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Steve Owen

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Question! curious if anyone can see the birthing, an act of God totally independent of the sinner doing anything but believing?
I do. :) I would only add that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin (compare Matthew 4:17 with Mark 1:15). Saving faith is a repentant faith and repentance without trusting in Christ is nothing more than remorse.
 
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shnarkle

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John 3:3,
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 4:12,

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What does that mean "as your salvation," it means you were saved the moment you believed and were BORN again. You can nolonger feel you have a works related salvation,

What did we have to do in order to be born? A baby doesn't actually do anything. A mother gives birth to a baby, but the baby is passively born. Likewise, when one is "born again", or born of spiritual water, belief is a spiritual consequence of that birth. We do not do anything to be born as that would constitute a works based salvation.


You may have a strong passion for Abraham, or King David, or feel a word from Isaiah, but they are men. In John 3:3 you have a word directly from the Son of God Himself. Who's word should we accept. I'm just as passionate about the Old Testament, it is all I preached for years but it does not compare to a word from the Son of God.

It's interesting that Jesus makes a similar observation when he points out to Nicodemus that he doesn't seem to comprehend what he is saying even though he has such an extensive understanding with the Hebrew scriptures. If anyone should be able to understand what he's talking about, it would be him. Perhaps if we took a few examples from the Old Testament. Abraham is referred to as the father of the faith because when God told him to pull up stakes and leave his home, he did just that, and he did it with no goal or objective in mind. "The Spirit breathes where he wills. You hear the sound of his voice, but you don't know where it comes from or where it goes, and so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit". That description fits Abraham to a T.

Noah is described as walking with God, and when Isaiah looks around at the pervasive corruption of Israel, he is ashamed and disgusted until he is given a beatific vision as well as the ability to communicate this vision. He sees seraphim praising God. They are pointing out that all of God's creation is full of the glory of God. Isaiah sees it as well because he has been begotten from above. He sees the world as God sees it, not as he does as a carnal man.

There are numerous examples of people being born in the Old Testament. Usually they are given a new name to indicate the fact, e.g. Abram/Abraham; Jacob/Israel, etc. They are a new creation.
 
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soul man

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There are numerous examples of people being born in the Old Testament. Usually they are given a new name to indicate the fact, e.g. Abram/Abraham; Jacob/Israel, etc. They are a new creation.

Thanks for commenting, interesting perspective. We will see things quite different when it comes to a bonified birthing. My understanding is there could be no birthing until the old man sin nature was killed out on the cross. That is what happened on the cross, so I see no birthing until after the cross. The birthing has to do with Christ in you and a new nature in Christ. To birth an Old Testiment saint you would have to put Christ in with the sin nature. There is no Christ in you nature in the OT, only what is referred to as a God to people relationship.
 

shnarkle

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Thanks for commenting, interesting perspective. We will see things quite different when it comes to a bonified birthing. My understanding is there could be no birthing until the old man sin nature was killed out on the cross.

From the time of Adam onward, that sacrifice was proclaimed. They all looked forward to the cross while we all look back. The bible speaks of "righteous Abel", and Noah, etc. They are walking with God, and complying with God's will. The sacrificial system was put in place to point to the need for self sacrifice. Those who sin regardless of whether they be before the cross or after, are still sinners. Those who are made righteous regardless of whether they be before the cross or after are a new creation.

That is what happened on the cross, so I see no birthing until after the cross. The birthing has to do with Christ in you and a new nature in Christ.

Yep. Quite true. Christ is the centerpiece of salvation. This doesn't mean that one is incapable of being born again simply because they lived prior to Christ. We are all sinners. Christ is the only one who sacrificed himself without already being a sinner. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but there was no sin in him, and those who are in Christ regardless of when they lived are sinless as well. Paul lists quite a few people from the Old Testament who are awaiting their eternal reward as part of the new creation.

To birth an Old Testiment saint you would have to put Christ in with the sin nature. There is no Christ in you nature in the OT, only what is referred to as a God to people relationship.

I'm not sure why you're saying this. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. Again, Christ comes in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ in you, is the gospel message throughout the entire bible. There is no difference between the old and new testaments with regards to the gospel. The gospel message is the same for everyone. The gospel of the kingdom makes no distinctions. God is not a respecter of persons.
 

soul man

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Paul lists quite a few people from the Old Testament who are awaiting their eternal reward as part of the new creation.

