Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

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ReChoired

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Do you see a resurrection of the saints here, or the exact OPPOSITE?

The location of this “reign” of Jesus and the saints, for “a thousand years” is never said to be on the plague wracked, utterly sin polluted and totally cursed and devastated “earth”, wherein even the upper heaven [atmosphere] is burned away by the second Advent [Genesis 3:17, 5:29, 8:21; Isaiah 34:4; 2 Peter 3:10-12; Revelation 6:14; 11:19, 15:1,6,8, 16:9,17-21, 18:4,8 21:9, 22:18]. So likewise for the passages of “Isaiah 2, 11, 65; Amos 9; Zechariah 14”. Read prayerfully and carefully for oneself. Where then is the “thousand year” reign of Jesus and the saints to be? It is to be in Heaven, the “third” [2 Corinthians 12:2].

Notice Isaiah 2:4 in which it speaks of, “... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” That is the earth “made new”, wherein it is said in Revelation 21:4, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” The earth is not “made new” until after the 1,000 years, not before.

Notice Isaiah 11:4-10, in which the complete destruction of the wicked takes place first (as in Revelation 20:9-10, 11-15), and then follows the statements about the New Heaven and New Earth, which comes after the 1,000 years, see Isaiah 11:9, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” See Isaiah 11:6-8 and compare to Isaiah 65:20-25, 66:22-23. See that Isaiah 66:16 and its events, the destruction of the wicked in entirety, come before those other events, which take place in the earth “made new”.

Notice Amos 9:14-15 in which the events, “... they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.”, and of the planting and building are in the earth “made new”, after the events of the destruction of the wicked in Amos 9:8, which does not take place until after the 1,000 years as Isaiah 24 and Revelation 20 (and other places) show.

Notice Zechariah 14 carefully, and see that this is not referring to the Second Advent (the beginning of the 1,000 years), wherein the “saints” are “caught up” to “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), as also John 14:3 says, “... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”, but refers to the Third Advent, wherein the Lord Jesus comes “down” and touches the sin polluted earth, along with the saints and New Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives, as in Revelation 20, at the ending of the 1,000 years, and thus metes out judgment, executing all the wicked, and recreating the heavens and earth. See Zechariah 14:12-13,21 in connection to Revelation 20:9-10,11-15.

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].
Do you see a resurrection of the saints here, or the exact OPPOSITE?
Consider:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(that is, God shall bring all the resurrected and translated saints back to Heaven with Jesus; see Psalms 24, in its second fulfillment, see context, and John 14:1-3)​

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul is citing from Job:

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

(the Heavens pass away at the Second Advent, see Revelation 6:14; 2 Peter 3:7(a.))​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

(the wrath of God is the 7 last Plagues, see Revelation)​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

Behold, he cometh with clouds [the saints and angels]; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
I noticed that you had to add the words "the saints and angels" to the text, when "clouds" in scripture are associated with angels. However, even if we include some person that might come with Jesus' return, it could only be such as Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits, for they are the only human beings to have entered Heaven physically besides Jesus.

Yet, Jude 1:14,15 in context is referring to the return of Jesus Christ in His 2nd and 3rd Advents. So, it applies to angels and human beings. In Revelation 1:7, this is referring to the second Advent specifically, as notice it gives several groups of persons, [1] "he" - Jesus, [2] "with clouds" - the holy angels (see references above), [3] "every eye" - all living persons, wicked and righteous, [4] "they also which pierced him" - the Sanhedrin who condemned Jesus will be specially raised (see special resurrection references above). Again ,"clouds" are angels, but even if we include human beings, they can only be those ones mentioned, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits. No others have entered Heaven physically yet.


[01] Enoch – Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5 KJB

[02] Elijah – 2 Kings 2:1-23 KJB

[10] Moses – Matthew 16:28, 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; John 11:25; 2 Peter 1:16-18; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 KJB

[11] Firstfruits; a select Group around the locality of Jerusalem – Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8 KJB

While Adventist doctrine has some teachings which are biblical, they have other teachings which are not. And some are key teachings.
Which ones? I haven't seen any unbiblical doctrines or unbiblical teachings, including the ones mentioned above.
 
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brakelite

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How can the time of the resurrection of the saints also be the time of the Second Coming? Do you see a resurrection of the saints here, or the exact OPPOSITE?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

Behold, he cometh with clouds [the saints and angels]; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

While Adventist doctrine has some teachings which are biblical, they have other teachings which are not. And some are key teachings.
The resurrection takes place at the time Jesus returns because we are told...
KJV 1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

KJV Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Two resurrections....book ends to the millennium.
 

