• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How very non-scriptural of you, to cite "you".

Reality is measured by time.

Prophecy was fulfilled to the exactness of time (Daniel 9):

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Deny this reality of time, that God Himself moves the whole universe by, and you then are the one living in illusion (willingly so). God set in motion the orbits of the planets, and the motions of the earth, sun and moon., and notice what God states:

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Therefore, I cannot live in your private phantasy, which truly will rub against all reality, even eternity to come:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​
You are grossly out of context. That all has to do with the merely [created] times of this world. His kingdom is not of this world.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You ought to change your "faith" status to something which isn't Christianity, because what you are speaking has nothing to do with it.

Prophecy speaks of the Future, not "once upon a time" (which you told me just a post ago was "illusion", and therefore cannot be "once upon a", which accepts reality, not illusory).

History speaks of the past and present, which again deals with reality, not illusory. History is prophecy fulfilled. Prophecy is history yet to come.
...Perhaps when you mature.

Meanwhile---No, God is reality, and His kingdom is not of this world; biblically speaking, this would be "reality" is "created" "image(s)."

As for being "Christian", examine thyself. You have it backwards. If one is of the world they are not of the kingdom, not a follower of Christ.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yeah, I've already debunked your SDA
You are suffering from delusional grandeur. I will leave stand that which I have already provided. Nothing given by yourself is against it (even if you think so), but in harmony with it.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 13:1-10 is tied, by language and time, to Daniel 7:2-8,17,19-21,23-25.

Daniel, looking in time from his present:

saw (vison/dream) - Daniel 7:1,2,5,6,7,9,11,13,21

Sea
- Daniel 7:2,3 1,260 - Daniel 7:25

war - Daniel 7:21

saints - Daniel 7:18,21,22,25,27

books - Daniel 7:10

angels - Daniel 7:10,13,16

God (Ancient of days; Father) - Daniel 7:9,13,18,22,25,27

Son of man (Jesus; Lamb) - Daniel 7:13,14

peoples, nations, languages - Daniel 7:14,23,27

worship (times and laws of God) - Daniel 7:25

Lion - Daniel 7:4

Bear - Daniel 7:5

Leopard - Daniel 7:6

a Dreadful terrible beast - Daniel 7:7-8

seven heads [1 Lion, 1 Bear, 4 Leopard, 1 Beast] - Daniel 7:4-8,11,12,17,19,23

ten horns - Daniel 7:7-8,20,24

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Daniel 7:4,5,6,7,8,9,12,14,17,18,22,23,24,26,27

a mouth speaking great things, the great words, mouth that spake very great things, speak great words against the most High - Daniel 7:8,11,20,25

little horn (with the mouth (and eyes of man, thus head) speaking and warring) - Daniel 7:8,11,20,21,24,25

killed
- Daniel 7:11,26​

John, looking in time from his present (which also covers the past):

saw (vison/dream) - Revelation 13:1,2,3

Sea - Revelation 13:1

1,260 - Revelation 13:5

war - Revelation 13:4,7

saints - Revelation 13:6,7,10

book - Revelation 13:8

angels - Revelation 13:7

God - Revelation 13:6

Lamb (Jesus) - Revelation 13:8

peoples, nations, languages - Revelation 13:3,4,7,8

worship (times and laws of God) - Revelation 13:4,8

a beast - Revelation 13:1,2,3,4

body of a leopard - Revelation 13:2

feet of a bear - Revelation 13:2

mouth of a lion - Revelation 13:2

seven heads - Revelation 13:1

ten horns - Revelation 13:1

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Revelation 13:1,2,7

mouth speaking great things and blasphemies - Revelation 13:1,5,6

one of its heads (with the mouth (being a head, has eyes) speaking and warring) - Revelation 13:3,5,6,7

killed
- Revelation 13:10​
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tit_3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
I did, but then I forgave you.

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Daniel 8 is tied to Daniel 7 and the span of time there, just as Daniel 8 is tied to Daniel 9 and the time there:

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.​

Daniel is very chiastic, not only in chapter, but so in verse, for instance, in Daniel 8:1, the chiasm reads [brackets in bold added for helpful clarity]:

[A1] “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar ...”

[B1] “... a vision appeared ...”

[C1] “... unto me [Daniel] ...”