Are you saying there were Old Testament saints that were new creations? Born again as New Testament saints are, with Christ in them.
 

soul man

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What did we have to do in order to be born? A baby doesn't actually do anything. A mother gives birth to a baby, but the baby is passively born. Likewise, when one is "born again", or born of spiritual water, belief is a spiritual consequence of that birth. We do not do anything to be born as that would constitute a works based salvation.
First, no one said anything about a sinner doing anything but believe on the finished work of the cross for salvation, which constitutes a birthing.

If you are making a reference to Old Testament saints and a birthing, there is no cross for them. Without the cross there is no born again by Christ in them. Obedience (OT saints) to the law or God having the saint do something and a birthing (NT saints) are two worlds apart.

Abraham is referred to as the father of the faith because when God told him to pull up stakes and leave his home, he did just that, and he did it with no goal or objective in mind

Again, where does oobedience to God-birth a bonified son such as faithful Abraham or any of the OT saints. Can you provide scripture to back up a claim of a birthing in OT.
 

soul man

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He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but there was no sin in him

A human being is not sinful, what makes a sinner is their nature. Christ did not have the nature handed down through Adam, which is a sin nature, his father was God (you get a nature by a father). That makes a human being sinful not their actions, sinners by nature. The cross did away with, crucified the sin nature, all believers have a new nature with the old man being dead now, by the cross. All in Adam are born with the sin nature. All in Christ now (after the cross) have the nature of God which is in Christ, Christ in you nature. Flesh is mind given to body, a body is only what is given to it, has no life of it's own.

I'm not sure why you're saying this. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. Again, Christ comes in the likeness of sinful flesh

I'm saying the birthing is Christ in you, impossible to happen in the OT because it took the cross to kill out the sin nature. For an OT saint to be birthed they would need Christ them and they did not have Christ in them. The new creation is; Christ in you the hope of glory. Christ in you, the twain become one. You cannot make son's, son's are not created they are literally birthed, there absulutely must be a father invovled to bring about a birth. There is no fatherhood from God in the OT, there was no grace. What we see is an angry OT God that you best obey, no fatherhood. There were none to be father too, though fatherhood was in him, there was none to express it too, no birthing. The weight of scripture is in Paul repeating over and over the "in Christ position," there is nothing in the written word that carries the weight of the in Christ message, not a single scripture of saints in the OT being in Christ, over 150 times times in the NT Paul has the believer in Christ
 

farouk

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From the time of Adam onward, that sacrifice was proclaimed. They all looked forward to the cross while we all look back.
@shnarkle Rather like with the passover and the Lord's Supper; the passover looked forward, while the Lord's Supper looks back 'show(ing) the Lord's death, till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).
 

shnarkle

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Are you saying there were Old Testament saints that were new creations? Born again as New Testament saints are, with Christ in them.

The good news is the good news. If one is given the ears to hear, they are a new creation. If one continues to sin, they have an advocate in Christ to cover their sin. Under the new covenant, God gives one a new heart to keep His commandments. "Those who walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh" That is what makes the sacrificial system redundant, and one must have that new heart to keep the law in one's heart.

If you'll notice, the new covenant is speaking explicitly with regards to the reunification of Israel and Judah, and a time when God will give them a new heart to keep His commandments. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19:36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10)

There is no essential difference between a believer who lived before or after Christ's sacrifice. The only difference between believers are those who keep God's commandments, and those who much continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins.
 

shnarkle

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First, no one said anything about a sinner doing anything but believe on the finished work of the cross for salvation, which constitutes a birthing.

A sinner does all sorts of things, but they're all sin because they are incapable of actually believing the good news. They can only respond to the good news when God gives them the ability to respond to it. Everyone is dead in their sins until then. Again, the author of Hebrews begins with "righteous Abel", faithful Abraham, etc. You are assuming that they are not looking forward to their savior. You are assuming they are ignorant of the fact that their sacrifice can never cover their sins. You are assuming that they don't see that their sacrifice is only pointing to Christ's sacrifice.

If you are making a reference to Old Testament saints and a birthing, there is no cross for them.

