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Bobby Jo

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Sorry, do what? View attachment 8008

Is that a yea or a nay?

... It's simply a matter of considering the source without having to resort to the cited reference. -- Kinda like a Yugo salesman telling you what a great car they are. I don't need a "test drive" to know that a piece of junk is being hawked. :)

Bobby Jo
 
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Davy

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I asked you to admit that Daniel 8:21 referred to Alexander the Great. Was that too hard for you?

Sure; Daniel 8:22-25 does prophecy about the end times Anti-Christ. We agree on that. And about a new Temple.

No, I am not going to admit that Alexander represents the one in Dan.8:9-14, nor Dan.8:23-25. That is what you ultimately are alluding to, siding with Preterists/Historicists like ReChoired, which is to miss the forest for the trees again.

Narrowing in on the historical that served as a type is not the focus, because the actual prophecy is for the very end of this world when the coming Antichrist will end re-instituted sacrifices in Jerusalem with a new temple, and place an idol abomination in that new temple, and demand all to bow to it.

This is why the Daniel 8:11-14 verses cannot be applied to Alexander, nor anyone of history except loosely to Antiochus IV, yet there's parameters in that prophecy he never fulfilled, which means to look for another for fulfillment. And Daniel 9 and Daniel 12 happen to point to that fulfillment of that for the very end of this world.

But solely focusing on chapters like Daniel 7 & 8, and then wrongly throwing the 70th week of Daniel 9 into Christ's Ministry, is to actually strike out that very prophecy of Dan.8:11-14 for the end, and Dan.11 about the "vile person", and the Dan.12:1-4 timing which shows that is for the very end of this world by a final Antichrist.

I see this done all the time by both Preterists and Historicists to the Book of Daniel. The devil's false doctrine that the Dan.9:27 final "one week" was fulfilled back at the end of Christ's Ministry makes them simply 'omit' Christ's warning for the end about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem and placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol. Thus they scrap the Dan.8:11-14, and Dan.11 prophecies about the "vile person" as the final Antichrist at the end, including the timings given in Dan.12 for the end.
 
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ReChoired

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Daniel 8 doesn't represent Alexander either.
Consider these texts:

Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.​

This was literally fulfilled in Alexander III The Great's battle with Darius III Codomannus and his armies.

Gabriel specifically tells us who the "notable horn" on the "He-goat" is, and who it came after:

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.​

The first King of said empire that was "very great", even greater than Medo-Persia's "great" empire, was that which was ruled by Alexander III The Great, which parallels Daniel 2, 7 and 11.

Daniel 2:

1. Gold = Babylon
2. Silver = Medo-Persia
3. Brass = Greece/Javan
4. Iron = Rome​

Daniel 7:

1. Lion = Babylon
2. Bear = Medo-Persia (conquered 3, raised up)
3. Leopard = Greece/Javan (divided into four, wings to fly)
4. Terrible Beast = Rome​

Daniel 8:

1. (Babylon not in the vision)
2. Ram = Medo-Persia (conquered 3, raised up)
3. He-Goat = Greece/Javan (divided into four, touched not the ground)
4. Little Horn = Rome​

Daniel 10:

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia (Darius/Cyrus)
3. Greece
4. (Rome not mentioned)​

Daniel 11:

1. (Babylon not in Daniel 11, as it parallels 8)
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece (divided)
4. Rome (vs 20)
So what do you mean that Daniel 8 doesn't represent Alexander? Even the general commentaries all cite this as Alexander III The Great, for instance see - Daniel 8:21 -

Daniel 8:21, commentary:

Albert Barnes - "... And the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king - Alexander the Great ..."

John Gill - "... and the great host that is between his eyes is the first king; this is Alexander ..."

Commentary Critical and Explanatory - "... the first king ... Alexander ..."

Scofield's reference Notes - "... first king i.e. Alexander the Great. ..."

Mathew Poole - "... The first king, i.e. Alexander the Great; ..."

E. W. Bullinger - "...is the first king = representeth the first king: i.e. Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:5). ..."​

Daniel 8:5, commentary:

Adam Clarke - "... Behold, a he-goat - This was Alexander the Great; ..."

Coffman's Commentary - "... The great central horn of the he-goat stands for Alexander himself. ..."

Geneva Study Bible - "... Meaning Alexander ..."

Wesley's Explanatory Notes - "... A horn — This was Alexander the great. ..."

