Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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Enoch111

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Please provide a verse (without commentary/ comments) so that I can know (one at a time) the passage I denied.

TOTAL DARKNESS PREVENTED MEN FROM SEEING THE AGONY OF CHRIST
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour...And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.(Mt 27:45; Lk 23:44,45) As many were astonied [astonished] at thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men: (Isa 52:14)

THE FATHER TEMPORARILY FORSOOK THE SON IN HIS WRATH
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mt 27:46) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Ps 22:1)

CHRIST’S HEART “MELTED LIKE WAX” IN INTENSE AGONY
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.[internal parts or organs] (Ps 22:14) Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. (Ps 69:20)

THE “TERRORS OF DEATH” FELL UPON CHRIST, HORROR OVERWHELMED HIM
My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me. (Ps 55:4,5) I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. (Ps 69:2) Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15) The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. (Ps 116:3)

CHRIST’S SOUL WAS PIERCED WITH “A SWORD” (THE WRATH OF GOD)
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling [my precious life] from the power of the dog.[figurative for Gentile enemies] (Ps 22:20) For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping,Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. (Ps 102:9,10) Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the Man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

CHRIST WAS SMITTEN BY GOD AND AFFLICTED
For they persecute Him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (Ps 69:26) Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isa 53:4)

CHRIST BORE THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR PEACE
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.(Isa 53:5)

CHRIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS AND OUR GUILT
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken. (Isa 53:8)

CHRIST MADE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-12)

Since all these verse clearly reveal Penal Substitution, you have denied all of these Scripture by rejecting that doctrine. We could add many more verses. But just one verse from 1 Peter 3:18 summarizes all of the above:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, [PENAL SUBSTITUTION] that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
 

ScottA

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True. My point is Scripture does not indicate what Christ suffered He suffered instead of us suffering it.

The difference is substitution (instead of us) vs representation (in our place).
Haha...I'm not sure I understand that. But I do understand Jesus on the cross, and us in Him :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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Scripture does not teach that the consequences of sin is spiritual death (that spiritual death spread to all men because all have sinned). Scripture states that all will die (physically) and then the judgment.
This is what I do not believe:

I do not believe that God was wrathful to Christ; that God separated from Christ (withdrew His presence or His Spirit); that Jesus experienced God’s wrath; that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us; that Jesus experienced a “spiritual death”; that Jesus experienced what those who are condemned to Hell will experience

This is what I have always believed myself. The "spiritual death" teaching never made sense to me, nor do I see any scripture that teaches Jesus was tormented by Satan for three days and three nights. It says He went and preached to the spirits in prison, which means He went to the Paradise side of Sheol and preached to the Old Testament saints who were still awaiting their Deliverer. He preaching to them that He was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, and through faith in His sacrifice they then ascended with Him into Heaven, having been atoned for perfectly, Christ having fully restored their innocence before God. But never did this involve Jesus being tormented in Hell. The warning in Genesis was simply that the soul that sinned would die. So physical death and detainment in Paradise was the punishment for those who had sinned, but the torments of Hell were for those who rejected God, which is something Christ never did.

Nor did the saints.
 

John Caldwell

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This is what I have always believed myself. The "spiritual death" teaching never made sense to me, nor do I see any scripture that teaches Jesus was tormented by Satan for three days and three nights. It says He went and preached to the spirits in prison, which means He went to the Paradise side of Sheol and preached to the Old Testament saints who were still awaiting their Deliverer. He preaching to them that He was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, and through faith in His sacrifice they then ascended with Him into Heaven, having been atoned for perfectly, Christ having fully restored their innocence before God. But never did this involve Jesus being tormented in Hell. The warning in Genesis was simply that the soul that sinned would die. So physical death and detainment in Paradise was the punishment for those who had sinned, but the torments of Hell were for those who rejected God, which is something Christ never did.

Nor did the saints.
I agree.

I think that most who accept Penal Substitution Theory do not rely on Scripture itself but rather the narrative the Theory provides. Given the presuppositions provided the conclusions will follow (to include, IMHO, a logical necessity for a Calvinistic soteriology). The problem is that the presuppositions (things we are touching on now) are foreign to Scripture. Without these things the Theory falls apart.
 

John Caldwell

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I guess I don't know what you mean when you say "representation". Why "in the place of mankind"? Isn't that substitution?

much love!
What I mean by "representation" is as a "second Adam". Adam represented Jesus (we were children of Adam). But Adam was not our substitute. Likewise, Christ was not our substitute but our representative. I think this is why Scripture uses things like "children of God", "second Adam", "Son of Man", and the like rather than speaking of Christ as our substitute.
 

