Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

Enoch111 said:

TOTAL DARKNESS PREVENTED MEN FROM SEEING THE AGONY OF CHRIST
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour...And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.(Mt 27:45; Lk 23:44,45) As many were astonied [astonished] at thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men: (Isa 52:14)

THE FATHER TEMPORARILY FORSOOK THE SON IN HIS WRATH
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mt 27:46) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Ps 22:1)

CHRIST’S HEART “MELTED LIKE WAX” IN INTENSE AGONY
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.[internal parts or organs] (Ps 22:14) Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. (Ps 69:20)

THE “TERRORS OF DEATH” FELL UPON CHRIST, HORROR OVERWHELMED HIM
My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me. (Ps 55:4,5) I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. (Ps 69:2) Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15) The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. (Ps 116:3)

CHRIST’S SOUL WAS PIERCED WITH “A SWORD” (THE WRATH OF GOD)
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling [my precious life] from the power of the dog.[figurative for Gentile enemies] (Ps 22:20) For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping,Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. (Ps 102:9,10) Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the Man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

CHRIST WAS SMITTEN BY GOD AND AFFLICTED
For they persecute Him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (Ps 69:26) Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isa 53:4)

CHRIST BORE THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR PEACE
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.(Isa 53:5)

CHRIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS AND OUR GUILT
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken. (Isa 53:8)

CHRIST MADE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-12)

Since all these verse clearly reveal Penal Substitution, you have denied all of these Scripture by rejecting that doctrine. We could add many more verses. But just one verse from 1 Peter 3:18 summarizes all of the above:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, [PENAL SUBSTITUTION] that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

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I'll leave John Caldwell to answer in detail, as the post is directed to him, but none of them "clearly reveal Penal Substitution", just poor exegesis.

Enoch111 said:

PART II

TOTAL DARKNESS PREVENTED MEN FROM SEEING THE AGONY OF CHRIST
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour...And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.(Mt 27:45; Lk 23:44,45) As many were astonied [astonished] at thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men: (Isa 52:14)

THE FATHER TEMPORARILY FORSOOK THE SON IN HIS WRATH
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mt 27:46) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Ps 22:1)

CHRIST’S HEART “MELTED LIKE WAX” IN INTENSE AGONY
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.[internal parts or organs] (Ps 22:14) Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. (Ps 69:20)

THE “TERRORS OF DEATH” FELL UPON CHRIST, HORROR OVERWHELMED HIM
My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me. (Ps 55:4,5) I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. (Ps 69:2) Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15) The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. (Ps 116:3)

CHRIST’S SOUL WAS PIERCED WITH “A SWORD” (THE WRATH OF GOD)
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling [my precious life] from the power of the dog.[figurative for Gentile enemies] (Ps 22:20) For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. (Ps 102:9,10) Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the Man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

CHRIST WAS SMITTEN BY GOD AND AFFLICTED
For they persecute Him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (Ps 69:26) Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isa 53:4)

CHRIST BORE THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR PEACE
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.(Isa 53:5)

CHRIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS AND OUR GUILT
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken. (Isa 53:8)

CHRIST MADE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-12)

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Excellent posts.

And now the Lord of glory was dying, a ransom for the race. In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy.All was oppressive gloom. It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity.Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. DA 752.4