Jean Calvin's Commentary - "... As the Greeks were situated to the west, of Persia, the Prophet says, the he-goat came from the west, and went over the surface of the whole earth These words signify the very extensive dominion of Alexander, ..."

John Trapp Commentary - "... And the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.] This notable horn is Alexander, founder of the Grecian monarchy. ..."

Thomas Coke Commentary - "... It is also remarkable, that Alexander's son by Roxana was named Alexander AEgus, or the son of the goat. Alexander himself ordered the statuaries to represent him with a horn upon his head ... And the he-goat had a notable horn between his eyes. This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks, in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

Peter Pett's Commentary - "... The notable horn was no doubt Alexander the Great. ..."

Whedon's Commentary - "... This he-goat was the Grecian empire impersonated in Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21) ..."

Dr. Thomas Constable's Commentary - "... Alexander the Great is clearly the conspicuous horn. ..."

Joseph Benson's Commentary - "... “This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

Bishop Newton's Commentary - "... “This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

George Haydock's Commentary - "... A notable horn. Alexander the great. (Challoner) ..."

Richard Challoner's Commentary - "... A notable horn. Alexander the great. ..."

Ellicott's Commentary - "... An he goat.—This, according to Daniel 8:21, means the Greek empire, the large horn being the first king, or Alexander the Great. ..."

Treasury Of Scripture Knowledge - "... or, none touched him in the earth. a notable horn. Heb. an horn of sight. Alexander the Great. 8,21; 11:3 ..."​

So, what do you mean in regards Daniel 8???

... Alexander didn't end sacrifices in Jerusalem nor desolate the temple. ...
No one said he did.

... Instead he offered sacrifices to the God of Israel while in Jerusalem (per the Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.).
Alexander III the Great also proclaimed himself a "god" in Egypt (south, worldliness, secularism) and later in Babylon (north, false religion), therein dying. He in type represents the kingdom of satan, and satan himself.
 
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ReChoired

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And you have failed to read the Daniel 8:23-25 verses... which are about the final Antichrist at the end of this world, which is the one who will come to end the daily sacrifices in Jerusalem once they are started again, with a temple.

Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
...
The "king of fierce countenance" (see also Daniel 7, dreadful terrible), is Pagan Rome, and the second part, "king ... understanding dark sentences" is Papal Rome:

Dan. 8:


Symbol:

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​

Identification/interpretation:

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, ...​

Which parallels Dan. 11:

Dan 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.​

Who was the raiser of taxes in the NT after Greece, when the transgression of the Jews came to the full (Mat. 23:32)? What was the occupation of Matthew of the Publicans, whose inscription was upon the coin, and why did Joseph and Mary have to travel?

"destroyed" means "broken to pieces", and Rome was not conquered by external forces, but broke apart from within (thus "neither in anger, nor in battle"), and "few days" is contexual to the timeframe given unto it (examples upon request).

Just as Moses had said:

Deu 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

Deu 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

Deu 28:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:

Deu 28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

Deu 28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

Deu 28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.​

Just as Jesus had said:

Mat_24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Luk_17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The “understanding dark sentences” deals with the second major phase of the Roman element [as per Daniel 8:10 KJB], attacking Heaven, that of Papal Rome, for it means, according to scripture [KJB], to speak and understand parables, proverbs, ie religious/spiritual matters:

Psalms 49:4 KJB - I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Proverbs 1:6 KJB - To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Ezekiel 17:2 KJB - Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Matthew 13:34 KJB - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:13 KJB - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.​

See also “mystery” and “mysteries” in Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Romans 11:25, 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32, 6:19; Colossians 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9,16; Revelation 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.

See also “riddle” in Numbers 12:8; Judges 14:12-19.

See also “hard questions” in 1 Kings 10:1; 2 Chronicles 9:1.

See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Habakkuk 2:6;p.

To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols,

John 16:29 KJB - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.​

Thus, as it is written,

Proverbs 25:2 KJB - [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.​
 

ReChoired

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Obviously you have failed to read Daniel 8:21.
An admission of your error is required.
Yeah, Daniel 8:21 and Greece/Alexander III the Great is the only answer, and every single commentary that I know of also agrees with the interpretation given by God through the angel Gabriel.
 

ReChoired

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Of course nobody has time to read all that lot...
What exactly are you reading in this thread, and what do you understand of what is being discussed, as I am very much interested to know that, and I will read all you have to say, and test it by scripture, history.
 
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brakelite

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Thanks for your nice comments about me.
I also offered a 'deep historical and Biblical perspective on the prophesies of Daniel'. in #80.
No one except ReChoired, commented seriously on that.

