John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

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H. Richard

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WATER BAPTISM:

Two places in the Bible that I do not feel support baptismal regeneration (water baptism necessary for salvation) are as follows.

1 Pet 3:18-22 (NIV)

18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water """symbolizes""" baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body [by water] but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. “””It saves you by the resurrection””” of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand-- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

In verse 20 note the word is THROUGH water. Not a drop of water was put on Noah and his family because they were in the Ark..

Verse 21 in the NKJV reads:

21 There is also an “””antitype””” which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

At the end of verse 20, we read that, eight souls, were saved ""through" water. It is not that they were saved "by" water; they were saved "through" the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them. If the people in the Ark, left the Ark, they would have drowned in the water. Therefore it is obvious that the water was not salvation.

To properly understand this statement in verse 20 and the verse that follows, we must see the typical meaning of the Ark and the flood. The Ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The Ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are "in Christ" (Romans 8:1-2, 2 Cor. 1:21-22, 2 Cor. 5:17) are as saved as God Himself can make them. Those on the outside could not be more lost.

The water was not the means of salvation, for all who were in the water drowned. The Ark was the place of refuge and the only means of salvation. The Ark went ""through"" the water of judgment; it took the full brunt of the storm. Not a drop of water reached those inside the Ark. So Christ bore the fury of God's judgment against our sins. For those who are "in Him" there is no judgment (John 5:24).

Actually, there is a baptism which saves us --- not our baptism in water, but a baptism which took place at Calvary almost 2000 years ago; Christ's death was a baptism (see Mark 10:38). He

was baptized in the waters of judgment. This is what He meant when He said, "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished" (Luke 12:50). The psalmist described this baptism in the words, "Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls; all Your waves and billows have gone over me" (Psalms 42:7). In His death, Christ was baptized in the waves and billows of God's wrath, and it is this baptism that is the basis for our salvation; Christ's baptism unto death on the cross. Today the Holy Spirit baptizes us into His baptism on the cross. It is the Holy Spirit that does this, not man. That is what it means to be buried with Him. Our water baptism "represents" our identification with Him only. It does not save us.

Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

Context is everything. Nowhere in the conversation has water baptism been mentioned. In John 3, verse 6 we see the words "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. " There is absolutely no mention of water baptism. Only two things are under discussion, being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

If 'water' does not refer to literal water but is symbolic for something else, then for consistencies sake "Spirit" must not refer to the literal "Spirit" but must be symbolic for something else also.

The Bible is its own best commentary:

Jn 3:5--------------------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-------------Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5--------------Holy Ghost++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>>cleansed

It can easily be seen that water refers to water baptism when compared to other 'born again' verses. In the immediate context of John 3 we can see that water refers to literal water in John 3:22-23 showing what Jesus meant by "water" in John 3:5.


John 3:5--------------born again>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Matthew 7:21-------doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

Since there is just one way to be saved, enter the kingdom, no alternatives then there is a definite connection between being born again and doing the will of God. God has commanded water baptism and those who obediently submit to baptism (doing God's will) are the one's who are born again.
 

FHII

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If 'water' does not refer to literal water but is symbolic for something else, then for consistencies sake "Spirit" must not refer to the literal "Spirit" but must be symbolic for something else also.

No, that isn't the case. Sometimes the Bible uses symbolism and sometimes it doesn't. I have said SEVERAL times sometimes the Bible is talking about literal water baptism. That means they literally got dipped in water.
Now if you really believe that, then the parables Jesus gave are nothing more than lessons in farming or whatever they are using.

It can easily be seen that water refers to water baptism when compared to other 'born again' verses. In the immediate context of John 3 we can see that water refers to literal water in John 3:22-23 showing what Jesus meant by "water" in John 3:5.
I have already discussed this. Later in chapter 3 there is a literal water baptism being carried out by both John and Jesus (though he didn't baptize himself). Even though it occurs in the same chapter, it happened at least a day and probably 2-3 days after Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus. The events are not connected.

I have given my reasons why I believe in John 3:5 he is not talking about literal water. First and foremost, Jesus told Nicodemus he was talking about spiritual things. Second, he never mentions baptism. Third, he uses similar language in chapter 4 when he was talking to the Samaritan woman.
 
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amadeus

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As promised! See below...
My old pastor has been to Israel more than 30 times since his first visit in 1963. On one of his early visits he has often told about him and another minister baptizing some of their fellow visitors in the Jordan River. At that time it was not controlled so anyone could have done that. Since then the local government has placed restrictions on it. I don't have more details on that.