CharismaticLady

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It says He went and preached to the spirits in prison, which means He went to the Paradise side of Sheol and preached to the Old Testament saints who were still awaiting their Deliverer.

CC: @John Caldwell

Adding John because you said you agree. Where does it say that after Jesus died that he went to preach to OT "saints"??? Old Testament saints were obedient, not disobedient. I Peter 3 where this is found also mentions Noah and ark. It appears to me that Jesus preached to those who died in the flood.

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient
 
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Enoch111

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I think that most who accept Penal Substitution Theory do not rely on Scripture itself but rather the narrative the Theory provides.
You really think that Christians who believe in Penal Substitution are either (1) stupid, (2) naive, (3) self-deceived, or (4) incapable of rightly dividing the Truth and comprehending Scripture.

Which clearly shows that your heretical frame of mind has caused you to come to a point where Scripture means nothing to you. It is all "theory".

This obviously did not happen overnight. You chose to be influenced by those who hold to questionable doctrines, and now you are actually OPPOSING THE CORE OF THE GOSPEL. Just go back to Galatians 1 and see what the Holy Spirit says through Paul about those who bring another gospel.
 

Hidden In Him

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CC: @John Caldwell

Adding John because you said you agree. Where does it say that after Jesus died that he went to preach to OT "saints"??? Old Testament saints were obedient, not disobedient. I Peter 3 where this is found also mentions Noah and ark. It appears to me that Jesus preached to those who died in the flood.

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient

Those who lived through the flood were among the Old Testament saints : )
And like all men they too were formerly disobedient, CL.

Peter was using the saints who lived during the deluge in particular to draw a parallel with what was happening with New Testament saints. Few were saved during the flood, and few were being saved in Peter's time, but they were those whom Christ preached to, and who were undergoing baptism and then being raised up in Christ.
 
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CharismaticLady

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You really think that Christians who believe in Penal Substitution are either (1) stupid, (2) naive, (3) self-deceived, or (4) incapable of rightly dividing the Truth and comprehending Scripture.

Which clearly shows that your heretical frame of mind has caused you to come to a point where Scripture means nothing to you. It is all "theory".

This obviously did not happen overnight. You chose to be influenced by those who hold to questionable doctrines, and now you are actually OPPOSING THE CORE OF THE GOSPEL. Just go back to Galatians 1 and see what the Holy Spirit says through Paul about those who bring another gospel.

I think you have @John Caldwell all wrong, and, frankly, as usual are taking offense where none is given. You don't agree with me either, but I have had to do the same as John when it came to indoctrination, for me away from the Law of SDA to Grace. But even the grace I learned needed correcting.

John Calvin wasn't an inspired writer. If @Ernest T. Bass is accurate, and what he said of John Calvin beliefs is true, I can see why John Caldwell and Jacob Arminius and John Wesley and I would go back to the drawing board and correct things that are not scriptural to enable a more accurate "CORE OF THE GOSPEL." Only the open-minded can be lead by the Spirit, rather than caged in indoctrinizaton. At least any errors now will continue to be smoothed out as the Spirit is given permission to give new revelation because we are "listening.":

@Ernest T. Bass: "Also, if all of our sins past, present and future have UNCONDIONALLY been transferred/imputed to Christ and in turn Christ's righteousness is UNCONDITONALLY transferred to the sinner, that means these UNconditions would bring about Universalism. To get around this problem Calvin came up with the idea of limited atonement. Therefore penal substitution applies only to those Calvinism calls 'elect'. And it is this Calvinistic 'elect' that will be irresistibly saved by grace. So penal substitution provides bases for the LIP in TULIP.

To which I said: "All Calvin would have had to do was read 2 Peter 1:9. It is only our past sins that were cleansed, not also our present and future sins. That knowledge would have brought him to the truth by him having to ask, so how do we not willfully sin in the present and future? The answer, a new nature - being born again of the Spirit."

Bereans were honored by Paul because they didn't just take for granted that what he was telling them was right. They checked it out against Scripture. Calvinists on the other hand buy hook line and sinker the faulty doctrines that others could plainly see at the time were outright wrong. Enoch when an error in doctrine has been around for as long as Calvinism, the errors in the minds of his followers become the gospel, and the true gospel becomes heresy. It is the old proverb of calling wrong right, and right wrong. Then you become the "world" hating the Christians.