[C2] “... even unto me Daniel ...”​

[B2]
“... after that [vision] which appeared unto me ...”​

[A2]
“... at the first [year of the reign of king Belshazzar, in Daniel 7:1].”​

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.​

Further comparison:

Compare:

"then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground" in Daniel 10:9,

to Daniel 8:18 "I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground"

Compare:

"I am come for thy words" in Daniel 10:12,

also "sent" in Daniel 10:11​

to
Daniel 9:21 "being caused to fly swiftly"

and Daniel 9:22 "And he informed [me], and talked with me"

and Daniel 9:23 "I am come to shew [thee]"

and Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood"​

Compare:

"hand touched me" in Daniel 10:10​

to
Daniel 9:21 "touched me"

and Daniel 8:18 "he touched me, and set me upright"​

Compare:

"understand" in Daniel 10:11-14​

to
Daniel 9:22 "skill and understanding"

and Daniel 9:23 "therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision."

and Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand"

and Daniel 8:16 "make this [man] to understand the vision"

and Daniel 8:17 "Understand, O son of man"

and Daniel 8:19 "Behold, I will make thee know"

and Daniel 7:16 "So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things."​

Compare:


"for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart"

and
"to chasten thyself before thy God"

and "thy words were heard" in Daniel 10:12​

to
Daniel 9:23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth"

and Daniel 8:15 "sought for the meaning"

and Daniel 7:16 "asked him the truth of all this"

and Daniel 7:19 "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast"​

Compare:


"O man greatly beloved" in Daniel 10:19

to Daniel 9:21 "for thou [art] greatly beloved"​

Compare:

"like the appearance of a man" in Daniel 10:18

to Daniel 9:21 "even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning"

and Daniel 8:15 "behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man"

and Daniel 8:16 "Gabriel"

and Daniel 7:16 "one of them that stood by"​

Daniel 11 parallels Daniel 8, and covers the same 2,300 years.

Daniel 8 - “the vision”

Daniel 8 - “the interpretation”

Daniel 10-12 - “the interpretation”

Explanation

Daniel 8:1

Introduction​

Daniel 10:1-21, 11:1

Introduction/Beginning

Daniel 8:2-4

Daniel 8:20​

Daniel 11:2

The Ram with 2 Horns are Kings of Media – Persia.

Daniel 8:5-7

Daniel 8:21​

Daniel 11:3

He-Goat with Notable Horn is Greecia and its first King

Daniel 8:8

Daniel 8:22​

Daniel 11:4 & 5-19

He-Goat, Notable Horn broken, becomes 4 Divisions – Greecian kingdom divided

Daniel 8:9

Daniel 8:23 [a]​

Daniel 11:20 & 21-30

Little Horn on the Horizontal, earthly is the King of Fierce countenance, is Pagan Rome & transitioning into a combination of church and state, Constantine, on into history and overthrow of three horns, etc ...

Daniel 8:10

Daniel 8:23​

Daniel 11:21-30 & 31-39

Transitioning into the Little Horn on the Vertical, spiritual is the King speaking Dark Sentences, is Papal Rome with its armies [1,260; 1,290; 1,335 and continuing the 2,300]

Daniel 8:11-12

Daniel 8:24-26​

Daniel 11:31-39 & 40-45; 12:1-3

Little Horn increases in strength, persecuting, taking captive, is then taken captive, receives deadly wound, makes a come back, but eventually perishes, etc.

Ending


Daniel 8:27​

Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1-3

Ending; The Great Controversy comes to its climax, and God's Kingdom is come.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are suffering from delusional grandeur. I will leave stand that which I have already provided. Nothing given by yourself is against it (even if you think so), but in harmony with it.

What you are doing is called 'projection' in psychology. It's when someone accuses someone else of the very thing they themselves are guilty of.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 13:1-10 is tied, by language and time, to Daniel 7:2-8,17,19-21,23-25.