As to the water being deep enough other than in the spring floods, I don't know. I will being seeing him in a couple of days and will certainly ask him.
I met with my pastor this A.M. as usual on Wednesdays, but this time I asked about that visit to Israel. He used to go to Israel every 18 months beginning in 1963. He always went in either the Spring or in Autumn as the weather was best at those times. The one time he baptized people in the Jordan River on his very first visit. They had a group of about 50 people. He and another minister performed the baptisms of all of them. He said the water was about waist deep and the location was north of the Sea of Galilee not too far from the border of Lebanon. It was during that first year that he met an Israeli family who at the time lived in the southern part of Jerusalem. Later they moved to Acco in the north and since the children grew to adulthood, they have relocated to at least three different places in modern Israel. They are unusual people, now being Christians there. He introduced them to Christ and has maintained his relationship with them over the years. A little 2 year old girl who sat on his lap on his first visit is now a grandmother.

His last visit to Israel was in the Spring of 2013 his first full year as a widower. He says he would like to go back one more time, but considering his own frailty it would almost be take a miracle for him to survive the trip, but my wife and I were certain he would not live a single year after losing his wife for he was very dependent on her. He goes on...

He attended both camp meetings in Kentucky and a fellowship meeting in Illinois this year, driving alone for two of them. He flew to Florida for another meeting He has driven by car from Oklahoma to Kansas City Mo several times this year and made one round trip into Arkansas. This past weekend he returned from a 200 mile trip within Oklahoma again traveling by car alone. How does he continue? My own answer is that God is not finished with him yet. He only travels for God. He only lives for God. My wife and I are his only 'family' close to his home now. I visit him and when I do I usually take him homemade soup for the microwave or some donuts from the bakery.

People all over the country who have known him over the years want him to visit them. To visit them all would be... no I won't say, impossible. He has a definite plan already to fly to Portland OR in May of 2020 and from there he is likely to visit both Seattle WA and California. He made that same trip a couple of years ago and again I thought it would have been the last one. But then he's only 94!
 
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bbyrd009

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His last visit to Israel was in the Spring of 2013 his first full year as a widower. He says he would like to go back one more time, but considering his own frailty it would almost be take a miracle for him to survive the trip, but my wife and I were certain he would not live a single year after losing his wife for he was very dependent on her. He goes on...
you could maybe tell him you know of a guy would be a great companion, im free april 15 :D


oh plus i think right now or soon if res were made we could do BA for like $16-1800 round trip woo hoo

anybody here down for a real Israel vaca/dental vaca side trip to Sinai, Implants $188 each? Yes, you read that right. First class dentists too. No tours to the ersatz Upper Room tho k, Red Sea (think amazing aquarium) excursion tossed in free, climb (the fake) Mt Sinai and see St Catherine's Monastery--the oldest, moldest whateverwhatever--for almost free, $30 or something round trip cab fair i think

10 suck...i mean tourists max for this tho :D
the implant savings basically pay for the trip
heck id even do it at cost wth

oh if im caretaking i can only do like 4 more tho i guess
book now! seats going fast!
Step Right Up
He attended both camp meetings in Kentucky and a fellowship meeting in Illinois this year, driving alone for two of them. He flew to Florida for another meeting He has driven by car from Oklahoma to Kansas City Mo several times this year and made one round trip into Arkansas. This past weekend he returned from a 200 mile trip within Oklahoma again traveling by car alone. How does he continue? My own answer is that God is not finished with him yet. He only travels for God. He only lives for God. My wife and I are his only 'family' close to his home now. I visit him and when I do I usually take him homemade soup for the microwave or some donuts from the bakery.
ok then i can do 6 more lol
i am dead cereal ppl ok, bout got the itinerary done now
People all over the country who have known him over the years want him to visit them. To visit them all would be... no I won't say, impossible. He has a definite plan already to fly to Portland OR in May of 2020 and from there he is likely to visit both Seattle WA and California. He made that same trip a couple of years ago and again I thought it would have been the last one. But then he's only 94!
i plan on havin me a five year old about then myself :)
mebbe 2
 
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amadeus

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you could maybe tell him you know of a guy would be a great companion, im free april 15 :D


oh plus i think right now or soon if res were made we could do BA for like $16-1800 round trip woo hoo

anybody here down for a real Israel vaca/dental vaca side trip to Sinai, Implants $188 each? Yes, you read that right. First class dentists too. Red Sea (think amazing aquarium) excursion tossed in free, climb (the fake) Mt Sinai and see St Catherine's Monastery--the oldest, moldest whateverwhatever--for almost free, $30 or something round trip cab fair i think

10 suck...i mean tourists max for this tho :D
the implant savings basically pay for the trip
heck id even do it at cost wth

oh if im caretaking i can only do like 4 more tho i guess
book now! seats going fast!
Step Right Up
ok then i can do 6 more lol
i am dead cereal ppl ok, bout got the itinerary done now

i plan on havin me a five year old about then myself :)
mebbe 2
He would really love to have a traveling companion. I tried it for a while a few years back but I could not continue it. I love the old guy, but he is human and he has some ways that soon become intolerable. My wife and I have actually been praying that God would get this thing done... for it is also a trial on us. I try to stay always patient with him, but I am old too. At times he is beyond me and my wife steers clear of him much of the time. We promised his wife on her death bed certain things, but because she knew him and knew that no one else would or could, she asked us. Unknowingly, we said, yes.