Don't hate seekers, for seekers will be repaid with truth.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Those who lived through the flood were among the Old Testament saints : )
And like all men they too were formerly disobedient, CL.

Peter was using the saints who lived during the deluge in particular to draw a parallel with what was happening with New Testament saints. Few were saved during the flood, and few were being saved in Peter's time, but they were those whom Christ preached to, and who were undergoing baptism and then being raised up in Christ.

Was Goliath an OT saint? I just want to know your definition of a "saint."
 

Enoch111

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Don't hate seekers, for seekers will be repaid with truth.
Seekers seek the truth, whereas heretics promote lies as truth.

Ernest Bass is so far off track that there is no possibility of helping him. John Caldwell has bee blatantly rejecting the Bible doctrine (not theory) of Penal Substitution and that is an attack on the core of the Gospel -- that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. There is no Gospel without this fundamental truth.

And if you are not clear on this subject, kindly re-read my OP in this thread. This doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism.
 

CharismaticLady

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Seekers seek the truth, whereas heretics promote lies as truth.

Ernest Bass is so far off track that there is no possibility of helping him. John Caldwell has bee blatantly rejecting the Bible doctrine (not theory) of Penal Substitution and that is an attack on the core of the Gospel -- that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. There is no Gospel without this fundamental truth.

And if you are not clear on this subject, kindly re-read my OP in this thread. This doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism.

That's exactly why Calvinism needed to be reformed by those who saw obvious unscriptural stances that caused Calvin to try to come up with unscriptural made-up solutions. Seekers aren't the heretics. They find the truth. Calvin should have just stuck to scripture. All the right answers were there.

Christ dying for our sins wasn't the issue. It was all the other nonsense that were in error.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Was Goliath an OT saint? I just want to know your definition of a "saint."

Well of course not, LoL.

I reread your post a couple times but I'm having trouble following you. What are you asking me? : )
Hope you have a blessed day, btw, and good to be talking with you again.
 

John Caldwell

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@marks ,

Are you familiar with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus and Recapitulation (not that I hold Recapitulation Theory but concerning the reason Christ had to die)? I believe that Christ had to die in terms of becoming the "second Adam". Martyr and Irenaeus (more direct with Irenaeus) would present this along the lines of succeeding where Adam failed. He was made the perfect "High Priest".
 

Hidden In Him

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I believe that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the lay by becoming a curse for us; that it is for our sake the Father made Him to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God; that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and for the sins of the whole world; that Christ suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; that we all have gone astray and the Lord has laid on Christ the iniquity of us all; that we were once dead in our trespasses and God made us alive together with Christ having forgiven us all our trespasses by canceling the record of debt that stood against us; that Christ had to be made like us in all respects so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest to make propitiation for our sins; that God put Christ forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith; that Christ came to give his life as a ransom for many; that it was the will of the Father to crush Him, to put Him to grief; that Christ is the founder and perfecter of our faith; that Christ bore our sorrows and grief yet we ourselves esteemed Him as stricken and smitten of God and afflicted while instead He was pierced for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and the chastening for our well-being fell upon Christ; it is by Christ’s stripes that we are healed and in Him we escape the wrath that is to come; in Christ there is no judgment; the world has been judged already; the Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son; God hears and does not despise those who are His; it is equally an abomination to God to acquit the guilty and to condemn the righteous.

Hey, John. I read your post of you referring to the various theories that have been presented down through the centuries. Does what you present above fall under any of those headings, or no? I agree that the proper Biblical word used is "propitiation," btw.
 

Mungo

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Still no concept of the finished work of Christ and the necessity of obedience to the Gospel. Sad.

They are not relevant to the point I made.
You are trying to divert the argument because you cannot answer the point I made.
You cling onto your false beliefs in spite of the overwhelming evidence given that you are wrong.
That's sad!
 

Mungo

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You really think that Christians who believe in Penal Substitution are either (1) stupid, (2) naive, (3) self-deceived, or (4) incapable of rightly dividing the Truth and comprehending Scripture.

Well you would appear to demonstrate all of them.
 
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Mungo

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Seekers seek the truth, whereas heretics promote lies as truth.

Ernest Bass is so far off track that there is no possibility of helping him. John Caldwell has bee blatantly rejecting the Bible doctrine (not theory) of Penal Substitution and that is an attack on the core of the Gospel -- that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. There is no Gospel without this fundamental truth.

And if you are not clear on this subject, kindly re-read my OP in this thread. This doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism.

Christ died for our sins - Yes
But not by penal substitution.,
 
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