Word Study

soul man said:

John 3:3,
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The first word is born; born is the greatest of all words in your bible. In John 3:3 it says you must be BORN again. This is THE keystone word for you to understand, all your understanding will hinge on this small four letter word. You will not advance your understanding until you get this word fixed in you as your salvation. What does that mean "as your salvation," it means you were saved the moment you believed and were BORN again. You can no longer feel you have a works related salvation, if you do you have not seen what your father did the moment you believed. The word birthing was coined from this verse as a way to describe to term.

Click to expand...

You say you are looking for a word study; well the Greek word used in John 3:3 & 5 is gennethe, and it is the 3rd person, singular, aorist, passive, subjunctive of gennao, which means, 'to beget.' In the passive voice it is usually translated 'born,' but it would not be wrong to render it as 'begotten.' It is in the aorist tense, which means that it is a one-time occurrence; one does not go one being born again. Had it been in the present tense, it would have meant precisely that.

Being born is one stage of one's life over which one has no control. The Lord Jesus could have used other words: 'you must start again;' you must make a new effort;' you must reboot yourself,' but expressions like these are all things that we can do for ourselves. But being born again is something we cannot achieve. The time simply comes for us to be born and we put in our appearance with a little squawk in the maternity ward. There are other verses which give the teaching of a new birth but they all give the credit to God and to him alone.
1 Peter 1:3, 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope......'
James 1:18. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.....'
2 Corinthians 1:17. 'Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: old things have passed away......'

We are told that unless one is born again, he cannot see see the kingdom of God. the Greek word is tis, meaning 'someone,' 'anyone.' Therefore a new birth is indispensable to salvation, for you, for me, for Nicodemus, for everyone. The Roman Catholic teaching of a 'baptism of desire' is a fantasy. The word translated 'again' is anothen. Almost everywhere else in the New Testament it is rendered 'from above' (eg. John 3:31; Matthew 27:51; James 1:17). Only in Galatians 4:9b does it clearly mean 'again.' In John 3:3, the word is translated as 'again' because that's what Nicodemus understood the word to mean (John 3:4), but surely our Lord is using the word precisely because of its double meaning. "Nicodemus, you need a birth that all your outward piety and book-learning cannot give you; you need a birth that comes from above."

I pause for comments at this point before continuing.

You may have a strong passion for Abraham, or King David, or feel a word from Isaiah, but they are men. In John 3:3 you have a word directly from the Son of God Himself. Who's word should we accept. I'm just as passionate about the Old Testament, it is all I preached for years but it does not compare to a word from the Son of God.

Click to expand...

The whole Bible is the word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is invidious to be a red-letter Bible man, not because our Lord's words are not true and to be obeyed, but because the rest of the Bible is equally true and (properly understood) equally to be obeyed.

There is a delightful way of conducting discussions which is to ignore what your interlocutor is saying and to patronize him.

Episkopos said:

If you ever get to know yourself you will realize that you...and most people ...read into the bible as they already are.

Click to expand...

John Caldwell said:

@David Taylor cannot see outside of the theories he has been taught, so do not take it personally........Some end up seeing the deeper flaw and move to a closer and more traditional soteriological understanding.

Click to expand...

This method of Bible study enables one to avoid all the hard work of prayerful analysis of the text and drawing conclusions from it, whilst enabling one to appear knowledgeable and superior.

marks said:

I see. Thank you for clarification!

I'm curious how much of his doctrine you share. It seems to me that both of you see things very differently.

Much love!

Click to expand...

We agreed for a long time; then I noticed we came to things where we didn't, but that's not unusual, as I am not in a denomination and my beliefs are primarily my own with the help of the Spirit of Truth. A few years ago, I prayed and asked God to teach me the one interpretation of His word that is the only truth. My understanding exploded. He must have liked that prayer. I don't even remember what E and I were not 100% eye to eye on, so it must not have been too crucial. Where do you see we differ? BTW, I could also say the same thing about you. LOL And again, I can't remember exactly where you and I differ. LOL Must not have been important either. Do you know?

marks said:

So does this mean that you do believe you reach a steady state of sinlessness while living in these flesh bodies?

Click to expand...

Yes, but it would be a daily evaluation. Do what Paul did; go to bed with a totally clear conscience. And, of course, if God agrees with your assessment, He answers your prayers.

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

CharismaticLady said:

BTW, I could also say the same thing about you. LOL And again, I can't remember exactly where you and I differ. LOL Must not have been important either. Do you know?

Click to expand...

We differ on a few things, but functionally, we're pretty much on the same page I think.

I don't make a distinction between sins. I think all sin is from the flesh, and that all sin is equally overcome by faith in Christ that He has already accomplished our victory. We are to walk in faith, and that eliminates all that is not of faith, and therefore, sin.

