Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”
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John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
What verse are you referencing?
(I was referencing John 14:6 in concluding Christ is the Life).
Interesting passages to look at, the Lamb slain . . . When you really look closely, I don't think it actually teaches that.
The clause "from the foundation of the world" can grammatically go with "the Lamb slain", or, "whose name's remain written". In the parallel passage, later in Revelation, God says the same phrase, "from the foundation of the world", and "whose names remain written" but not "the lamb slain".
I know, I'm tipping a sacred cow for many. Even so.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The simplest understanding taken straight from the Book is that there are some whose names remain written (written is perfect tense) in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and those whose names do not remain written will wonder, and worship the beast.
And this book of life is the book of life of the Lamb slain.
This is grammatically correct, and supported by the second passage.
Thoughts?
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Why would Christ be the Lamb slain prior to the transgression?
My answer has already been said. I believe Adam was created flesh, which falls short of the mark of divine righteousness.
I believe Adam was created innocent, but we are born corrupt. Adam was created in fellowship with God, but we are born out of fellowship.
And I believe we need to be brought back to fellowship which is our reconciliation.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
John 17
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Much love!
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I do not believe we are born having sinned, but corrupt in the sense of being corruptible flesh. Like Adam we will sin.
I guess that's my question. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are asking.
I agree, that we are not born having sinned. But I believe the corruption that resides in our flesh causes us one and all to sin. But that Adam was not corrupted that way.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I think we are saying the same thing.
You say spiritual life is a relationship with God and I say it is being in Christ and Christ in us.
The next question I suppose would be defining the relationship.
I believe it is more than fellowship. Literally I believe this refers to being in Christ and Him in us (conformed to the image of Christ).
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I agree it is a possibility but I think it refers to the Lamb (and by implication the book). I believe it shows us redemptive history as a whole.
I've been suspecting for some time that we much of the time are saying the same thing in different ways.
Much love!
What you don't say is why Christ had to bear my sin and what it means that Christ became a curse for us. I know the answer to both these things, but I don't think you do.
Justification is a legal term (cf. Deuteronomy 25:1), and God is a Judge (Psalms 7:11).
What nonsense is this? Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification, the first fruits from the dead. He paid the penalty that was due for our sins, and God accepted it when He raised Him from the dead. And as a result, I have eternal life right now John 10:27-28). Read 1 John 5:11-13; it is placed in the past and is effectual in the present. I have been raised with Christ (Colossians 3:1) and indeed, I am seated with Him and in Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5-6). This is part of the eschatological 'already but not yet.' These things have not yet happened in time, but they have happened in te mind of God and are so certain that He speaks of them as if they already are (Isaiah 46:10 etc.).
Not at all! Christ suffered separation from God so that His people will never be separated from Him (Romans 8:38-39).
But Christ was the eternal sinless Son of God, who alone could offer the one perfect, acceptable sacrifice for sin.
'Thy death, not mine, O Christ,
Has paid the ransom due.
Then thousand deaths like mine would have been all too few.
To whom save Thee, who canst alone
For sin atone, Lord, shall I flee?' [Horatius Bonar]
But that the Lord Jesus had to suffer is shown by Mark 15:23. The wine mixed with myrrh was an analgesic, and He must suffer the full weight of God's wrath - not against Him, but - against sin. When the cup of God's wrath was fully drained at the 9th hour, then He could request a drink (John 19:28) in order to fulfill Psalms 69:21.
See above. Believers have eternal life right now.
Christ did not experience spiritual death. He voluntarily 'gave up His Spirit' (John 19:30). Christ experienced separation from the felt presence of His Father between the 6th and 9th hours (Mark 15:33) so that believers shall never do so.
This is complete nonsense from start to finish. The monkey is playing with the watch again.
Hebrews 1
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
What are your thoughts on this bolded part?
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
That goes to the heart of the issue. Christ had to suffer and die to redeem mankind from the power of sin and death that had held mankind captive.
Hi Steve,
Are you certain that we are not now seated together in the heavenlies? All of us together, hid with Christ in God? That "we have a building from God, eternal in the heavens"?
Those he called, he also justified, and those he justified, he also glorified. All the same verb tenses.
We've been called. We've been justified. We don't see either of those, we accept it as a matter of faith. We've been glorified. What does this mean?
What about being born the spirit child of God, alive with God in the heavenly realm. What would I see if I say the new creation God has made you to be, if I saw you and saw what God sees when He sees you?
Much love!
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