternal life or not. John 16:8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. ( I thought there was another verse on Satan already being judged. I cannot locate it so if anyone would be as so kind to look it up for me.)Satan is the only one to have been judged. We have not been saved/judged yet. Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.We haven't been judged yet. Once a person is judged and they receive eternal life by the grace of God...then yes I would have to agree that person is saved and always will be.(RichardBurger;67515)
Salvation is an event, not a process. Salvation takes place in an instant of time (the moment that a person trusts Christ as Savior)
Remember you said we are saved by the grace of God. Not the moment that a person trusts Christ as savior.(RichardBurger;67515)
For the believer, death and judgment are past. Our sins are gone, just as if we had died (which we did in Christ), and that everlasting penalty has been paid for us. When the Bible says that our sins are forgiven and remitted, it is on the basis of this truth: the substitutionary death of Christ.
Death and judgment are not past if one still lives. The fact remains no one has been judged yet.Hebrew 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgmentRichardBurger;67515)
THE BELIEVER AND SINBut what about when the believer sins? When a believer does sin, it is an issue between him and God his Father. It is a family issue; it involves service not salvation. Salvation is complete and secure. From that time the Christian life is a matter of an eternal loving relationship with the Father (of growth and tender care of grace and, yes, even discipline) "until the redemption of the purchased possession..." Will we have to answer for sins committed as believers? Yes. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:10 that we must answer for the things done in the body whether they be good or bad. But this involves rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation. We refer the reader to chapter 10, The Believer's Walk, for a further discussion of the believer and sin.(SNIP)
No where in that verse is Paul talking about rewards or loss thereof. Salvation is not complete and secure until God gives us the gift of eternal life. Until that time it is unknown and if we are so fortunate to receive the gift of eternal life then yes we are saved and saved forever.

RichardWe have not been judged, not been sealed, all we have is a promise he will never leave us not forsake us ...But we can leave and forsake him your doctrine is a man made lie. There is only one judgement day and it has not occured yetNo one is judged except Satan until the White throne judgement at the End of the millenium ..but you keep lying to your self if you it makes you feel better ... And I was telling people what your doctrine means ...You can deny it but its true. Funny you can accuse us but how dare we say what your doctrine really is??Without all the holy sounding words you add ..My example may have been over the top but take out your words and that's exactly what is You just don't like the sound of it when you take away the bells and whistles ....

(RichardBurger;67721)
(Christina;67720)
RichardWe have not been judged, not been sealed, all we have is a promise he will never leave us not forsake us ...But we can leave and forsake him your doctrine is a man made lie. There is only one judgement day and it has not occured yetNo one is judged except Satan until the White throne judgement at the End of the millenium ..but you keep lying to your self if you it makes you feel better ... And I was telling people what your doctrine means ...You can deny it but its true. Funny you can accuse us but how dare we say what your doctrine really is??Without all the holy sounding words you add ..My example may have been over the top but take out your words and that's exactly what is You just don't like the sound of it when you take away the bells and whistles ....
So you say we have not been sealed. That is a direct contradiction to the word of God.2 Cor 1:20-2220 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. NKJVSorry but I just can't seem to believe what you say and the above is just one of the reasons. There are many more.RichardI think you should go to a milk site. You will be more comfortable there w/ people believing in this cockypot doctrine of men! Everybody seem to knows that your fruit is not of Christ... Get this evil doctrine out of here. You ignored pretty much at least ½ of the NT message. Sad to say, but it's true.