People want him to come and minister and that he does well. I believe that few would want him to stay on if he stayed for as long as we have had to fill in for his absent wife. And when it comes to that sometimes we do a poor job. Who can replace a wife? Don't get me wrong. He is a very good spiritual man who walks with God. But... he also has his side of flesh that remains.
 
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bbyrd009

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He would really love to have a traveling companion. I tried it for a while a few years back but I could not continue it. I love the old guy, but he is human and he has some ways that soon become intolerable.
hey, mom is 76; he would be a dream to me lol
But... he also has his side of flesh that remains.
ha trust me, ima let him drive all the way, i dont even wanna drive. Id prolly end up writing an article about it even. I mean of course ill clown him too, but i get this real subtle streak around old ppl, my mom just howls. Dunno where it comes from even
 
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bbyrd009

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oh plus i think right now or soon if res were made we could do BA for like $16-1800 round trip woo hoo
wow make that as cheapo as like $1200 rt if we book soon, yikes. Same price i pd 7 years ago
BA will ruin you for any other airline tho k
6 hour layover in London too
5 add seats left now on this itinerary ladies,
(assuming og goes)
depart apr 18, return may 5 i think
departs Dallas, but im amenable

up to like 5 implants, make sure your bone is up to it or get grafts before then
i suggest you bring toiletries only and buy cheap bags to carry all your loot home
rather than dump your snazzy travel clothes in the street there to pack it instead lol. Like i did. I know where to get Bedouin beaded purses for like $60 :)
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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God has commanded water baptism and those who obediently submit to baptism (doing God's will) are the one's who are born again.

And I still want to SEE where Jesus <commanded> those who <<obediently submit to baptism>> as <<doing God's will>> FOR THEM, or, <<are the one's who are born again>>.
 
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bbyrd009

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And I still want to SEE where Jesus <commanded> those who <<obediently submit to baptism>> as <<doing God's will>> FOR THEM, or, <<are the one's who are born again>>.
um, its right there in the quote box above your post bro, i mean dont even bother looking anywhere else eh
m bass is gone now, no longer with us, standing where etcetc right
 

amadeus

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hey, mom is 76; he would be a dream to me lol

ha trust me, ima let him drive all the way, i dont even wanna drive. Id prolly end up writing an article about it even. I mean of course ill clown him too, but i get this real subtle streak around old ppl, my mom just howls. Dunno where it comes from even
If you were serious I would mention you to him. For driving, I would never ride in a car with him driving again. My own driving is not as good as it has been, but at the wheel he scares me death. However, he is always more than willing to let anyone else drive for him. He knows his frailty. A couple of years ago he fell asleep at the wheel and wrecked his car. About three years ago driving alone to Alabama, he had a single car accident near Memphis. Usually he leaves for anywhere with lots of spare time so he can stop and rest along the way... but...?

As to Israel, I really doubt that he will ever make the trip again. He talks about it, but he already has trips scheduled, which he would have to work around. Also while he has a regular income, he is not rich. He is able to travel because other than bare essentials that is the only thing he spends money on... In 2020 he will make the two trips to the Kentucky camp meetings and several other possible meetings in Alabama, Florida, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas and places west. Between any of those he will travel to other more or less impromptu meetings. When he remembers, which is only part of the time, he calls me before he leaves and again when he has arrived somewhere. When someone calls, such as the pastor of a church he is visiting I do expect the worst. But... God keeps on saying, 'not yet'!

When he travels he always wears a suit and tie. Even when I visit him at home he often have his suit on because just going into town locally it is what he wears most of the time.
 
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bbyrd009

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If you were serious I would mention you to him
totally serious bro. id hafta juggle the dental thing, but ill just make him think its his idea! :D
I would never ride in a car with him driving again
oh yeh thats not happening...but i would just make him think its his idea! :D
As to Israel, I really doubt that he will ever make the trip again.
so, we're back up to 9 spots, and no complications...ok 8 spots i guess

5 dental implants for a $G from a guy who works on sheiks and stuff, trust me they are quite competent
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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its right there in the quote box above your post

Nothing there about water in the first place, and nothing in the whole Bible box about to baptise for anyone except the apostles addressed in there --and nothing in there than "baptise in with by through the NAME"..
 
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