Enoch111

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The resurrection takes place at the time Jesus returns because we are told...
Not *returns* but COMES FOR HIS SAINTS momentarily and in the air (as the passage plainly states). However, when He actually returns at His Second Coming He comes WITH His saints (already pointed out and ignored).
 

ReChoired

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Not *returns* but COMES FOR HIS SAINTS momentarily and in the air (as the passage plainly states). ...
"comes for his saints", from where to where?

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​

The King James English word “coming” is translated from [G3952], “παρουσία”, “parousia”.and may be seen in many other passages [see also 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12 KJB]:

Matthew 24:3 KJB - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27 KJB - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37 KJB - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39 KJB - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJB - For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJB - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJB - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJB - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 KJB - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJB - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

James 5:7 KJB - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

James 5:8 KJB - Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16 KJB - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4 KJB - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:12 KJB - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 John 2:28 KJB - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.​

There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at the Father's appointed time:

[1] 'to come and/or arrive', [G2064], “ἔρχομαι” “erchomai” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7 KJB],

[2] 'to appear visibly', [G3700], “ὀπτάνομαι”, “optanomai” [Hebrews 9:28 KJB],

[3] 'to return', [G360], “ἀναλύω”, “analyō” [Luke 12:36 KJB],

[4] 'to reveal', [G602], “ἀποκάλυψις”, “apokalypsis” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30 KJB],

[5] 'to manifest', [G2015], “ἐπιφάνεια”, “epiphaneia” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13 KJB],

[6] 'make manifest', [G5319], “φανερόω”, “phaneroō” [1 Peter 5:4 KJB],

[7] 'come', [G2240], “ἥκω”, “hēkō” [Revelation 2:25 KJB],

[8] 'to return', [G5290], “ὑποστρέφω”, “hypostrephō” [Luke 19:12 KJB].​

See also:

Matthew 24:37 KJB - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 KJB - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luke 17:30 KJB - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​
 
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brakelite

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Not *returns* but COMES FOR HIS SAINTS momentarily and in the air (as the passage plainly states). However, when He actually returns at His Second Coming He comes WITH His saints (already pointed out and ignored).
Oh,I agree with that. That does not however refute the resurrection as taking place when He comes for His saints...all saints both alive and dead...and returns with them in the city at the end of the millennium. It is because you mistakenly believe saints to be already in heaven that confuses the issue for you.
 
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ReChoired

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Oh,I agree with that. That does not however refute the resurrection as taking place when He comes for His saints...all saints both alive and dead...and returns with them in the city at the end of the millennium. It is because you mistakenly believe saints to be already in heaven that confuses the issue for you.
In fact, the whole idea of bodyless 'saints' in Heaven is spiritism. Heaven (3rd) is a tangible place that exists in the universe, for Christ Jesus, in glorified body of "flesh and bones" ascended to it, to the very "right hand" of His Father, and the real throne thereof.

Secondly, why would bodyless 'people' already experiencing the joy/bliss of Heaven (as spiritism teaches) need to come back to earth for 'bodies'? The whole of the spirtistic doctrine is self-refuting, confounded upon itself, and is il-logical. Why even speak of words like 'resurrection' as spiritism teaches no one ever really dies (not even the old man of sin, immortal soul/spirit theology).
 
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marksman

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Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out together.

I haven't always believed what I currently believe, and it took some time to really think and pray about what I believe, and why, and whether those beliefs were true, had any rationality to them, and were biblically sound. In that searching, I found some of the things I believed were untrue, not rational, and incoherent, even dangerous, but was willing to consider what I believed anyway, and in so doing, was willing to change where needful.

So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying.

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

None of us believe what we used to believe for the simple reason the scriptures tell us to grow and mature. What I was when I was 10 years old I am not now because I have grown up (well, that was the idea). When I was born again I knew nothing (Manuel from Fawlty Towers). After 60 years as a Christian, I know everything. Well, that is my story and I am sticking to it.

Sad to say there are a lot of believers who are still wanting milk and eschew the meat. Did you get that? Eschew meat. Boom boom! It might be them or it might be the church system that keeps them babies.

From day one, I was brought up to be a doer, not a pew warmer. Consequently, I was teaching Sunday school at 15 and preaching at 17.

The experts say that you learn the most teaching others. Perhaps that is why I know so much. Why do I keep saying that?

