Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

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John Caldwell

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"Differ" with David or with me? I too believe you must endure to the end, but it comes from the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise the Law could have saved us. But the Law was weak through the flesh, Romans 8:1-9 and only produced the struggle of Romans 7, not yet having the Spirit in Romans 8 to overcome the works of the devil.

How do you see Hebrews 10?
I agree. With Hebrews I tend to view it as dealing with Israel (having tasted of the Spirit being the works of God Israel observed and falling away being turning back "to Egypt").

That said, I think your emphasis on sins is very important. It is difficult for me as I continually catch myself getting caught in those presuppositions I am trying to separate from my view (I have the same theological background as @David Taylor, only I have come to see my presuppositions for what they are).

Peter speaks to the believer that they should fear God because they will be judged. We are to confess our sins and repent to be forgiven. Sin does matter even to the believer. I think you make an excellent point.
 

reformed1689

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Yes. On that day.

You interpret the verse to read "you will die spiritually on the day you eat of the fruit and physically about 900 years afterwards".

I interpret the verse to read "on the day you eat of the fruit you will surly die". (Not "you will die on the day you eat of the fruit").

In other word, I believe it was through Adam's transgression that death entered the world. Death moved from a "potential" to a "certainty".
It is a both/and, not an either/or. Adam did die spiritually the day that he ate the fruit and also physical death became a reality.
 
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John Caldwell

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It is a both/and, not an either/or. Adam did die spiritually the day that he ate the fruit and also physical death became a reality.
I know this is what you believe.

The probable is that Scripture defines Christ Himself as spiritual life and one that is not temporary.

More than that, no passage in the entire Bible speaks of Adam as having died a spiritual death or as being created with spiritual lide. Scripture presents Adam as being made flesh - not Spirit - and upright.

Since the only evidence you have for the passage referring to spiritual death is theoretical (we know it refers to physical death given the reference of returning to dust) I can see no reason to entertain the argument.
 
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John Caldwell

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And we are back to the superiority complex.
No. That is a statement of fact. I did hold your view but have come to see what you offer as implied in Scripture to be presupposed upon it.

Is there a passage that states Adam died spiritually? Is there one that states he was created with spiritual life? Is there a passage that states God was wrathful to Jesus? Is there one that says God punished Christ instead of punishing us?

No. Of course there is not. That is why Penal Substitution Theory is a theory among the other theories of atonement.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Some of my presuppositions are/were because of something I heard that sounded right. But some of them are/were from my own reasoning.

I used to accept (because I liked the sound of it I guess) that I was created in Gods image. But scripture really doesnt say that about me. It does say adam was created in Gods image. But then, further along, after the transgression, it says that adam had a son born in HIS image.
 

CharismaticLady

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It is a both/and, not an either/or. Adam did die spiritually the day that he ate the fruit and also physical death became a reality.

Yes, I have to agree about dying spiritually. God's killing the clean animal for their clothing instituted for them a sacrifice (for their sins they would continue to commit with their damaged nature, though these sacrifices were to them thank you offerings until the Law, because even though God knew they sinned, it wasn't imputed to them until Moses).
 

reformed1689

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I did hold your view but have come to see what you offer as implied in Scripture to be presupposed upon it.
Again, I do not hold that it is implied, but explicit.

Is there a passage that states Adam died spiritually?
Ephesians 2
Is there one that states he was created with spiritual life?
This is implied by showing there is a change of state in Adam and Eve coupled with the other passages that show we are spiritually dead in our sin. Some things have to be understood by implication (ex. Trinity).

Is there one that says God punished Christ instead of punishing us?
Yes, Is. 53:5 (though I know you think that just means learning).
 

reformed1689

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Since the only evidence you have for the passage referring to spiritual death is theoretical (we know it refers to physical death given the reference of returning to dust) I can see no reason to entertain the argument.
Of course this is a false statement. I never said that there was no passage referring to spiritual death.
 

Steve Owen

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Because it was through suffering that He "learned obedience" and was "made perfect" so that He would be a High Priest.
You have referenced Hebrews 5:8-9 several times, and certainly they are intriguing and challenging verses. The question is, as I have written before, how does the Christ, who 'knows all things' (John 21:17) need to learn anything? And, specifically, why does the One who was obedient in His childhood (Luke 2:51) and all through His ministry (John 5:30; Philippians 2:8), need to learn obedience?
Here's my take on it.
I have a friend I made on an internet forum who is Pastor of a small church in Texas. He married a lady in his youth and at that time, if you had asked him if he understood the bit in the marriage vows about loving, 'in sickness and in health' and 'forsaking all others,' I expect that he would have angrily insisted that he did.
However, in the very first year of their marriage, his wife picked up a viral brain infection and became totally unable to move or respond to him in any way. She continued in this state for over 20 years until she died a few years ago. During this time he continued to be entirely devoted to her and never went with another woman.
Now, he knew theoretically what the marriage vows meant, and when it came to the crunch he kept them, but now he knows practically what they mean, and no one can ever tell him that he doesn't because he has lived them out.