Daniel, looking in time from his present:

saw (vison/dream) - Daniel 7:1,2,5,6,7,9,11,13,21

Sea
- Daniel 7:2,3 1,260 - Daniel 7:25

war - Daniel 7:21

saints - Daniel 7:18,21,22,25,27

books - Daniel 7:10

angels - Daniel 7:10,13,16

God (Ancient of days; Father) - Daniel 7:9,13,18,22,25,27

Son of man (Jesus; Lamb) - Daniel 7:13,14

peoples, nations, languages - Daniel 7:14,23,27

worship (times and laws of God) - Daniel 7:25

Lion - Daniel 7:4

Bear - Daniel 7:5

Leopard - Daniel 7:6

a Dreadful terrible beast - Daniel 7:7-8

seven heads [1 Lion, 1 Bear, 4 Leopard, 1 Beast] - Daniel 7:4-8,11,12,17,19,23

ten horns - Daniel 7:7-8,20,24

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Daniel 7:4,5,6,7,8,9,12,14,17,18,22,23,24,26,27

a mouth speaking great things, the great words, mouth that spake very great things, speak great words against the most High - Daniel 7:8,11,20,25

little horn (with the mouth (and eyes of man, thus head) speaking and warring) - Daniel 7:8,11,20,21,24,25

killed
- Daniel 7:11,26​

John, looking in time from his present (which also covers the past):

saw (vison/dream) - Revelation 13:1,2,3

Sea - Revelation 13:1

1,260 - Revelation 13:5

war - Revelation 13:4,7

saints - Revelation 13:6,7,10

book - Revelation 13:8

angels - Revelation 13:7

God - Revelation 13:6

Lamb (Jesus) - Revelation 13:8

peoples, nations, languages - Revelation 13:3,4,7,8

worship (times and laws of God) - Revelation 13:4,8

a beast - Revelation 13:1,2,3,4

body of a leopard - Revelation 13:2

feet of a bear - Revelation 13:2

mouth of a lion - Revelation 13:2

seven heads - Revelation 13:1

ten horns - Revelation 13:1

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Revelation 13:1,2,7

mouth speaking great things and blasphemies - Revelation 13:1,5,6

one of its heads (with the mouth (being a head, has eyes) speaking and warring) - Revelation 13:3,5,6,7

killed
- Revelation 13:10​

Anyone can pull single words and short phrases out of The Bible and stretch it to make it look like one is very knowledgeable. It's call fodder from the old idea of canon fodder. It's purpose is to try and impress.

And it won't change the Daniel 8:11-14 prophecy of 2300 days, which the cult system you follow tries to change those days into years.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Daniel 8 is tied to Daniel 7 and the span of time there, just as Daniel 8 is tied to Daniel 9 and the time there:

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.​

Daniel is very chiastic, not only in chapter, but so in verse, for instance, in Daniel 8:1, the chiasm reads [brackets in bold added for helpful clarity]:

[A1] “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar ...”

[B1] “... a vision appeared ...”

[C1] “... unto me [Daniel] ...”

[C2] “... even unto me Daniel ...”​
[B2] “... after that [vision] which appeared unto me ...”​
[A2] “... at the first [year of the reign of king Belshazzar, in Daniel 7:1].”​
Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.​
Further comparison:

Compare:

"then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground" in Daniel 10:9,

to Daniel 8:18 "I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground"

Compare:

"I am come for thy words" in Daniel 10:12,

also "sent" in Daniel 10:11​
to Daniel 9:21 "being caused to fly swiftly"

and Daniel 9:22 "And he informed [me], and talked with me"

and Daniel 9:23 "I am come to shew [thee]"

and Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood"​
Compare:

"hand touched me" in Daniel 10:10​
to Daniel 9:21 "touched me"

and Daniel 8:18 "he touched me, and set me upright"​
Compare:

"understand" in Daniel 10:11-14​
to Daniel 9:22 "skill and understanding"

and Daniel 9:23 "therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision."

and Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand"

and Daniel 8:16 "make this [man] to understand the vision"

and Daniel 8:17 "Understand, O son of man"

and Daniel 8:19 "Behold, I will make thee know"

and Daniel 7:16 "So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things."​
Compare:

"for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart"

and
"to chasten thyself before thy God"

and "thy words were heard" in Daniel 10:12​
to Daniel 9:23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth"

and Daniel 8:15 "sought for the meaning"

and Daniel 7:16 "asked him the truth of all this"

and Daniel 7:19 "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast"​
Compare:

"O man greatly beloved" in Daniel 10:19

to Daniel 9:21 "for thou [art] greatly beloved"​
Compare:

"like the appearance of a man" in Daniel 10:18

to Daniel 9:21 "even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning"

and Daniel 8:15 "behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man"

and Daniel 8:16 "Gabriel"

and Daniel 7:16 "one of them that stood by"​

Daniel 11 parallels Daniel 8, and covers the same 2,300 years.

