SHOULD THE CHURCH TODAY BE CALLED NEW TESTAMENT

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Mungo

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Hi Mungo,

I guess I don't really make this connection, just the same, thank you for your post. I've read it several times, I think a couple more are in order.

Much love!
Hi marks,

What do you make of the two quotes from Isaiah?
 

marks

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Hi marks,

What do you make of the two quotes from Isaiah?

Isaiah 42
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 49
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

It seems in both passages the prophet tells us that the Messiah will be given "a covenant of the people", and also, "a light to the gentiles".

I notice that different wording is used here.

In Isaiah 49:6,

"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

It's like He's saying, raising up the tribes of Jacob, and restoring the preserved of Israel is one thing, and there is also giving "thee for a light to the Gentiles."

Then He says, I will preserve thee, and give thee a covenant of the people, to establish the earth. In that He says, to establish the earth, it could be seen as a covenant of the people and a light to the gentiles being one and same. Or it could be understood in Paul's words, what will their restoration mean but life from the dead?

All the world benefits from the salvation of Israel.

Something else I'm thinking about reading these is in the expression, "a covenant of people", I ask, who are the "people"?

All the world? Or should I be reading this as, the people, and the gentiles?

Again . . . still considering these things . . .

Much love!
 

n2thelight

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The church, the body of Christ, should not technically call itself a new testament church.

First of all the new testament should be viewed as being distinct from the old and new covenants.

The new covenant was made only with the house of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31). The new covenant promised Israel and Judah that God will, by His Spirit, write His law in their hearts; by His Spirit, enable them to keep His law, and be a light to the Gentiles (Jeremiah 31:31-34 Ezekiel 36:24-28 Matthew 5:14 Isaiah 60:3). The new covenant will be fulfilled in the future.

The new testament is given to Israel as well. Jesus died and shed his blood to redeem Israel; for the redemption of their transgressions that were under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15-18 Matthew 26:28 Mark 14:24). The new testament was put into force upon his death (Hebrews 9:17), while the new covenant has yet to be fulfilled.

Paul is a minister of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6); a minister of the new testament, not the new covenant. Paul expounds the spiritual blessings, the spititual benefits, of the new testament, given to the body of Christ; the blessings and eternal salvation, which are bestowed, by the cross of Christ. The new testament blood of Christ, has also been applied to His body, the church (Romans 3:25 Romans 4:25 Romans 8:16 1 Corinthians 2:12 1 Corinthians 12:13 Philippians 3:3).

That Jesus would die for the sins of Israel was in prophecy (Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31 Isaiah 53 Psalm 16:10); that his death and shed blood would also be applied to Gentiles and the body of Christ was kept secret until revealed to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Ephesians 3:2-6).

The fact that the shed blood of Jesus was for the new testament (Luke 22:20); for the redemption of Israel's transgressions that were under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15), makes calling the church today new testament dubious. If the church today considers itself new testament it can lead to the error that it was redeemed by the blood of Christ to "receive the promise of eternal inheritance" promised Israel (Hebrews 9:15). The only church that could be called new testament would be the church comprised of those who received Jesus as Messiah, the Son of God (John 1:12 John 20:31) and believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23) which promised entrance into the Davidic kingdom on earth (2 Peter 1:11).

Who is Israel?Dang sure ain't that nation who don't believe in Christ!!!
 

Davy

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OK . . . reading the replies, not the popular view!

:eek:

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I mean, right off the bat, this says that it will be a covenant with the "house of Israel, and with the house of Judah". I know a lot of people have the view that the church is the Israel in the Bible. Does that extend to a "spiritual Judah"? I've never heard something like that. Does the Bible teach that Christians are Judah?

It seems to me that when I read about Israel and Judah in the Bible, it's about the northern and southern kingdoms, that is, the people of the promised land.

Something else that jumps out at me, as we all disagree over so much, "they shall all know me", I have to ask, how well? Like we do now? Yikes!

Thinking more about this Israel with whom God makes His covenant, it seems further delineated by "in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt". "Which my covenant they brake", all about the people who were slaves in Egypt, and brought out to the promised land.