So in the same way, when we pray to God and say, God, "I'm having so much trouble living out this obedience to Your Lordship, and resisting sin," He is not going to say, "Well, I don't understand any of that. I've never obeyed anyone ever and I cannot be tempted to sin." No! our Lord Jesus Christ knows from experience exactly what obedience means because He lived it out, even unto death, during His time on earth, and He was tempted or tested in every way, just as we are (yet without sin). So 'We do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin [so] let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace in time of need' (Hebrews 4:15-16, just a few verses before 5:8-9).

But this does not impact upon His cross work which is described in Hebrews 9 & 10. It is as well as, not instead of, His work of propitiation. There are two parts to the work of a high priest: to offer sacrifices, and to intercede for the people. Christ, by His perfect substitutionary sacrifice of Himself on the cross has taken away the sins of those for whom He died, and, just as the High Priest carried the names of the 12 tribes of Israel over his heart (Exodus 28:29), so Christ ever lives to intercede for us, knowing from personal experience our trials, temptations and sufferings.

Alleluia! What a perfect and wonderful Saviour we have!
 

John Caldwell

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You have referenced Hebrews 5:8-9 several times, and certainly they are intriguing and challenging verses. The question is, as I have written before, how does the Christ, who 'knows all things' (John 21:17) need to learn anything? And, specifically, why does the One who was obedient in His childhood (Luke 2:51) and all through His ministry (John 5:30; Philippians 2:8), need to learn obedience?
Here's my take on it.
I have a friend I made on an internet forum who is Pastor of a small church in Texas. He married a lady in his youth and at that time, if you had asked him if he understood the bit in the marriage vows about loving, 'in sickness and in health' and 'forsaking all others,' I expect that he would have angrily insisted that he did.
However, in the very first year of their marriage, his wife picked up a viral brain infection and became totally unable to move or respond to him in any way. She continued in this state for over 20 years until she died a few years ago. During this time he continued to be entirely devoted to her and never went with another woman.
Now, he knew theoretically what the marriage vows meant, and when it came to the crunch he kept them, but now he knows practically what they mean, and no one can ever tell him that he doesn't because he has lived them out.

So in the same way, when we pray to God and say, God, "I'm having so much trouble living out this obedience to Your Lordship, and resisting sin," He is not going to say, "Well, I don't understand any of that. I've never obeyed anyone ever and I cannot be tempted to sin." No! our Lord Jesus Christ knows from experience exactly what obedience means because He lived it out, even unto death, during His time on earth, and He was tempted or tested in every way, just as we are (yet without sin). So 'We do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin [so] let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace in time of need' (Hebrews 4:15-16, just a few verses before 5:8-9).

But this does not impact upon His cross work which is described in Hebrews 9 & 10. It is as well as, not instead of, His work of propitiation. There are two parts to the work of a high priest: to offer sacrifices, and to intercede for the people. Christ, by His perfect substitutionary sacrifice of Himself on the cross has taken away the sins of those for whom He died, and, just as the High Priest carried the names of the 12 tribes of Israel over his heart (Exodus 28:29), so Christ ever lives to intercede for us, knowing from personal experience our trials, temptations and sufferings.

Alleluia! What a perfect and wonderful Saviour we have!
I agree with your conclusion of Christ learning obedience (I think the context emphasizes that High Priest context).

I also agree that Christ is the Propitiation for sin.
 

John Caldwell

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Again, I do not hold that it is implied, but explicit.


Ephesians 2
This is implied by showing there is a change of state in Adam and Eve coupled with the other passages that show we are spiritually dead in our sin. Some things have to be understood by implication (ex. Trinity).

Yes, Is. 53:5 (though I know you think that just means learning).
Not implied but explicit in a nonexplicited stated sort of way?

Penal Substitution Theory is introduced.
 

Steve Owen

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There is the "second death" but that is at Judgment.