Well I admit thats was my mistake Richard I didnt clarify that very well we are sealed but not permantly yet we have a deposit on our promise ...We can stil chose to leave him 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’sNow why dont you tell us when we were judged..(quote)Sorry but I just can't seem to believe what you say and the above is just one of the reasons. There are many moreDitto !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Revelation 7:2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east [sun rising], having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea."The angel from the east is the angel from God. You have heard of the Seal, or the "Mark of the Beast"; well, this angel is bringing the seal, or "mark of God." This seal from the angel is "Knowledge". It is sealed, or stored in your mind, which is in your forehead. No physical part of this earth, or oceans will be hurt. The subject here is the sealing of God's elect; placing knowledge of everything that is to happen in the minds of God's elect and all those overcomers, so there will be no mystery in these events to them. When we know exactly what is to take place, Satan will not be inviting; for upon his arrival, we will know him for the cheap imitation he is, in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."Notice it is not done yet Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Is'-ra-el." This seal has nothing to do with going to heaven; but it is the full knowledge of How to stand against the wiles of Satan the Antichrist. This has to take place before the "son of perdition" [Satan] sets his feet on this earth as the Antichrist. You will know how to identify Satan, from the true Christ, or you will be deceived by the Antichrist and become part of his system. Satan is that good, and the Word of God declares it before the fact.

(RichardBurger;67730)
...We seem to have another disagreement. I believe in the rapture of those saved under grace ....Richard
We will disagree here also Rich. But the rapture has been talked about many times on this forum. Type "rapture" into the "search" box above and you can read all about it, I'm not going to rehash it.

(RichardBurger;67730)
I do not agree with you. If we are not sealed, PERMANENTLY, then that would indicate God's seal is not very strong.We seem to have another disagreement. I believe in the rapture of those saved under grace and have been made His (God's) children by God. God's wrath will not be poured out on His children. Obviously you don't believe as I do. The children of God "in Christ" have already been judged in Christ and are righteous before God. He is our righteousness. There can be no judgement for those that are already righteous.Richard
And you are confused do to your doctrine of men And if you believe in a Pre trib Rapture that isnt written you will be lost anyway another whimp doctrine of men that God never promises ... Its called a theroy because thats what it is ... Boy between your thinking God is going magically stop you from doing wrong and your magic fly away doctrine ... You are in trouble And you are wrong I dont believe Gods wrath is poured out on Gods children and he told us in Passover how he would save us with the Lambs blood on the door post the Angel of death will passover us ...this is our test tribulation we must overcome to make it to the End, to become the first resurrectedHe is our lamb and his blood will protect us but then that requires true faith to believe not some mans fly away doctrine ...God never says he is flying anyone anyywhere ..and tell me Richard sense flesh and blood can not enter heaven... and Satan is prince of the air where pray tell do you think you are flying away to ??????????