The actual fact of the matter is that as a result, I am a giver. If I am not giving I am not living. I should make a plaque of that and sell them. Make some money. No, it is not money, it is the love of money that is the root of all evil.

Can I finish this with a few verses which we do not seem to hear much about? here they are.....


Ephesians 4:14-16 so that we may no longer be infants, being blown and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the sleight of men, in craftiness to the deceit of error, but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, the Christ, from whom all the body, having been fitted and compacted together through every assisting bond, according to the effectual working of one measure in each part, produces the growth of the body to the building up of itself in love.

Note that we are not to stay infants. We are to grow up. We are to produce growth in the body. Is it happening where you are?
 

ReChoired

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...The experts say that you learn the most teaching others. ...
Jesus the great Master teacher, also employed this, and so called disciples to be apostles, to come to Him, then go for Him, to teach/disciple all nations.
 

ReChoired

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...Note that we are not to stay infants. We are to grow up. We are to produce growth in the body. Is it happening where you are?
Yep, even in the very place of my own mind/heart first of all.
 

ReChoired

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I believe that age does not ever sanctify error, and so that even if an error is hundreds to thousands of years old, it never becomes truth, even as that 'old serpent', satan, in either faith (venom; spiritual) and/or practice (fang; natural) is not ever made righteous by time.
 

ReChoired

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I believe that a National Sunday Law (U.S., and later International) will soon be passed, based upon Prophecy, Revelation 17, and that many will be, and already are deceived about God's law.

I believe that Michael the archangel is another name/designation for the person of the eternal Son of God (aka Jesus).
 

Helen

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I believe that a National Sunday Law (U.S., and later International) will soon be passed, based upon Prophecy, Revelation 17, and that many will be, and already are deceived about God's law.

I believe that Michael the archangel is another name/designation for the person of the eternal Son of God (aka Jesus).


and I believe-

...' that age does not ever sanctify error, and so that even if an error is hundreds to thousands of years old, it never becomes truth' :)
 

Enoch111

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I believe that Michael the archangel is another name/designation for the person of the eternal Son of God (aka Jesus).
Another erroneous belief of the SDA church. Having gone through your official Statement of Faith, it is sad to see that there is a mixture of truth and error in it.

As to Michael the archangel, if he was indeed Jesus the eternal Son of God, he would have rebuke the devil when the latter contended about the body of Moses. Instead he said "The LORD rebuke thee". That should settle the issue.

"The LORD" (YHWH = Yahweh) as well as "the LORD of hosts" is a designation for both the Father and the Son in the OT, since they are both God. Thus we read in the OT:

ZECHARIAH 3
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD [PRE-INCARNATE JESUS, THE SON], and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD
[THE SON] said unto Satan, The LORD [THE FATHER] rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD [THE FATHER] that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And He
[THE FATHER] answered and spake unto those that stood before Him [THE FATHER], saying, Take away the filthy garments from him [Joshua]. And unto him [Joshua] he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I [Zechariah] said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him [Joshua] with garments. And the angel of the LORD [JESUS] stood by.
6 And the angel of the LORD
[JESUS] protested [affirmed solemnly] unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts [BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON CALLED THUS]; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they
are men wondered at: for, behold, I [THE FATHER] will bring forth my servant [THE SON] the BRANCH [JESUS].
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone
shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts [THE FATHER], and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts [THE FATHER], shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
 
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ReChoired

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and I believe-

...' that age does not ever sanctify error, and so that even if an error is hundreds to thousands of years old, it never becomes truth' :)
Glad that we agree on the statement, but disappointed about the details to which our respective statements refer to in faith and practice, doctrine and deed.

So, in replying as you have to my previous two beliefs (NSL and Michael), I take it that you do not believe that those two things are true? If so, would you be able to share why not, and would you listen to what I might share in return?
 

ReChoired

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Another erroneous belief of the SDA church. Having gone through your official Statement of Faith, it is sad to see that there is a mixture of truth and error in it.

As to Michael the archangel, if he was indeed Jesus the eternal Son of God, he would have rebuke the devil when the latter contended about the body of Moses. Instead he said "The LORD rebuke thee". That should settle the issue.

"The LORD" (YHWH = Yahweh) as well as "the LORD of hosts" is a designation for both the Father and the Son in the OT, since they are both God. Thus we read in the OT:

ZECHARIAH 3
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD [PRE-INCARNATE JESUS, THE SON], and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD
[THE SON] said unto Satan, The LORD [THE FATHER] rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD [THE FATHER] that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?...