Salvation is of the Jews. They came up with the sacrificial system. They were given it directly from God. This idea you have that there is no cross for them is without merit. Paul even points out that "all Israel shall be saved".

Without the cross there is no born again by Christ in them. Obedience (OT saints) to the law or God having the saint do something and a birthing (NT saints) are two worlds apart.

Sure, but there is no difference between those witnesses in the Hebrew OT scriptures and those in the New. You're conflating two books of the bible with the Old and New Covenants. Christ is slain from the foundation of the world, and those who are given the ears to hear the good news rejoice regardless of when their natural lives began. The cross stretches across the entire expanse of time. It begins with Adam, and ends in the twinkling of an eye when the last lost soul is found.



Again, where does oobedience to God-birth a bonified son such as faithful Abraham or any of the OT saints.

Strawman argument. Nowhere does obedience to God result in one becoming born again. That is not how the Old Covenant operated.

Can you provide scripture to back up a claim of a birthing in OT.

i already have. The author of Hebrews provides an extensive list as well, beginning with "righteous Abel".
 

soul man

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The good news is the good news. If one is given the ears to hear, they are a new creation. If one continues to sin, they have an advocate in Christ to cover their sin. Under the new covenant, God gives one a new heart to keep His commandments. "Those who walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh" That is what makes the sacrificial system redundant, and one must have that new heart to keep the law in one's heart.

If you'll notice, the new covenant is speaking explicitly with regards to the reunification of Israel and Judah, and a time when God will give them a new heart to keep His commandments. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19:36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10)

There is no essential difference between a believer who lived before or after Christ's sacrifice. The only difference between believers are those who keep God's commandments, and those who much continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins.

All due respect, quite a stretch of the word. A simple yes or no on the new creation in Christ in the OT? I do thank you for your comments.
 

soul man

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A sinner does all sorts of things, but they're all sin because they are incapable of actually believing the good news. They can only respond to the good news when God gives them the ability to respond to it. Everyone is dead in their sins until then.

Ok but they must believe, and every man is given that measure of faith, so agree yes.

Again, the author of Hebrews begins with "righteous Abel", faithful Abraham, etc.

They were what they were by obedience not Christ in them as we are. We are made the righteousness of God by Christ in you nature. Christ is all to the NT believer.
 

shnarkle

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A human being is not sinful, what makes a sinner is their nature.

You just contradicted yourself. Adam was not created to sin. He was not a sinner, until he sinned. Everyone else is practically the same. We all fall, and become sinners. We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. It is all anyone can do. We can only sin. This is explicitly pointed out in Romans. Nothing we can do will ever please God. We can never repent. It is impossible for the carnal man to repent. The carnal man must die. It is only the new creature in Christ who can repent and take hold of the good news, and embrace it.

Christ did not have the nature handed down through Adam, which is a sin nature,
He came "in the likeness of sinful flesh"(Rom.8:3).

his father was God (you get a nature by a father).

Look at Christ's genealogy in Luke's gospel. It goes all the way back to Adam. He was "born of a woman". He who denies that Christ came in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist. 1 John 2:22

That makes a human being sinful not their actions, sinners by nature.

Yes. Agreed. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. It is the nature of the carnal man to sin. That is all the carnal man can do. Nothing the carnal man does is by faith. Most importantly, the carnal man cannot repent, or believe the gospel.

The cross did away with, crucified the sin nature, all believers have a new nature with the old man being dead now, by the cross.

Correction: The cross does away with the sinful nature, but you are conflating the instrument itself with the good news which revolves around self sacrifice. The sacrificial system points to self sacrifice in general, and the sacrifice of Christ specifically. Yes, Christ's sacrifice does away with "the likeness of sinful flesh", but unless or until one is able to pick up their own cross and crucify the flesh themselves (Gal.5:24), they cannot receive the new birth. Again, I already provided you with examples from the Old Testament. You haven't addressed any of them yet.

QUOTE] All in Adam are born with the sin nature. All in Christ now (after the cross)

Again, Christ was slain from the foundations of the world (Heb.9:26;1Pet.1:20) for ALL men, not just those who were born after the historical event of Christ's death on a cross.

have the nature of God which is in Christ, Christ in you nature.

