The law that "was added because of transgressions" cannot be referring to the commandments.

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When a law is added to the law, and then subtracted, what's left?

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  • lawlessness

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
    2

Truther

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Why are you avoiding my question? Be fruitful and multiply is one of the 613 commandments of the Mosaic law.

1 Cor. 14 instructs women to be under obedience to their husbands which is a reference to Genesis 3:16

If you continue to ignore my points rather than address them, I can only assume you prefer to be ignored as well.
1Cor 14:21 is speaking about women’s obedience?

What Law was this verse quoting of the 613 commands?
 

farouk

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Why are you avoiding my question? Be fruitful and multiply is one of the 613 commandments of the Mosaic law.

1 Cor. 14 instructs women to be under obedience to their husbands which is a reference to Genesis 3:16

If you continue to ignore my points rather than address them, I can only assume you prefer to be ignored as well.
The church is not under the law, as was Israel in the Old Testament.

The law was changed (Hebrews 7.12).

What we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

As a dispensationalist, this is how I see it...
 

shnarkle

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1Cor 14:21 is speaking about women’s obedience?

You just supplied the 14th chapter. Read it yourself. it's right there in black and white. Why are you asking me these questions? Aren't you familiar with the passages you're asking me to look at?

What Law was this verse quoting of the 613 commands?

I supplied it for you already. Read my previous post.
 

shnarkle

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The church is not under the law, as was Israel in the Old Testament.

False. "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

To give to whom??? "us" is a direct reference to the new testament church.

The law was changed (Hebrews 7.12).

That is an explicit reference to the sacrificial system, not the obligation of the law. You're conflating the two. There is the obligation of the law and the curse or penalty of the law. When one is "under" the law, they are under the curse because of transgressions. Paul admits he is "under the law to Christ". He must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover his sins

What we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

Only if you no longer sin.
 

Truther

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You just supplied the 14th chapter. Read it yourself. it's right there in black and white. Why are you asking me these questions? Aren't you familiar with the passages you're asking me to look at?



I supplied it for you already. Read my previous post.
Do you know which of the 613 commandments of the Law is that 1 Cor 14:21 is referring to?
 

Truther

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The church is not under the law, as was Israel in the Old Testament.

The law was changed (Hebrews 7.12).

What we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

As a dispensationalist, this is how I see it...
And sinners are still under the old Law
 

shnarkle

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Do you know which of the 613 commandments of the Law is that 1 Cor 14:21 is referring to?

I'm done playing 20 questions on your wild goose chase. I will honor your wishes as a Christian to play by the golden rule and treat you with the same level of respect which you have chosen to bestow upon me and click "Ignore".
 

ReChoired

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Do you know which of the 613 commandments of the Law is that 1 Cor 14:21 is referring to?
Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so hear goes:

[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration.

"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

As a side note:

The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link

[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)

[6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

"... We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:

From Makkot 24a:

"דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום

§ Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]

...

Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:

Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]

...

Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;

It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Berei**** until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - Are there really 613 Mitzvot? : Gematria

[7.] Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near.

Exo_34:28"... the ten commandments."

Deu_4:13 "... ten commandments ..."

Deu_10:4 "... the ten commandments, ..."​

In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant. More on that later as needful.​

[8.] The "ten commandments" that God spake in Person to all the people without the mediator Moses, were a complete Law, nothing further being added unto them, except later as to be written in a scroll/book through a mediator (Moses):

Deu_5:22 "... he added no more. ..."​

[9.] The "ten commandments" were written by God's own finger originally on sapphire stone and which second set was placed into the "pattern" Ark of the Covenant in the earthly tabernacle (Exodus 25:16,21).

[10.] The other precepts, statutes, laws, commands, ordinances, etc were all given by God through the mediator Moses, to be written by Moses' hand, and placed not inside of the Ark, but to be placed in the side of the Ark:

Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

So, while important, God makes distinction, by several means. The many other things which God gave fall under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments:

Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.​

and as such '613' probably wouldn't even come close to the depth of God's Ten Commandments, which are the expansion of His perfect character of Love, which itself is expressed in the greatest (Deuteronomy 6:5) and second greatest commandments (Leviticus 19:17-18) (both of whose contexts are the Ten Commandments, see Deut. 5, etc).​

[11.] The '613' enumeration only considers material within the texts of the Torah (Gen-Deut), and not any other material from the Nevi'im or Ketuvim, as if God somehow stopped talking and giving commands through men, priests or prophets or kings, see Isaiah 8:20 (Law and Testimony)

[12.] Even from a basic search of scripture, the Torah itself makes differences between words:

Gen 26:5 KJB Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 26:5 KJB Str. BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

Gen 26:5 HOT עקב אשׁר־שׁמע אברהם בקלי וישׁמר משׁמרתי מצותי חקותי ותורתי׃

Gen 26:5 HOT Str. עקבH6118 אשׁרH834 שׁמעH8085 אברהםH85 בקליH6963 וישׁמרH8104 משׁמרתיH4931 מצותיH4687 חקותיH2708 ותורתי׃H8451 (apologies for how this posts, not much can be done about that, I used highligher to mark the beginning and ending, so while the sentence reads left to right, each individual word correctly reads right to left)

Gen 26:5 HOT Translit. ëqev ásher-shäma av'rähäm B'qoliy waYish'mor mish'mar'Tiy mitz'wotay chuQôtay w'tôrotäy​

Notice the distinction made between H4687 (mitzvot) and H8451 (torah), which is again found in Exodus 16:28,

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

This should suffice for now.
 

Truther

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I'm done playing 20 questions on your wild goose chase. I will honor your wishes as a Christian to play by the golden rule and treat you with the same level of respect which you have chosen to bestow upon me and click "Ignore".
1 Cor 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.


Isaiah 28
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


You just saw it....Paul taught the book of Isaiah is the Law.
 

Truther

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Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so hear goes:

[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration.

"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

As a side note:

The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link

[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)

[6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

"... We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:

From Makkot 24a:

"דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום

§ Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]

...

Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:

Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]

...

Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;

It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Berei**** until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - Are there really 613 Mitzvot? : Gematria

[7.] Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near........

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

This should suffice for now.
The answer.
1 Cor 14:21 refers to Isaiah 28 as "The Law".

This means the Apostle Paul taught that the books of the Prophets were also the Law.

This debunks the modern theory that the 1st 5 books are the Law.

Jesus quoted Psalms as the Law also.

Time for modern theology to line up with the Bible, huh?
 

Waiting on him

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Hi Enoch

There is no internal conflict. Only those under the law without the Spirit have a struggle. That struggle under the law is what Paul described brilliantly in Romans 7, but numbskulls still think Paul is talking about a Christian, when it plainly is about the LAW trying to be kept with an intact sin nature (Romans 7:13). Chapter 8 introduces the SPIRIT. Romans 8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death (as in Romans 7). It also says further that Christ condemned sin in the flesh. That means sin is no longer in our nature because we have been given a new nature. I'm curious what you think being born again means to you?
Where does numbskull fall under the law your declaring?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Numbskulls are those who twist scripture for their own twisted minds. The twisting cuts off blood flow to the brain and causes it to become numb. LOL

<numbskull>— Q~that Christ condemned sin in the flesh .. means sin is no longer in our nature because we have been given a new nature.~QCharismaticLady