Daniel 8 - “the vision”

Daniel 8 - “the interpretation”

Daniel 10-12 - “the interpretation”

Explanation

Daniel 8:1

Introduction​

Daniel 10:1-21, 11:1

Introduction/Beginning

Daniel 8:2-4

Daniel 8:20​

Daniel 11:2

The Ram with 2 Horns are Kings of Media – Persia.

Daniel 8:5-7

Daniel 8:21​

Daniel 11:3

He-Goat with Notable Horn is Greecia and its first King

Daniel 8:8

Daniel 8:22​

Daniel 11:4 & 5-19

He-Goat, Notable Horn broken, becomes 4 Divisions – Greecian kingdom divided

Daniel 8:9

Daniel 8:23 [a]​

Daniel 11:20 & 21-30

Little Horn on the Horizontal, earthly is the King of Fierce countenance, is Pagan Rome & transitioning into a combination of church and state, Constantine, on into history and overthrow of three horns, etc ...

Daniel 8:10

Daniel 8:23​

Daniel 11:21-30 & 31-39

Transitioning into the Little Horn on the Vertical, spiritual is the King speaking Dark Sentences, is Papal Rome with its armies [1,260; 1,290; 1,335 and continuing the 2,300]

Daniel 8:11-12

Daniel 8:24-26​

Daniel 11:31-39 & 40-45; 12:1-3

Little Horn increases in strength, persecuting, taking captive, is then taken captive, receives deadly wound, makes a come back, but eventually perishes, etc.

Ending


Daniel 8:27​

Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1-3

Ending; The Great Controversy comes to its climax, and God's Kingdom is come.

Really full of yourself, which is likely why you cannot determine what those Bible prophecies are actually about.

Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

KJV

It's the "first beast" that suffers the "deadly wound" upon one of its seven heads, not the "little horn" (Antichrist). Even the Rev.13 Scripture above reveals that, IF... one pays attention to what is actually written there in God's Word. The "first beast" is the beast kingdom of Rev.13:1-2 which is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. The "little horn" of Daniel applies to the "another beast" starting in Rev.13:11, which is a beast king.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...It's the "first beast" that suffers the "deadly wound" upon one of its seven heads, not the "little horn" (Antichrist). ...
As I showed, by the language itself, they are the same thing expressed in different terms.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I showed, by the language itself, they are the same thing expressed in different terms.

Then you show again you don't really know what the prophecy is about and cannot stay with what is actually written.

The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is not a person. It's a kingdom, because it contains ten horns which are the ten kings of Rev.17, and it has seven heads which are the "seven mountains" of Rev.17. That comes up out of the sea. The waters per Rev.17:15 John is shown represent peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Thus it represents a world kingdom.

The 2nd beast starting at Rev.13:11 is a person, the one Jesus warned of that would deceive even His very elect if it were possible (Matthew 24:23-26). That is the beast king of Rev.17:8.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,046
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
As I showed, by the language itself, they are the same thing expressed in different terms.
You fail to realize that past events are prophetic types. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:6-11, what happened to ancient Israel was symbolic for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.

Also, the past events never totally fulfilled what the prophets said would happen. We await a final and complete fulfilment of it all; could be quite soon!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You fail to realize that past events are prophetic types. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:6-11, what happened to ancient Israel was symbolic for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.

Also, the past events never totally fulfilled what the prophets said would happen. We await a final and complete fulfilment of it all; could be quite soon!
What would give you the impression, in this thread, that I do what you (incorrectly and without evidence) claim I do? ("fail to realize ..."), for instance see the following which I believe and teach:

See also:




Time prophecies are fulfilled once. Events are repeated, but not the specific time prophecies when they are given. For instance, the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus first Advent. There is not another greater 70 weeks yet to be fulfilled (even as it was part of the greater 2,300 years). You have a confusion of two things, as the other has.
 
Last edited:

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is not a person. It's a kingdom, because it contains ten horns which are the ten kings of Rev.17,
The first beast (of the Sea) of Revelation 13, is the antichrist system. It is the same as the 'little horn' of Daniel 7, which is also the antichristian system. Both are political/religious systems. Is there a position, in which a single man sits, as its head, yes. Is the ultimate antichrist, the ultimate son of perdition, satan, behind it all, yes.

The ten horns of Revelation 13, are not the 10 horns of Revelation 17. Revelation 13 is tied to Daniel 7, while Revelation 17 is tied to Daniel 2.