But when posters try to promote their denominational doctrines here, such as anything of any historical or of any Biblical significance happened in 1844, then I view all their writings as colored by their pre-conceived beliefs. Basically their posts are just propaganda, in support of what they have been taught to believe.

We must clear our minds of any mans teachings. Or any woman's in ReCh's case.
I have read Ellen Whites books. She was a great person, with amazing insights, but there is no way she could have know the truths of the prophesies. Daniel 12:6-10 proves this.
Yes, 1844 is a sticking point for many, but let me ask, would not prophecy itself determine when the "times of the end" become realised? Here is an explanation by an Adventist Jew of the 1844 prophecy.
Thanks for your nice comments about me.
I also offered a 'deep historical and Biblical perspective on the prophesies of Daniel'. in #80.
No one except ReChoired, commented seriously on that.

But when posters try to promote their denominational doctrines here, such as anything of any historical or of any Biblical significance happened in 1844, then I view all their writings as colored by their pre-conceived beliefs. Basically their posts are just propaganda, in support of what they have been taught to believe.

We must clear our minds of any mans teachings. Or any woman's in ReCh's case.
I have read Ellen Whites books. She was a great person, with amazing insights, but there is no way she could have know the truths of the prophesies. Daniel 12:6-10 proves this.
Bro , the perspectives offered by RC were indeed those of our denomination...but so what? RC didn't present them as denominational teachings...he didn't quote denominational hand books or Adventist authors as verification of their validity. He did not say, this is Adventist teaching, see, here is our church manual to prove it. No, he said this is what the bible teaches, and here is where the bible says it. He also corroborated this with history, and add you know, history is written in blood upon the rocks and the mountains of this earth..it isn't an opinion, its a factual account and a total vindication of prophecy. Jesus said to His disciples, in reference to His own prophetic utterances,
KJV John 14
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
History my friend is what validates prophecy...not clairvoyance which stands as the foundation of Jesuit futurism.
 
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Davy

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Consider these texts:

Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.​

This was literally fulfilled in Alexander III The Great's battle with Darius III Codomannus and his armies.

Gabriel specifically tells us who the "notable horn" on the "He-goat" is, and who it came after:

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.​

The first King of said empire that was "very great", even greater than Medo-Persia's "great" empire, was that which was ruled by Alexander III The Great, which parallels Daniel 2, 7 and 11.

Daniel 2:

1. Gold = Babylon
2. Silver = Medo-Persia
3. Brass = Greece/Javan
4. Iron = Rome​

Daniel 7:

1. Lion = Babylon
2. Bear = Medo-Persia (conquered 3, raised up)
3. Leopard = Greece/Javan (divided into four, wings to fly)
4. Terrible Beast = Rome​

Daniel 8:

1. (Babylon not in the vision)
2. Ram = Medo-Persia (conquered 3, raised up)
3. He-Goat = Greece/Javan (divided into four, touched not the ground)
4. Little Horn = Rome​

Daniel 10:

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia (Darius/Cyrus)
3. Greece
4. (Rome not mentioned)​

Daniel 11:

1. (Babylon not in Daniel 11, as it parallels 8)
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece (divided)
4. Rome (vs 20)
So what do you mean that Daniel 8 doesn't represent Alexander? Even the general commentaries all cite this as Alexander III The Great, for instance see - Daniel 8:21 -

Daniel 8:21, commentary:

Albert Barnes - "... And the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king - Alexander the Great ..."

John Gill - "... and the great host that is between his eyes is the first king; this is Alexander ..."

Commentary Critical and Explanatory - "... the first king ... Alexander ..."

Scofield's reference Notes - "... first king i.e. Alexander the Great. ..."

Mathew Poole - "... The first king, i.e. Alexander the Great; ..."

E. W. Bullinger - "...is the first king = representeth the first king: i.e. Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:5). ..."​

Daniel 8:5, commentary:

Adam Clarke - "... Behold, a he-goat - This was Alexander the Great; ..."

Coffman's Commentary - "... The great central horn of the he-goat stands for Alexander himself. ..."

Geneva Study Bible - "... Meaning Alexander ..."

Wesley's Explanatory Notes - "... A horn — This was Alexander the great. ..."

Jean Calvin's Commentary - "... As the Greeks were situated to the west, of Persia, the Prophet says, the he-goat came from the west, and went over the surface of the whole earth These words signify the very extensive dominion of Alexander, ..."