You just quoted Zechariah 3, correct and stated that "the angel" (vs 1; The Son, as messenger) "of the LORD" (Father), was identified (vs 2) as also "LORD" (the Son) which stated to satan, "The LORD [THE FATHER] rebuke thee ..."?

Therefore, you, as we do, in Zechariah 3 , have the Son saying, "The LORD (The Father) rebuke thee (satan)." and yet in Jude, you say the Son cannot say this, why?

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.​

Do the same as you have for Zechariah, in that "Michael the archangel" is the "angel (Son) of the LORD (Father)", who says to satan again, "The LORD (Father) rebuke thee (satan).", since in both instances the Son came on behalf of the Father's will as Highest Messenger of the kingdom of Heaven. All that Michael the archangel means is that, "Who is as like God the highest messenger", and who can this be but the express image of the Father, specifically the person of the Son (and dealing with the resurrection of Moses)?

Why would the Son directly rebuke the devil (satan) in either case on His own behalf, and in His own name, when He (the Son) in both instances came on behalf of the Father, in His Father's name and will and word?
 

ReChoired

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As stated I believe that the Bible in Revelation 13 & 17, and many other places speaks of a coming National Sunday Law in the United States and also throughout the world, here is some evidence of that:



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"... Maybe it’s time to declare a national sabbath. Maybe it’s time to step back from the scandalmongering and assess who we are right now. ..." - NY Times; March 25, 2019 - Opinion | We’ve All Just Made Fools of Ourselves — Again

They are feeding the thought to the public, for the movement will come from the grass roots 'change' (Jesuit) movements and will affect the political leaders who desire offices, money, power and thus votes.

Rev_13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.​
 
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aspen

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Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out together.

I haven't always believed what I currently believe, and it took some time to really think and pray about what I believe, and why, and whether those beliefs were true, had any rationality to them, and were biblically sound. In that searching, I found some of the things I believed were untrue, not rational, and incoherent, even dangerous, but was willing to consider what I believed anyway, and in so doing, was willing to change where needful.

So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying.

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

I believe my ideas about God do not capture who He is. I believe love is our sanctification and necessary work in this age. I believe knowing involving the heart, mind, and gut - it cannot be expressed only as words.
 

ReChoired

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As stated I believe that the Bible in Revelation 13 & 17, and many other places speaks of a coming National Sunday Law in the United States and also throughout the world, here is some evidence of that:...
"... In our industrialized, digitized, pressurized world, it may be hard to imagine there was once a time without the sound of text messages, the sight of skyscrapers and the smell of car exhaust.

A time when the human impact on the earth was reverential and humanity viewed their mission as a steward of the planet and caretaker of everything therein.

You would probably need to go back to Biblical times when Adam and Eve walked alone in the Garden of Eden when God concluded the six days of creation with a cessation of all further work.

This day of rest called the Sabbath, or in Hebrew Shabbat, became enshrined in Mosaic law with the Ten Commandments. To this day, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have a version of a day of rest with adherents citing benefits far beyond the religious or spiritual.

There are many examples of senior corporate executives and celebrities who have found within the day of rest, an opportunity for rejuvenation that strengthens their efforts during the rest of the week. Former Treasury Secretary Jack Lew, who also served as Chief of Staff for President Barack Obama and former Senator Joseph Lieberman all managed to observe the Sabbath while juggling high-profile roles at the highest level of government service. “[R]egardless of one’s religion, or frankly whether one considers oneself religious, there’s a powerful message and purpose to the Sabbath,” says Lieberman, “[t]he gift of rest is desperately needed in our world today, where people work so hard almost every day, and yearn for meaning and find it hard to locate in our popular culture.” Today, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner make Shabbat observance a priority, balancing their civic duties with their religious obligations.

Randi Zuckerberg, former Director of Market Development and spokesperson for Facebook, and a sister of the company’s co-founder and CEO Mark Zuckerberg, “I’m completely unable to be creative when I’m glued to my phone, Instagram, LinkedIn messages. When you’re constantly connected to other people, you can’t unplug. On weekends, we do a ‘digital Shabbat,’ where we turn everything off.”

“In addition to providing personal fulfillment and an unparalleled opportunity for rest and self-reflection, Shabbat can also positively impact the world far beyond the individual,” explains Dr. Menahem David Smadja, a well-known author, economist and religious scholar, “through my 35 years of experience in economics, I have been able to observe the behavior of people on a daily basis, about their spiritual and material response to everyday problems. This socioeconomic and microeconomic base has allowed me to develop macroeconomic solutions on the management of human challenges for the twenty-first century.”