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all.He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father’s mercy and pardoning love.Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father’s reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.
Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice.He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. DA 753.2
With amazement angels witnessed the Saviour’s despairing agony. The hosts of heaven veiled their faces from the fearful sight. Inanimate nature expressed sympathy with its insulted and dying Author. The sun refused to look upon the awful scene.Its full, bright rays were illuminating the earth at midday, when suddenly it seemed to be blotted out. Complete darkness, like a funeral pall, enveloped the cross. “There was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.” There was no eclipse or other natural cause for this darkness, which was as deep as midnight without moon or stars. It was a miraculous testimony given by God that the faith of after generations might be confirmed. DA 753.3
In that thick darkness God’s presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son.Yet His presence was not revealed.Had His glory flashed forth from the cloud, every human beholder would have been destroyed. And in that dreadful hour Christ was not to be comforted with the Father’s presence. He trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him. DA 753.4
In the thick darkness, God veiled the last human agony of His Son. All who had seen Christ in His suffering had been convicted of His divinity.That face, once beheld by humanity, was never forgotten. As the face of Cain expressed his guilt as a murderer, so the face of Christ revealed innocence, serenity, benevolence,—the image of God. But His accusers would not give heed to the signet of heaven. Through long hours of agony Christ had been gazed upon by the jeering multitude. Now He was mercifully hidden by the mantle of God. DA 754.1
The silence of the grave seemed to have fallen upon Calvary. A nameless terror held the throng that was gathered about the cross. The cursing and reviling ceased in the midst of half-uttered sentences. Men, women, and children fell prostrate upon the earth. Vivid lightnings occasionally flashed forth from the cloud, and revealed the cross and the crucified Redeemer. Priests, rulers, scribes, executioners, and the mob, all thought that their time of retribution had come. After a while some whispered that Jesus would now come down from the cross. Some attempted to grope their way back to the city, beating their breasts and wailing in fear. DA 754.2
At the ninth hour the darkness lifted from the people, but still enveloped the Saviour. It was a symbol of the agony and horror that weighed upon His heart. No eye could pierce the gloom that surrounded the cross, and none could penetrate the deeper gloom that enshrouded the suffering soul of Christ. The angry lightnings seemed to be hurled at Him as He hung upon the cross. Then “Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” As the outer gloom settled about the Saviour, many voices exclaimed: The vengeance of heaven is upon Him.The bolts of God’s wrath are hurled at Him, because He claimed to be the Son of God. Many who believed on Him heard His despairing cry. Hope left them. If God had forsaken Jesus, in what could His followers trust? DA 754.3
When the darkness lifted from the oppressed spirit of Christ, He revived to a sense of physical suffering, and said, “I thirst.” One of the Roman soldiers, touched with pity as he looked at the parched lips, took a sponge on a stalk of hyssop, and dipping it in a vessel of vinegar, offered it to Jesus. But the priests mocked at His agony. When darkness covered the earth, they had been filled with fear; as their terror abated, the dread returned that Jesus would yet escape them. His words, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” they had misinterpreted. With bitter contempt and scorn they said, “This man calleth for Elias.” The last opportunity to relieve His sufferings they refused. “Let be,” they said, “let us see whether Elias will come to save Him.” DA 754.4
The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured—the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father’s face—speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,—offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee. He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself

Ellen White. Desire of Ages

Hidden In Him said:

This is what I have always believed myself. The "spiritual death" teaching never made sense to me, nor do I see any scripture that teaches Jesus was tormented by Satan for three days and three nights. It says He went and preached to the spirits in prison, which means He went to the Paradise side of Sheol and preached to the Old Testament saints who were still awaiting their Deliverer. He preaching to them that He was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, and through faith in His sacrifice they then ascended with Him into Heaven, having been atoned for perfectly, Christ having fully restored their innocence before God. But never did this involve Jesus being tormented in Hell. The warning in Genesis was simply that the soul that sinned would die. So physical death and detainment in Paradise was the punishment for those who had sinned, but the torments of Hell were for those who rejected God, which is something Christ never did.

Nor did the saints.

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Man. There's a lot of conjecture there. Paradise in sheol? Jesus preached to spirits in prison? Have another look at the original verses that speak of that and ask yourself two questions...how did Jesus preach to those in prison...and when.

"penal substitution,"

brakelite said:

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all.He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father’s mercy and pardoning love.Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father’s reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.

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more steps on that ladder bro k

The Wrath of Yah Against Sin:
Who told you that you were naked?

brakelite said:

Man. There's a lot of conjecture there. Paradise in sheol? Jesus preached to spirits in prison? Have another look at the original verses that speak of that and ask yourself two questions...how did Jesus preach to those in prison...and when.

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LoL. Yes, I know this is contrary to your denomination's doctrine, Brakelite. But to tackle this discussion we'd have to cover like three separate debates, yes?

Not sure if that won't just end up being a lot of wasted posts for both of us. We're both firmly set in our beliefs here, which means it would go on forever. I would start in on it with you, but wisdom says not today, LoL.

To rejectthe substitutionary nature of the cross, is to deny the entire sacrificial system, from the first slain aminal that clothed Adam and Eve, through the sanctuary services of the OT, to the Lamb as it were slain in the midst of heaven.
My neighbour may forgive me for stealing his car, but he will still want his car back. The mercy of God is revealed in forgiveness, the justice of God and the righteous demands of the law were met at the cross. I may be forgiven of my sin, yet the wages of that sin is still death. The question remains...whose death?

Hidden In Him said:

Yes, I know this is contrary to your denomination's doctrine, Brakelite

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Well, not just my domination my friend. We don't hold to anything without good reason. The bible describes paradise as the location of God's throne, and...and...then there's...and dont forget...but of course we need to consider....but you don't want to get into that here huh.

brakelite said:

To reject the substitutionary nature of the cross, is to deny the entire sacrificial system, from the first slain animal that clothed Adam and Eve, through the sanctuary services of the OT, to the Lamb as it were slain in the midst of heaven.

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I think they would argue that those lambs slain in the sacrificial system were substitutes for the True Lamb of God, yes, but that He was a substitute for us is a different thing. The word propitiation runs close to this thought, but they are actually two different concepts on closer examination.

brakelite said:

and...and...then there's...and dont forget...but of course we need to consider....

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LoL! Very succinctly put : ) I've never seen an argument summed up so quickly before.
There's a few on this Forum who I truly wish could follow your example here.