I also see that we are recreated into sinless celestial beings, who, being God's begotten children, that this is forever.

Much love!

CharismaticLady said:

Yes, but it would be a daily evaluation.

Click to expand...

So not, as I say, a "steady state", that is, where one reaches a plateau where it's no longer an issue?

But lengthy sinlessless, and the real possiblity that each day could finish without sins commited.?

CharismaticLady said:

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

Click to expand...

It this instance, we can live free from condemnation because we "know nothing against ourselves", which is then by not perceiving any sins committed, or by knowing that any sins committed are not imputed to us.

Do you agree?

Is it possible that we might commit sins that are not imputed to us?

Much love!

Steve Owen said:

There is a delightful way of conducting discussions which is to ignore what your interlocutor is saying and to patronize him.

This method of Bible study enables one to avoid all the hard work of prayerful analysis of the text and drawing conclusions from it, whilst enabling one to appear knowledgeable and superior.

Click to expand...

I do not understand why you think it appropriate to adopt such a mode of conversation . For one, I do not believe patronizing either of us would work to your favor. And no true method of studying Scripture is without prayer full analysis of the text. We cannot just read commentaries and choose "scholars" to follow. It is very hard to identify and isolate our theories and presuppositions when studying Scripture.

The method of study I encourage is not a method to make one appear superior. It is a superior method because Scripture itself is superior to our philosophies and theories.

marks said:

We are to walk in faith, and that eliminates all that is not of faith, and therefore, sin.

Click to expand...

I agree. That verse you are paraphrasing would go with the verse I like because it is easier to relate to for some when teaching and that is our conscience. And when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit our conscience seems to be super-sensitized, and you stay away from far lesser sins of attitude as well as murder and stealing.

But yes, I do understand and teach the difference in types of sin as taught by John in 1 John 5:14-15 and the rest of the Bible. You are a smart guy and should study it, at least, so you can teach others what scripture teaches. BTW, I already used "imputed"/"imparted." I will use that too in my new book. I love it!

marks said:

So not, as I say, a "steady state", that is, where one reaches a plateau where it's no longer an issue?

But lengthy sinlessless, and the real possiblity that each day could finish without sins commited.?

Click to expand...

Yes, you understand. And the older you get, the easier it is. I'm 72 and live alone with no one to push my buttons, so I'm not in a position to murder some man! LOL

I wrote about this on one of Helen's posts. I'll see if you gave it a "like" and if not I'll copy it here.

marks said:

It this instance, we can live free from condemnation because we "know nothing against ourselves", which is then by not perceiving any sins committed, or by knowing that any sins committed are not imputed to us.

Do you agree?

Is it possible that we might commit sins that are not imputed to us?

Much love!

Click to expand...

Yes, now you are getting into the other type of sin. So you see not all sin is the same. What you are describing are trespasses - sins unknown to you and unwittingly (without your wits/brain) committed. Leviticus 5:15. As long as you forgive others their trespasses against you and you don't hold any trespass against someone else, and keep in fellowship with them, yours are automatically forgiven. You need to always be walking in the Spirit to make this true.

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

CharismaticLady said:

I don't even remember what E and I were not 100% eye to eye on, so it must not have been too crucial. Where do you see we differ?

Click to expand...

Actually, on quite a bit.

No one who commits sins is "in Christ", even though we receive every spirit blessing in Christ, and it is in Christ that we are new creations.

In his view, there is no one who will be cast into a lake of fire. All humanity is redeemed and accepted by God, whatever it is they believe. Those who are faithful to whatever it is they believe are received by God just the same as those who trust in, and follow Jesus.

Being born again is not "salvation", though salvation from what I'm not sure since he is essentially universalist. But he teaches that being born again means you can now "enter the race" to be "in Christ", and therefore get to stand close to God in the new heaven and earth. Others, those believers, who are born again, will be in outer darkness.

There's a lot more to it, and as always I welcome his correction, as I never wish to misstate someone's views, only to understand them.

But these see contrary to what I've heard from you, though, again, I welcome your correction also.

Much love!

CharismaticLady said:

Yes, you understand. And the older you get, the easier it is. I'm 72 and live alone with no one to push my buttons, so I'm not in a position to murder some man! LOL

I wrote about this on one of Helen's posts. I'll see if you gave it a "like" and if not I'll copy it here.

Click to expand...

So we are very much in agreement on this.

Much love!

CharismaticLady said:

As long as you forgive others their trespasses against you and you don't hold any trespass against someone else, and keep in fellowship with them, yours are automatically forgiven.

Click to expand...

This would make our salvation dependent on our performance, and I believe that our salvation is dependant on Jesus' performance.

I believe Jesus, in saying, unless you forgive you will not be forgiven, that this was taught those under Law. Those under grace are told, forgive others, as God in Christ Has Forgiven you.