Your restrictions are unfounded. Christ himself points out that Abraham rejoiced in the coming of messiah.

Flesh is mind given to body, a body is only what is given to it, has no life of it's own.

Yes, Quite true! Now that "you" understand that, "you" just need to realize that "you" don't really exist. You are not who you think you are. This contradictory idea you have of yourself as a separate individual is nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind. This is an idea we all learn as we develop from infancy. Abstract constructions of the mind have no life of their own. This is not just the truth of scripture. Science agrees with this empirical fact as well.

I'm saying the birthing is Christ in you,

I agree.

impossible to happen in the OT because it took the cross to kill out the sin nature.

Impossible to happen for anyone who is incapable of self sacrifice as well. Again, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world which was considerably earlier than the Old Testament. Christ's sacrifice is the only sacrifice that actually removes sin, but the fact that it occurred after a born again believer received the gospel message is quite simply irrelevant. It matters not when one receives the gospel, and there is nothing preventing someone who lived before Christ from receiving the gospel message. Again, it doesn't just save those who lived after Christ was crucified, nor does the timing of Christ's sacrifice prevent one from receiving salvation simply because they lived prior to the crucifixion. This is your assertion, and I see nothing to substante it anywhere in scripture.

For an OT saint to be birthed they would need Christ them and they did not have Christ in them.

False. Paul himself points out that they had Christ leading them throughout the wilderness. The rock with overflowing water is Christ IN THEM. Paul explicitly points this out for our edification. He explicitly points out that they drank in Christ. They were sustained exclusively by Christ. Christ points out that one cannot rely upon God and Mammon. They relied EXCLUSIVELY upon God. Do you have to ask someone to provide you with a coin or currency to prove a point, or do you have some in your wallet?

The new creation is; Christ in you the hope of glory. Christ in you, the twain become one. You cannot make son's, son's are not created they are literally birthed, there absulutely must be a father invovled to bring about a birth.

Yep, and there's nothing preventing God from doing that anywhere throughout human history.

There is no fatherhood from God in the OT, there was no grace.

False. God's grace is spread abundantly, but more importantly, the gospel message was as well, and those who received in in gladness were saved and born again, and produced fruit. The grace and truth that existed in the Old Testament was manifested in the flesh of Christ in the New. In other words, Christ personifies the grace and truth of Almighty God. The only difference is that he is sinless, we're not. This doesn't prevent you or I or even righteous Abel from receiving the gospel. Christ's sacrifice is eternal, and his sacrifice reaches all the way back to Adam.

What we see is an angry OT God that you best obey, no fatherhood.

This is what you choose to see. What the saved born again believer in the Old Testament saw was his own sin, and the righteous judgment of God which convicted them, and allowed them to receive the precious gift of repentance. What you are missing out on is the glaring fact that they are ALL saved. If you don't remember being convicted by God, then you couldn't have received the gift of repentance, and can't be saved. Paul spells this out for us in his letters, and even points out that this is exactly what is going on in the Old Testament.

there is nothing in the written word that carries the weight of the in Christ message, not a single scripture of saints in the OT being in Christ, over 150 times times in the NT Paul has the believer in Christ

False. Look at Christ in the garden of Gethsemene, and you see the righteous judgement of God's wrath descending upon him. We see this throughout the Old Testament as well, but we also see repentance. It is a pervasive theme throughout the bible, and there can be no salvation without it. We see God's presence protecting His chosen people as they wandered through the wilderness, and into the Promised land.

God takes his people from bondage to sin, into the wilderness where he gives them his law. His presence with them prevents many from sinning under the immediate threat of death. This is what it means to live under the New Covenant. The new creature simply cannot sin. It is no different than placing a gun to your head and pulling the trigger. The wages of sin is death, but those who are given a new heart make their way into the Promised land. These are all illustrations of the reality of salvation. Paul points out that they are explicitly for our edification.

I can make the exact same argument you are with the arbitrary difference of saying that only those who looked forward to the cross are saved while those who lived afterwards missed the boat altogether. You snooze, you lose. I can assert that you were just simply unlucky enough to have been born after the fact rather than before. They could all see what their destiny was while you missed it. See how pointless it is to come up with these type of theories?