Hey I just remembered, I found this letter, a couple months back when looking up this subject, and I thought it would be a great thing to post.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the letter you faxed to me in response to my letter. I am reading your book slowly and carefully. There is a great deal to think about as I read. Before reading your book I thought there was nothing more for me to learn on the subject of OSAS [once saved always saved]. I used to belong to an Independent Baptist Church that preached the truth of OSAS. I once accepted this false teaching as truth. It was not until I heard a traveling evangelist teach that OSAS is a false doctrine that I even began to think about the subject. After hearing this man’s message I felt an intense urgency to know the truth about OSAS. I had such a strong desire to know the truth that I became almost obsessed with my need to know with certainty whether or not OSAS was true. I wouldn’t be satisfied with anything less than 100% confidence that this doctrine was either true or false. I decided to begin my study by reading every word of the Bible from beginning to end and taking notes on any verse that seemed to be even remotely related to the subject. After doing this I decided I should read some of the OSAS books to see if they had any insights that would be helpful. My study lasted for about 3 years. My study lasted this long because I could not be satisfied until I was absolutely certain about the truth of this doctrine. I have to admit that I desperately wanted OSAS to be true. My mind was totally biased in favor of OSAS. However, I never allowed my biases to stop me from honestly evaluating what the Bible taught on this subject. What I found was astounding. The Bible constantly used words like “IF.” I was unable to find even one shred of evidence that OSAS was true. Almost as amazing was the way the OSAS teachers distorted Bible passages to fit into the OSAS teaching. I found their distortions so unfounded and false that I could not even begin to comprehend how they could interpret passages the way they did. The answers to my prayers and the end of my mental torment came in a single day. I don’t know if it was God opening my eyes or a result of my study but after 3 years of study and agonizing uncertainty on this subject all of my false ideas about OSAS were swept away. I became absolutely certain that according to the teachings of Jesus and all of the apostles, OSAS was absolutely and totally false. I no longer had even the slightest doubt that it was completely false. As I began to talk to people who believed in OSAS I began to realize that none of them have even given the subject any real thought. Their ideas and explanations are shallow and without thought. I once asked a Baptist who had a position of authority this question: If a person is saved but then two years later they 1. Reject Jesus Christ 2. Become a Satan worshipper 3. Commit sins worse than Adolph Hitler 4. Live this way for the next 50 years 5. They go to their grave blaspheming God and declaring their hatred for Him and also declare their love and loyalty to Satan. I asked if they thought this hypothetical person was still saved and their answer was yes they are still saved. I knew then that the OSAS teachers have rejected all aspects of Biblical thinking. The Baptist Church I belonged to took a vote and I was unanimously voted out of fellowship for the heretical belief that a Christian can fall away and be eternally lost. I am at the point now where I find the OSAS teaching so repulsive that I cannot even listen to an OSAS teacher no matter what they are talking about. Everything they say is tainted by their OSAS doctrine. Additionally, because they do not believe the Christian is in a real battle, they are more like game show hosts who are trying to keep their audience entertained and interested in their show. Without the realization that we are in a real battle for our souls there is no incentive to take the Christian life seriously. Because no matter what they do they think in the end they’ll be in heaven. This deception greatly troubles me. Sin is more deadly and more deceptive then most Christians even begin to understand. Sin deludes our thinking. Sin can make us imagine that we really aren’t straying that far from Jesus. To me this is the most dangerous aspect of OSAS. If we do not think we can fall away then our fear of sin will be greatly diminished. Once our fear of sin is diminished we can be easily led down a path that takes us further and further away from God. Sin will keep us from seeing how far off the path we have gone. We will of course be aware of the fact we have gotten off the path but we will not be afraid because we think we can’t lose our salvation. Sin will delude us into thinking that we have only strayed a little when in fact we are being systematically led further and further away from God and the truth. This deadly two punch combination of (1) No fear of falling away to our eternal destruction; and (2) The deceptive power of sin leading us further and further away from God will lead us so far away from God and harden our hearts so much that eventually we have very little chance of ever repenting and getting back on the narrow road that leads to eternal life. We will have rejected Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet continue to think we are still Christians on our way to heaven. All of this makes me very sad. People that I know who honestly love God and sincerely want to follow Jesus have been disarmed by this false teaching. They don’t know there is a real battle going on. Without knowing there is a real battle going on it makes Satan’s job 1000 times easier. At some point in their life sin may tempt them. When this happens it will be so much easier for them to succumb to it. Many Christians sincerely desire to live a Godly life. However, we also live in the flesh so will always face temptation. Understanding the dangers of allowing sin to come into our life is essential to keeping the flesh under control. When we do not fear sin the Holy Spirit is unable to convict us of sin and the need to repent. At a weak moment in our life sin can grab us and slowly lead us further and further away from God. Sadly, we probably won’t even know that this is happening because we have shut down the Holy Spirit’s ability to convict us of our sin and the need to repent and get back on the right path. Thank you again for your book and your encouragement. I am learning a great deal from your book. I did not think there was anyone who understood this subject better than I do. But I am glad that God led me to you. You have taken my understanding of OSAS to a new level. I am gaining so many new insights about OSAS from your book. I also feel like I am not alone. It is a blessing to know there are others who understand this vital truth. Thank you so much for everything you are doing. You have been a great blessing to me. Sincerely, Jeff S. [url="http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm]www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm[/url]

great article LGF I spaced it to make it alittle easier to read hope you dont mind ....

(Christina;67739)
great article LGF I spaced it to make it alittle easier to read hope you dont mind ....
Yes it was a great article. It just makes me sad to here so many Christians to careless of what God is saying is because they allow themselves to be disarmed by men.