There's an old true story I've told before, of two Chinese brothers living together in San Francisco at the turn of last century. One got into a fight one night on his way home from work and killed his assailant. Witnesses described him to the police as they knew him from the neighborhood. He rushed home, changed his clothes, and scarpered.
Meanwhile, brother comes home, goes to bed, gets awakened by knock on door, police with warrant search room finds bloody clothes and arrest wrong brother who without objecting was finally executed. Guilty brother reads about execution in papers, returns home and confesses to police who let him go...price paid already.

Hidden In Him said:

I think they would argue that those lambs slain in the sacrificial system were substitutes for the True Lamb of God, yes, but that He was a substitute for us is a different thing. The word propitiation runs close to this thought, but they are actually two different concepts on closer examination.

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Yet in both cases, the Lamb and the lamb, sins were laid upon the sacrifice...our sins. And in both cases, death was the result, their death rather than ours.

brakelite said:

Yet in both cases, the Lamb and the lamb, sins were laid upon the sacrifice...our sins. And in both cases, death was the result, their death rather than ours.

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Only in our case, both we and Christ die.

See, this is where one's view on the Underworld really comes into play (but I will knock it off after this, since I know you are strongly opposed to this part of it). But for me, the price that had to be paid was appeasement of a Perfect God so that the saints could enter Heaven and be with Him forever. Our physical death was a foregone conclusion regardless. But the OT saints belonged to Him, only they could not ascend to be with Him until propitiation was made for it. However, the gates of Hell no longer prevailed against the church once His sacrifice had been made, and they rose with Him to be with the Father...

But I don't want to go on. You were decent enough to cut it short so I should too. Just pointing out that one's view on the Underworld greatly colors how one would answer this question.

brakelite said:

The question remains...whose death?

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the first born. Same is asked of His disciples in Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Too many other verses to post. That which is first is flesh. Flesh crucified. The first born ...is whose death. As Paul said (inspired by the Spirit) his flesh was crucified with Christ...his first born TO establish the second. There is depth (treasure laid up in heaven)to Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

He takes away the flesh...that he may establish the Spirit. “Establish” unmovable, unshakable, enduring, fails not, anchored in God. 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

He takes away the first...that He may ESTABLISH the second, a Life giving Spirit. He takes away the image of the earthy...that He may establish the image of the heavenly.

Hidden In Him said:

I think they would argue that those lambs slain in the sacrificial system were substitutes for the True Lamb of God, yes, but that He was a substitute for us is a different thing. The word propitiation runs close to this thought, but they are actually two different concepts on closer examination.

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I agree. They were propitiation.
The lambs etc were not punished.

I believe Jesus was a substitution for us but not a penal substitution.

In Isaiah 53:10 it says "he makes himself an offering for sin".
By becoming a "sin offering", a "propitiation", a propitiary sacrifice freely offered, Jesus atoned for our sins and made satisfaction to the Father.

Thomas Aquinas the great Catholic Theologian says:
He properly atones for an offence who offers something which the offended one loves equally, or even more than he detested the offence. But by suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offence of the whole human race. (Summa, Tertia Pars, Q48, Art 2)

We can offer God nothing worthy of atonement but Jesus could and did.

I think this explains it well.
In his mediatorial role, Christ, living a sinless life and dying a selfless death, obtains favour from God so that he can approach and beseech Him for mercy and forgiveness on behalf of sinful man. God is not required to offer forgiveness, yet Christ’s sacrifice appeals to the intrinsic love and longsuffering of God. Christ as the obedient son who sacrifices himself, intercedes to obtain the mercy of the Father for those who are to be adopted in God’s family. From his paternal qualities of pity and love, the Father grants an avenue of forgiveness for mankind. (How Can I get To Heaven by Robert Sungenis

John Caldwell said:

@marks ,

Are you familiar with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus and Recapitulation (not that I hold Recapitulation Theory but concerning the reason Christ had to die)? I believe that Christ had to die in terms of becoming the "second Adam". Martyr and Irenaeus (more direct with Irenaeus) would present this along the lines of succeeding where Adam failed. He was made the perfect "High Priest".

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Wouldn't "succeeding where Adam failed" mean eating the tree of life and living forever? Without death?

Much love!

John Caldwell said:

What I mean by "representation" is as a "second Adam". Adam represented Jesus (we were children of Adam). But Adam was not our substitute. Likewise, Christ was not our substitute but our representative. I think this is why Scripture uses things like "children of God", "second Adam", "Son of Man", and the like rather than speaking of Christ as our substitute.

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Are you talking about Federalism?

Mungo said:

God is not required to offer forgiveness, yet Christ’s sacrifice appeals to the intrinsic love and longsuffering of God.

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God is faithful . . . and just . . . to forgive . . .

I believe Jesus' death had a very particular, you might say forensic effect that brings us from death to life, from condemnation to family.

Much love!