We're not saved, or remain saved, by the right behavior, rather, we are saved in order that we would do the right behavior.

Much love!

cc: @Episkopas These are what marks says we disagree on...

marks said:

No one who commits sins is "in Christ", even though we receive every spirit blessing in Christ, and it is in Christ that we are new creations.

Click to expand...

No one who commits "sins unto death called lawlessness 1 John 3:4" are in Christ. But we can be while walking in the Spirit and commit unknown trespasses.

marks said:

In his view, there is no one who will be cast into a lake of fire. All humanity is redeemed and accepted by God, whatever it is they believe. Those who are faithful to whatever it is they believe are received by God just the same as those who trust in, and follow Jesus.

Click to expand...

I have never heard him say this, so E, please confirm. That is called Universalism, and I do not agree with Universalism. Nor purgatory to pay for your sins so you can go to heaven.

marks said:

Being born again is not "salvation", though salvation from what I'm not sure since he is essentially universalist. But he teaches that being born again means you can now "enter the race" to be "in Christ", and therefore get to stand close to God in the new heaven and earth. Others, those believers, who are born again, will be in outer darkness.

Click to expand...

This again I've never heard, though I don't read everything he says unless he is addressing me personally or writes a new post. Without addressing Universalism, Jesus did say that he who believes in Me, and endures to the end will be saved. So though I don't go so far as to say one trespass you haven't forgiven others will damn you, though I don't know; I do believe you can commit apostasy and fall back to perdition. Peter says, returning to your own vomit.

Hebrews 10:
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

That tells me you can draw back to hell/perdition.

By the way, now that you read my last post regarding our differences, do we still disagree?

marks said:

This would make our salvation dependent on our performance, and I believe that our salvation is dependant on Jesus' performance.

I believe Jesus, in saying, unless you forgive you will not be forgiven, that this was taught those under Law. Those under grace are told, forgive others, as God in Christ Has Forgiven you.

We're not saved, or remain saved, by the right behavior, rather, we are saved in order that we would do the right behavior.

Much love!

Click to expand...

This is why I said it is dependent on walking in the Spirit. It is all Him in us, nothing to do with works of our own. Do you see the difference?

It depends too on if our nature has been born again taking on the divine nature. Then we do what comes naturally. Either carnal righteousness which is as filthy rags; or divine righteousness of God.

marks said:

So we are very much in agreement on this.

Much love!

Click to expand...

Yes, you did read and liked my post in Helen's Death to Self post.

@marks

I know you are Spirit-filled, but can't remember if you operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I have them and wondered if this was something we differed on. Do you believe in them?

CharismaticLady said:

This is why I said it is dependent on walking in the Spirit. It is all Him in us, nothing to do with works of our own. Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

Unless we are walking in the Spirit, I believe we default into the works of the flesh.

I see the flesh as alway operative, but so long as we are walking in the Spirit, then the flesh has no outlet for it's misdeeds.

I try to avoid saying works, as that's a buzzword for justification by works. I say, performance, in the lines of "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". We know this does not mean to work for your salvation, rather, "perform the work of your salvation, that is, do in your life what God is doing in you.

Failure to do this leaves us immature, lacking in fruit and reward, but still redeemed, and still born again, if in fact we were born again.

We may have faith, but have not added virtue, and knowledge, et al. But we still have faith. I know, it's a poor way to live. So I try to do what I can to encourage others to trust that God really can make your deepest wish true, to be holy as He is holy.

So I see this as a matter of two people, both with salvation, reborn, one who performs the work of their salvation as is rewarded accordingly, one who does not, and is saved, but as through fire.

Much love!



BTW . . . I've listened to a lot of teaching over many years, from various points of view. But my confidence in what I know is much the same that you describe. I go to the Bible, and I look for God to teach me. I know He does.

Much that I've learned this way Was Not taught from the pulpit. Oh, much was, but in a way that the right hand takes back what the left hand gives.

CharismaticLady said:

@marks

I know you are Spirit-filled, but can't remember if you operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I have them and wondered if this was something we differed on. Do you believe in them?

Click to expand...

Well I most certainly hope I'm operating in the gift of teaching!!!!

If not . . .

The most dour passage of Scripture for me is, Let not many be teachers, knowing we shall receive a stricter judgment, for in many things we offend all! Sad but true!

And I truly know I do not have the gift of Adminstration! I can barely run the church potluck.

Yes, I believe in the spiritual gifts.

I just heard an excellent teaching on the spiritual gifts from John MacArthur, whom I had thought was cessationist. I'm sure he was, I think!

But he gave an excellent teaching! Something like, the gifts in Scripture are like the colors on a palette, and God takes His brush, and dips a little into this gift, and more of that gift, and paints you!

To me, the spiritual gifts are God's empowerment to perform service. I am anything but cessationist.

@Hidden In Him

Much love!