Thoughts?

Much love!

Doug's doctrine is coming from the Hyper-Dispensationalist movement and the pre-trib rapture. Their agenda is to separate God's Israel from Christ's Church. This is why they don't want to apply any seeming idea of a covenant promised Israel to Christ's Church.
 

Doug

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Covenant and Testament are the same thing.
You are being misled by using an inconsistent translation by the KJV.
You say Jer 31:31 prophesied a new covenant. Yes he did.
Heb 8:8-10 recounts that prophesy:
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. The word translated covenant in each case is diatheke (G 1242).

It's the same word that the KJV translates as testament in Lk 22:20, Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24 and 1Cor 11:25).
Good translations consistently translate them as covenant.

The KJV shows it's inconsistency in Heb 9.
verse 1 says "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."
But then vs 18 says "Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood."

Again vs 20 has Moses saying "This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you".
But in Ex 24:8 Moses says "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you"

The new covenant is not for the Jews some time in the future. It is here and now for all people.

The KJV is the preserved word of God.
 

Doug

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Jer 31
31 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32a not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
32b my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord.

I've broken vs 31 into two because I want to make a point about the two parts separately.

"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"
This could be taken to mean with the Jews alone but there is another way of looking at it.

What, or who, is the house of Israel and the house of Judah?
I think the answer is the king.
In 2Sam 12:8 the Lord (via Nathan) says to David "I..... gave you the house of Israel and of Judah..."
The king represents in himself the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Now who became the King?
Who was promised the throne of David?
Answer: Jesus: "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end.
” (Lk 1:32-33).
Jesus himself is the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah.

"not like the covenant which I made with their fathers"
How will this covenant be different?

In Isaiah, God speaks about the coming Messiah in several "Servant" passages
Is 42:6-7 I have given you as a covenant to the people, a light to the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness. This is very similar to what Jesus says about himself in Lk 4:18
and

Is 49:8 I have kept you and given you as a covenant to the people,
The Servant, the Messiah will be given as a covenant. This new covenant will be a living person.
Jesus is a living embodiment of the Covenant
And note he is to be a "light to the nations". He is not just for the Jews.

"my covenant which they broke"

The Mosaic/Sinai Covenant could be, and was, broken. But if Jesus is the embodiment of the Covenant it can never be broken. That is why it is an everlasting covenant .
God says to Ezekial (and note this is long after David is dead)
My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes. They shall dwell in the land where your fathers dwelt that I gave to my servant Jacob; they and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there for ever; and David my servant shall be their prince for ever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them (Ez 37:24-26).

Anyone can come into this Covenant. Since the Covenant is Christ, if we are "in Christ", a phrase Paul used often, we are in the Covenant.

Baptism is how we become "in Christ.".
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).
In baptism we clothe ourselves with Christ.
This is being saved and also being part of the body of Christ
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor 12:12-13).
Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).

Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant
“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The covenant is for Israel alone.
 

Davy

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Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The covenant is for Israel alone.

No, it's not for Israel alone. They must believe on Jesus Christ as Saviour in order for that to happen (see end of Zech.12). Many of Israel today have already believed and make up part of Christ's Church. The main body of unbelievers Paul was pointing to are the Jews. The majority of them still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah. God put a spiritual stupor upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (lost "house of Israel" among them). When Jesus returns, that blindness will be removed, and then they will know the truth about Jesus and the majority of them will believe. But not all of them will. And their belief will be counted as the same faith as those of Christ's Church, their becoming joined with Christ's Church.
 

Doug

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No, it's not for Israel alone. They must believe on Jesus Christ as Saviour in order for that to happen (see end of Zech.12). Many of Israel today have already believed and make up part of Christ's Church. The main body of unbelievers Paul was pointing to are the Jews. The majority of them still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah. God put a spiritual stupor upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (lost "house of Israel" among them). When Jesus returns, that blindness will be removed, and then they will know the truth about Jesus and the majority of them will believe. But not all of them will. And their belief will be counted as the same faith as those of Christ's Church, their becoming joined with Christ's Church.