The fact that God's grace and truth were manifested in Christ doesn't negate God's ability to save anyone prior to or after that event. It doesn't negate the fact that the scriptures point out God's presence in the midst of his chosen people. This is probably the best translation of Christ's words in the new testament when he says, "the kingdom of God is in your midst" Luke 17:20-21 He couldn't have meant that it was within them because he was addressing the Pharisees who wanted to kill their king. They had only murder in their hearts.

Again, Paul calls upon us to crucify the flesh daily, and only those who have Christ living in, with, and through them can crucify the carnal man. The carnal man must wrestle with God just as Jacob did, but just because God chooses to save you doesn't mean he didn't choose to save each and every lost soul Christ came to save before he lived "in the likeness of sinful flesh".
 

shnarkle

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@shnarkle Rather like with the passover and the Lord's Supper; the passover looked forward, while the Lord's Supper looks back 'show(ing) the Lord's death, till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).

The Passover also looks back. It isn't just the Passover. It is the feasts of the Lord as well. If you look at the Psalms that accompany the feasts of the Lord, they all refer to them as a memorial as well as a rehearsal of what is to come.

Paul points out: "Christ is our Passover, therefore let us keep the Feast" The feast is a direct reference to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is an invitation for us to receive Christ's sacrifice which then enables us to remove the leaven (a type for sin) from our lives. Christ calls us to self sacrifice which is how this is accomplished, and it is only accomplished in, with, and through Christ. He does it. He enables us to lose our lives for his sake. We lose ourselves in, with, and through Christ.
 

farouk

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The Passover also looks back. It isn't just the Passover. It is the feasts of the Lord as well. If you look at the Psalms that accompany the feasts of the Lord, they all refer to them as a memorial as well as a rehearsal of what is to come.

Paul points out: "Christ is our Passover, therefore let us keep the Feast" The feast is a direct reference to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is an invitation for us to receive Christ's sacrifice which then enables us to remove the leaven (a type for sin) from our lives. Christ calls us to self sacrifice which is how this is accomplished, and it is only accomplished in, with, and through Christ. He does it. He enables us to lose our lives for his sake. We lose ourselves in, with, and through Christ.
The Luke 22 passage seems to show particularly clearly that the passover - the last one - looked forward to the Cross, while the Lord's Supper instituted would involve the disciples looking back to the Cross.
 

shnarkle

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Ok but they must believe, and every man is given that measure of faith, so agree yes.

They can only believe if they have already become a new creation. It is only the new creation who can believe, and they were created to believe, obey, produce fruit, etc.



They were what they were by obedience not Christ in them as we are.

False. This is your assertion, and it is unsupported by scripture. The law could never save anyone. The purpose of the law was never to make anyone obedient, or to save anyone. That is your assertion.

We are made the righteousness of God by Christ in you nature. Christ is all to the NT believer.

i can only agree that this is your opinion, but thankfully your opinion has no weight when it comes to their eternal reward. They are saved, and scripture explicitly points this out repeatedly. Abraham, "by faith" left his homeland, circumcised his flesh, and was willing to offer his own son to God. They are all acting "by faith". They are all born again believers. Read Hebrews chapter 11 where the author explicitly points this out.
 

shnarkle

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The Luke 22 passage seems to show particularly clearly that the passover - the last one - looked forward to the Cross, while the Lord's Supper instituted would involve the disciples looking back to the Cross.

Christ says that he has been looking forward to sharing that Passover with his disciples. It was a Passover. The last supper is not a separate event or a separate meal. They are one and the same, and he says, "whenever you do this (observe Passover), do it in rememberence of me". He is showing them that he is fulfilling the antitype illustrated in their memory of exit from Egyptian bondage. He is the Passover lamb slain to free us all from sin which allows us to become obedient as we enter into the Promised land.
 

farouk

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Christ says that he has been looking forward to sharing that Passover with his disciples. It was a Passover. The last supper is not a separate event or a separate meal. They are one and the same, and he says, "whenever you do this (observe Passover), do it in rememberence of me". He is showing them that he is fulfilling the antitype illustrated in their memory of exit from Egyptian bondage. He is the Passover lamb slain to free us all from sin which allows us to become obedient as we enter into the Promised land.
I don't see how the passover is continued today...the Cross is pivotal to our understanding of the transition.