John Trapp Commentary - "... And the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.] This notable horn is Alexander, founder of the Grecian monarchy. ..."

Thomas Coke Commentary - "... It is also remarkable, that Alexander's son by Roxana was named Alexander AEgus, or the son of the goat. Alexander himself ordered the statuaries to represent him with a horn upon his head ... And the he-goat had a notable horn between his eyes. This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks, in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

Peter Pett's Commentary - "... The notable horn was no doubt Alexander the Great. ..."

Whedon's Commentary - "... This he-goat was the Grecian empire impersonated in Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21) ..."

Dr. Thomas Constable's Commentary - "... Alexander the Great is clearly the conspicuous horn. ..."

Joseph Benson's Commentary - "... “This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

Bishop Newton's Commentary - "... “This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great ..."

George Haydock's Commentary - "... A notable horn. Alexander the great. (Challoner) ..."

Richard Challoner's Commentary - "... A notable horn. Alexander the great. ..."

Ellicott's Commentary - "... An he goat.—This, according to Daniel 8:21, means the Greek empire, the large horn being the first king, or Alexander the Great. ..."

Treasury Of Scripture Knowledge - "... or, none touched him in the earth. a notable horn. Heb. an horn of sight. Alexander the Great. 8,21; 11:3 ..."​

So, what do you mean in regards Daniel 8???

No one said he did.

Alexander III the Great also proclaimed himself a "god" in Egypt (south, worldliness, secularism) and later in Babylon (north, false religion), therein dying. He in type represents the kingdom of satan, and satan himself.

Your supposed list of scholarly proofs are funny!

The Scripture in Daniel 8 that I pointed to, which you keep bypassing, is this, which was NOT fulfilled by Alexander!!!

Dan 8:11-14
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
 

ReChoired

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...I also offered a 'deep historical and Biblical perspective on the prophesies of Daniel'. in #80.
This was appreciated, as I see that you are indeed serious about prophecy and study thereof. It was mostly correct, which is why I provided a bit more detailed matter, and figured you might like that information also, at least in those areas where you do not disagree with the position I shared.

No one except ReChoired, commented seriously on that.
Thank you for that acknowledgement. Appreciated, as it is some work to post the material, and to present it in a readable, orderly fashion, and timely.

But when posters try to promote their denominational doctrines here
This is incorrect. I promote scripture, and history. I never mentioned anything about denomination, though there might be a reference or two cited from Prophets and Kings (citing scripture and history) in tandem. This was more for others like brother brakelite.

... such as anything of any historical or of any Biblical significance happened in 1844
It is standard mathematics, using scriptural rules. Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6 (and 20 reasons to use the Day/Year); Daniel 8:13-14,26, 9:25; Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28; Revelation 9:13-15, etc. From the going forth of "the commandment" in 457 BC, "unto" "Messiah the Prince" (Jesus Christ, context, Jesus even speaks of this 490, 70x7 in Matthew 18, that the Jews as a nation would be forgiven, then the rest of the 2,300 - 490 = 1810 years remaining, see Revelation 9:13-15, etc):

Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Macrocheir, The Great [Artaxerxes was the son of Xerxes I and his wife Amestris] - 465 BC – 424 BC (AM 3762 - AM 3803); his 7th year of reign is astronomically, historically, established at 457 BC (circa AM 3769); [Ezra [the scribe] in the first years at least, while Nehemiah [the cupbearer] was in the latter years at least, 20th year] [“...But it was not until several years later, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I, the successor of Xerxes the Great, that any considerable number returned to Jerusalem, under Ezra. ...” [Prophets and Kings, page 605.3]] [“...The decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus for the restoring and building of Jerusalem, the third issued since the close of the seventy years’ captivity, is remarkable for its expressions regarding the God of heaven, for its recognition of the attainments of Ezra, and for the liberality of the grants made to the remnant people of God. Artaxerxes refers to Ezra as “the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the Lord, and of His statutes to Israel;” “a scribe of the law of the God of heaven.” The king united with his counselors in offering freely “unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem;” and in addition he made provision for meeting many heavy expenses by ordering that they be paid “out of the king’s treasure house.” Verses 11, 12, 15, 20. ...” [Prophets and Kings; page 610.1]]

There are several ways to correlate data, first we can use the scriptural ages, given from Genesis, in the genealogies, ages of kings, etc, and combine with known dates in history, such as the 7th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir, being in the Fall of 457 BC (by astronomical sources, Ptolemy's Canon, Elephantine Papyri, - Artaxerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia

And according to multiple sources:

VAT 5047 (No. -453 in ADT I), dated to year 11 of Artaxerxes I (454/453 BCE). - Chronology Persia

LBAT 1419 (No. 4 in ADT V), with one entry dated to year 21 of Xerxes (465/464 BCE). - Chronology Persia

LBAT 1387+1388+1486 (No. 56 in ADT V), mainly dated to the reign of Artaxerxes I. - Chronology Persia

Saros Tablets - LBART *1419; Accession of Artaxerxes I, pages 80-81, citing, J. N. Strassmaier in reports in ZA, VII [1892], 200, 201; VIII [1893], 106) - https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1968-1/1968-1-05.pdf

The Chronology of Ezra 7 (1953), Siegfried H. Horn, Ph.D; Lynn H. Wood, Ph.D, page 28-30 (Conclusion) - http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Fur...HE CHRONOLOGY OF EZRA 7 (Siegried H Horn).pdf

Elephantine Papyri - Siegfried H. Horn and Lynn H. Wood, "The Fifth-Century Jewish Calendar at Elephantine," JNES 13 (1954):14-16 - http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io...th_Century_Jewish_Calendar_at_Elephantine.pdf

Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary, by J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney, section, "Nehemiah, book of", page 1008, par. 3 (Left-hand Column) - Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary

Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis, Volume 91, University of Chicago Press, 1970 pages 143-144 - Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis

Ancient Israel: Its History and Meaning, by Heber Cyrus Snell, page 203 - Ancient Israel

Babylonian Chronology: 626 B.C. - A.D. 75, Part 75, by Richard A. Parker, & Waldo H. Dubberstein, page 32, Table for Artaxerxes I, 7th year, far right columns, for 1-3 months of reign (fall) - Babylonian Chronology

The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version, by Bruce Manning Metzger (1965), Oxford University Press, page 16 - The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version

An Epitome of General Ecclesiastical History: From the Earliest Period of Antiquity to the Present Time, by Rev. John Marsh A.M. (1828) & Adam Clarke; Chapter 6, page 75 - An Epitome of General Ecclesiastical History

We also know that John the Baptist began his ministry in AD 26 (which places Jesus ministry begun in AD 27):

“...to determining when the reign of Tiberius Caesar started.[38] The traditional approach is … that the reign of Tiberius started when he became co-regent in 11AD, placing the start of the ministry of John the Baptist around 26 AD. ...” - Wikipedia; "Baptism of Jesus" - Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia

"...John the Baptist was born about 5 BC, and now about 26 A.D. about the age of 30 he appears in the wilderness of Judea. ..." Bible-History; John the Baptist - John the Baptist Appears - Story of The New Testament (Bible History Online)

Which perfectly correlates to the 2,300 and 70 Weeks of Daniel's 8 & 9.

Link

Ezrachonology.jpg


Link
TwentySevenAD.jpg


Take the astronomically certain 457 BC (fall) of Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28; Daniel 8 & 9, and move forward 69 weeks (Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23), and one comes directly to AD 27 (6 months pior in AD 26 for John the Baptist and 30 years prior, Luke 3:23, come to about 4 BC for birth of Jesus, and 6 months before that, is John the Baptist), the 'anointing' of Jesus at His Baptism in the Jordan (Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19), then 3 1/2 day/years later (Ezekiel 4:6 (contemporary with Daniel); Numbers 14:34, etc) and one comes to the crucifixion of Jesus in AD 31 (Hebrews 10:26), and 3 1/2 years later the stoning of Stephen in AD 34 (Acts 7:51-60), as per Hebrews 2:3, etc
 
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ReChoired

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... then I view all their writings as colored by their pre-conceived beliefs.
I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I was not born or raised Seventh-day Adventist. My studies are based upon actual Bible study and study of history. I tossed my pre-conceived beliefs when that happened, and thus I am no longer a Roman Catholic.

Basically their posts are just propaganda
This is just a dismissal without finding any error in what was shared. It is effectively hand-waving and piffling.

... in support of what they have been taught to believe.
I believe because of the evidence, and not look for evidence to prove a belief. This is an unfounded accusation, and an ignorance of my background.

We must clear our minds of any mans teachings.
Agreed. When are you going to start, as I had already so long ago?

Or any woman's in ReCh's case.
Ha! unproven, merely assertion. I can tell you, and as others can also testify of my background, no such thing has happened. In fact, my witness is recorded in Heaven itself! :)

I have read Ellen Whites books.
As a side note, curious. Which ones, in full, which ones in part?