I specify because Penal Substitution Theory focuses on Jesus experiencing a spiritual death rather than a physical death. That is why @Steve Owen insists Jesus experienced three hours of what the lost will experience in Hell (which he attributes to spiritual death).
:eek: I hardly deny that Christ suffered physical death! Of course He did! But the Bible speaks of the Lord Jesus, 'In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power' (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). So there is punishment awaiting those who reject Christ. We may argue over the meaning of 'everlasting destruction' but it may have to do with the 'everlasting punishment ' of Matthew 25:46 or with the fire that is not put out and the worm that does not die. There is also God's curse abiding on those who fail to keep His righteous laws (Galatians 3:10). At all events, the punishment involves the absence of God, except perhaps for His abiding wrath, and from the light of His glory. During the three hours of darkness on the cross our Lord endured for us not only terrible pain but physical darkness and a sense of the absence of God. He suffered those things for us so that we who have trusted in Him and His redemption will not have to do so (Galatians 3:13)..
In the Bible the focus is physical death (the "second death" is Christ-centered judgment and not a part of the "sin problem" remedied at the cross by definition, but rather the product of the Cross as all judgment is given the Son).
It's hard to know what you mean here, and you have given no Bible text for your claim, but I think I disagree. Hebrews 9:26-28. '......He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, and as it is appointed for men to die once, but after that the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.' Physical death leads to judgement.
 
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Steve Owen

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Not implied but explicit in a nonexplicited stated sort of way?

Penal Substitution Theory is introduced.
I understand that it suits you to cover your confusion over your own beliefs with bluster and attempted sarcasm, but you know exactly what @David Taylor is saying.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith 1:6.
The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own Glory, Man's Salvation, Faith and Life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

The Holy Trinity is not 'expressly set down in Scripture,' but it is 'necessarily contained' in it - that is, it is there and cannot be avoided when one compares Scripture with Scripture. The same is true of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
 
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Steve Owen

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I agree with your conclusion of Christ learning obedience (I think the context emphasizes that High Priest context).
This is something and nothing. Do you agree, as I wrote, that Christ was always obedient, as a child, in His ministry and unto death?
I also agree that Christ is the Propitiation for sin.
So you agree that God righteous anger against sin and those who commit it is propitiated by Christ bearing His curse against sinners (Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10-13; 1 Peter 2:24)?
 

Steve Owen

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Is there a passage that states Adam died spiritually? Is there one that states he was created with spiritual life?
To take these in reverse order:
'So God created man in His own image' (Genesis 1:27). 'God is spirit' (John 4:24). Ergo, Adam was created with spiritual life.
'In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die' (Genesis 2:17b). It seems that Adam lived another 900+ years after these words were spoken. The death that came upon him in that day can only have been spiritual death. Compare Genesis 1:27 with Genesis 5:3. From that time 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' Man needs a second birth to attain to spiritual life.
Is there a passage that states God was wrathful to Jesus?
God, of course, was never wrathful towards Jesus. He was always the 'Beloved Son.' I don't know how many times I have to state that. However, our sins (or sinfulness if you prefer) were punished in Him. Isaiah 53:5-6, 10. Only an utter determination to avoid the plain meaning of the text can deny it.
Is there one that says God punished Christ instead of punishing us?
'The punishment that brought us peace was upon him' (Isaiah 53:5, NIV :p). But again, God did not punish the sinless Christ; He punished us in Christ. 'By His wounds we are healed.'
 
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John Caldwell

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To take these in reverse order:
'So God created man in His own image' (Genesis 1:27). 'God is spirit' (John 4:24). Ergo, Adam was created with spiritual life.
'In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die' (Genesis 2:17b). It seems that Adam lived another 900+ years after these words were spoken. The death that came upon him in that day can only have been spiritual death. Compare Genesis 1:27 with Genesis 5:3. From that time 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' Man needs a second birth to attain to spiritual life.
God, of course, was never wrathful towards Jesus. He was always the 'Beloved Son.' I don't know how many times I have to state that. However, our sins (or sinfulness if you prefer) were punished in Him. Isaiah 53:5-6, 10. Only an utter determination to avoid the plain meaning of the text can deny it.
'The punishment that brought us peace was upon him' (Isaiah 53:5, NIV :p). But again, God did not punish the sinless Christ; He punished us in Christ. 'By His wounds we are healed.'
Some of these ideas only make sense if Penal Substitution Theory is assumed and overlaid on Scripture.

For example, the idea that God poured out His wrath on Jesus in order to punish us does not really make sense. Saying that God poured His wrath on Christ, Jesus drank the "cup" of God's wrath, yet God was never wrathful towards Jesus is also counterproductive. On the surface it seems to make the Theory sound more biblical, but scratch the surface and it is nonsense.

Also, hermenutics is not about taking a verse from Genesis and matching it with a verse from John and a few from Isaiah. This is a dangerous practice that can be used to justify just about any doctrine, theory or heresy.