Dr. Smadja’s daring plan calls for an international day of rest (about 53 days per year) plus approximately 15 “holidays” where cumulatively there would be a cessation of all productive activity for approximately 70 days, or about 20% of the year. These days of “non-activity” would help achieve the shared goal outlined in the Paris Climate Conference (COP21) of a 20% reduction of pollution globally by 2050, with the aim of keeping global warming below 2°C.

Smadja brings together social, economic, ecological and theological principles to address the serious issue of climate change.

According to a recent report published by The World Health Organization and The Climate and Clean Air Coalition, a voluntary partnership of governments, intergovernmental organizations, businesses, scientific institutions and civil society organizations committed to protecting the climate and improving air quality through reducing short-lived climate pollutants, air pollution is responsible for an estimated seven million deaths annually, or one in eight premature deaths every year.

These diseases include stroke and heart disease, respiratory illness and cancers. This air pollution the world’s largest environmental health risk comparable in size and scope with well-known health risks such as smoking, high cholesterol, high blood sugar, and obesity.

In addition to the health impact, air pollution has an equally devastating economic impact. Air pollution caused by energy production in the U.S. caused at least $131 billion in damages in the year 2011 alone, and that is a significant improvement compared to the staggering damages calculated in 2002. Worldwide the situation is even more ominous, according to a June 2016 report by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) entitled The Economic Consequences of Outdoor Air Pollution the market impact of outdoor air pollution, which include impacts on labor productivity, health expenditures and agricultural crop yields, are projected to lead to global economic costs that gradually increase to 1% of global GDP by 2060.

The international political response to climate change began at the Rio Earth Summit in 1992, where the ‘Rio Convention’ included the adoption of the UN Framework on Climate Change (UNFCCC). This convention set out a framework for action aimed at stabilizing atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases (GHGs) to avoid “dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system.” The UNFCCC now has a near-universal membership of 195 parties.

However, international political consensus has often come into conflict with business interests. In the United States, coal, oil and natural gas companies, which evidence suggests are responsible for serious environmental damage, represent a powerful and well-funded lobby against climate change based reform.

The tide appears like it may be changing, as the size and scale of climate change denial become better known. Also, multinational companies are seeking public relations and business advantages to a more environmentally-friendly policy. Unilever recently unveiled its sustainability initiatives, including sourcing 100% of its energy for production from renewable sources by 2030 and has already cut its carbon emissions by 43% from 2008 to 2016. Coca-Cola, Ikea, and Walmart are also taking steps toward 100% renewable energy.

This suggests that the time may be right for Dr. Smadja’s proposal. “This frantic race to go faster and faster makes us forget essential things, such as loving ourselves, others and also our earth,” says Smadja, “the result is a global disaster, whose ecological impact is more and more obvious. A Sabbath for ourselves, our industry and our environment is a corrective to these failures. It is a transcendence of spiritual over material will lead to a better sharing of wealth and a measurable improvement to the climate crisis that can bring together populists, progressives and conservatives toward a common cause.” ..." - CEOWOrld Magazine; January 29, 2018 - A Modest Proposal for a Day of Rest | CEOWORLD magazine
 

ReChoired

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As stated I believe that the Bible in Revelation 13 & 17, and many other places speaks of a coming National Sunday Law in the United States and also throughout the world, here is some evidence of that:...
More evidence of why I believe what I believe:

"... Former emergency-room physician and author Matthew Sleeth explained the importance of taking a day of rest in a recent interview with CNN. "For almost 2,000 years," Sleeth said, "Western culture stopped -- primarily on Sunday -- for about 24 hours."

Here are three specific ways the Sunday step-back benefits your business while it helps recharge your batteries, fend off depression and make you more personally productive. ..." - Entrepreneur; June 24, 2018 - Why Sunday Is the Most Important Day of the Week for Your Wellbeing

Buying and selling ... merchants of the earth ...

"... Italy’s Populists Want to Close Stores on Sundays

The idea is to give workers time to spend with their kids and go to church. ...

... Italy long followed the Christian custom of largely shutting down on the Sabbath" - Bloomberg Businessweek; May 1, 2019, 9:01 PM PDT - Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
It is not like we haven't been warning for over 170 years, even as Noah warned for so many years and they also mocked him, at least until the water came from above and below, and then it was all about "Lord, Lord, open to us." Too late, "fools" (Psalms 107:17; Proverbs 1:7).