She was a great person, with amazing insights, but there is no way she could have know the truths of the prophesies.
How do you know this? What evidence that she could not possibly know? (as a PS I do not originate doctrine from her, but from scripture, as Isaiah 8:20 is clear in order, first "Law" then "testimony"., and she merely magnifies that which exists in scripture). For I have asked on several occasions to God in prayer, "Where did she get this or that in scripture?" God showed me where she got it, and gave me more.

Daniel 12:6-10 proves this.
Daniel 12:6-10 speaks about the 1,260, which is given 7 times in scripture, all referring to the same time period, and an additional eighth:

Symbol of prophetic time “a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days” = 1,260 prophetic days/literal years (a portion of the 2,300; Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc)), also known as 42 prophetic months, and also as “a time, times and the dividing of time” or 3 ½ prophetic years. Each of the timeframes are the exact same timeframe, which is given in scripture 7 times: Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3 (see also Luke 21:24, "times of the Gentiles" (spiritually uncircumcised)), 12:6,14, 13:5; and this particular timeframe begins in the year AD 538 [greater power given unto the papal system] unto AD 1798 [General Berthier under Napoleon, takes the pope captive and establishes as secular government, head is mortally wounded], exactly 1,260 years. This is not merely a Seventh-day Adventist 'idea', and can cite others before us, who also got it from scripture and history.

The many made white, deals with the long Dark Ages, and the ending in the Reformation.

The "daily" was taken away in AD 508. More on that as needed.
 
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ReChoired

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Your supposed list of scholarly proofs are funny!

The Scripture in Daniel 8 that I pointed to, which you keep bypassing, is this, which was NOT fulfilled by Alexander!!!

Dan 8:11-14
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
I never said those verses referred to Alexander, did I? I said they applied to Rome in its phases.
 

Davy

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The "king of fierce countenance" (see also Daniel 7, dreadful terrible), is Pagan Rome, and the second part, "king ... understanding dark sentences" is Papal Rome:
...


That is not... about Papal Rome. No pope has ever fulfilled that "he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes"! All you do is show your Jewish hatred against the Roman Church by wrongly applying that to the popes.


Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

KJV

It is about this one for the end of this world...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV


There's that link to that Dan.8:23-25 king. It's the coming Antichrist coming in our near future to Jerusalem for the end of this world.
 

Davy

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I never said those verses referred to Alexander, did I? I said they applied to Rome in its phases.

From the start I said those Dan.8:11-14 verses weren't about Alexander. And since those events in those verses are repeated in Dan.9:27, Dan.11:31, and Dan.12, and in Matthew 24:15, that ought to be enough Bible evidence to show that event is for the 'end', and was not history like you're trying to make it.
 

ReChoired

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No pope has ever fulfilled that "he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes"
Anti Christos = Vicarius Christi. The first is Greek, the latter is Latin, and mean the exact same thing. See also the two definitions of "anti" in 2 Thess. 2:4

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Stand up "against" and "in the place of".
 
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brakelite

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@ReChoired I think that Patriarchs and Prophets is a must read for anyone interested in learning the extent of Ellen White's inspiration. Right up there along side Desire of Ages.
 
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ReChoired

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From the start I said those Dan.8:11-14 verses weren't about Alexander. ...
Davy, you clearly said:

Daniel 8 doesn't represent Alexander either. ...

And when both I and keraz showed otherwise, you denied it. Do you still deny that Daniel 8 in those texts previously cited are not about Alexander III the Great? #123
 

ReChoired

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@ReChoired I think that Patriarchs and Prophets is a must read for anyone interested in learning the extent of Ellen White's inspiration. Right up there along side Desire of Ages.

Steps To Christ Audio Book from Myers Media:

Desire of Ages Audio Book from Myers Media:

The Great Controversy Audio Book from Myers Media:

or also here - Myers Media

Patriarchs and Prophets here (incomplete, still recording, so I do not have them up on youtube yet either) - FREE PP Audio Book
 

Davy

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Davy, you clearly said:



And when both I and keraz showed otherwise, you denied it. Do you still deny that Daniel 8 in those texts previously cited are not about Alexander III the Great? #123

You need to complete what I said, as I was pointing specifically to the events in Dan.8 about the transgression...

I said:
Daniel 8 doesn't represent Alexander either. Alexander didn't end sacrifices in Jerusalem nor desolate the temple. Instead he offered sacrifices to the God of Israel while in Jerusalem (per the Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.).