Yes believing Israel will be saved as stated in Zechariah 12:10.
They will not be joined to the body of Christ, but will be in the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ (Revelation 5:10 Revelation 20:4).
 

Davy

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Yes believing Israel will be saved as stated in Zechariah 12:10.
They will not be joined to the body of Christ, but will be in the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ (Revelation 5:10 Revelation 20:4).

They will... be joined with the body of Christ. Like Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 5 all believers inherit together...

Gal 4:28
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


You are listening to men's leaven with the idea they will have a separate kingdom. That's what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors teach, which began to be taught in Churches in 1830's Great Britain (research Edward Irving Church and John Nelson Darby).
 

Doug

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They will... be joined with the body of Christ. Like Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 5 all believers inherit together...

Gal 4:28
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


You are listening to men's leaven with the idea they will have a separate kingdom. That's what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors teach, which began to be taught in Churches in 1830's Great Britain (research Edward Irving Church and John Nelson Darby).

These verses do not say that believing Israel will be joined to the body of Christ.

Just because Galatians 4:28 says we are the children of promise does not mean we get the same promises. The point was freedom from the law found in the promise.

Galatians 3 is speaking of being in Christ and heirs with him.
 

Davy

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These verses do not say that believing Israel will be joined to the body of Christ.

Well, yes it does. The idea of Christ's Church being "as Isaac was, are the children of promise", is emphatic by Apostle Paul that Christ's Church has inherited the promise to Isaac. Reason is because it's the SAME promise first given to Abraham. It then went to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to his son Joseph, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still dwells today among lost Israel joined with believing Gentiles making up Christ's Church. That promise is about the faith on Christ Jesus, The Gospel. At the end of John 8, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day and was glad. Thus The Gospel preached to Abraham like Paul pointed to wasn't just some base idea of Abraham having many children and not knowing why, which how most interpret Paul.

As for what Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 about inheriting, you need to heed the Scripture as written instead of inserting men's traditions into it...

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


That is HOW Abraham would become the father of many nations like the Genesis prophecy said. It's about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And THAT... is what God first gave through Abraham, which is why Paul shows those of faith are the children of Abraham...

Gal 3:7-8
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
KJV
 

Doug

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Well, yes it does. The idea of Christ's Church being "as Isaac was, are the children of promise", is emphatic by Apostle Paul that Christ's Church has inherited the promise to Isaac. Reason is because it's the SAME promise first given to Abraham. It then went to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to his son Joseph, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still dwells today among lost Israel joined with believing Gentiles making up Christ's Church. That promise is about the faith on Christ Jesus, The Gospel. At the end of John 8, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day and was glad. Thus The Gospel preached to Abraham like Paul pointed to wasn't just some base idea of Abraham having many children and not knowing why, which how most interpret Paul.

As for what Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 about inheriting, you need to heed the Scripture as written instead of inserting men's traditions into it...

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


That is HOW Abraham would become the father of many nations like the Genesis prophecy said. It's about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And THAT... is what God first gave through Abraham, which is why Paul shows those of faith are the children of Abraham...

Gal 3:7-8
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
KJV

Galatians 3:29 is saying we are heirs with Christ according to the promise of the Spirit see Romans 8:17
 

Davy

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Galatians 3:29 is saying we are heirs with Christ according to the promise of the Spirit see Romans 8:17

What is it you don't understand with Paul saying those of faith are all one in Christ Jesus per Gal.3:28? He said that in conjunction with verse 29. You can't just isolate one verse out of that Galatians 3 chapter and then attach a doctrine of man to it, which is what you're doing.
 

Doug

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What is it you don't understand with Paul saying those of faith are all one in Christ Jesus per Gal.3:28? He said that in conjunction with verse 29. You can't just isolate one verse out of that Galatians 3 chapter and then attach a doctrine of man to it, which is what you're doing.

Galatians 3:28 is about being one in Christ in regards to Jew and Gentile being reconciled in the body Ephesians 2:14-16
 

Davy

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Galatians 3:28 is about being one in Christ in regards to Jew and Gentile being reconciled in the body Ephesians 2:14-16

Which is why Paul then said this in red...

Gal.3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV