Beware of Men's Endless Charts & Lists

Davy · Dec 8, 2019

Some like to come here to push charts and lists which can contain half-truths, just to try and trap you into following their cult, trying to make you think they know what they're talking about. Our Lord Jesus warned us to not allow any man to deceive us. We can always trust His Word, and that's how we verify those who push a lot of charts and lists.

The devil quoted almost perfectly from Psalms 91:12 to Jesus in Luke 4, but he added a short phrase to the Scripture which changed its meaning.

Ps 91:12
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
KJV

Luke 4:11
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
KJV

That is done all the time by men's leaven doctrines added to God's Word, and what that working does is to actually change the 'context' of the Scriptures. Some do that blatantly, expecting that you really won't check them out in God's Holy Writ for yourself.

The devil was kind of funny in the above Scripture example, don't you think? Did he think for a moment that Jesus wouldn't know that he had added that "at any time" phrase to the Psalms 91:12 verse? That's how those pushing men's leaven also operate, betting you won't be familiar enough with God's Word to know they've changed the Scripture meaning.

Does this mean once we understand a Scripture, in context within God's Word, that we can't put it into our own words?

No, of course not. The job of Israel's priests was to 'read' the Scriptures to the people, and then explain the meaning, making sure they understood. If you truly understand Scripture, verifying by two or more Scripture witnesses, and by The Holy Spirit, then you will be able to explain it to people on various levels of understanding. Changing the actual Bible context like what the devil did in Luke 4 is a lot different than being able to explain the meaning of Scripture in one's own words while keeping to what the Scripture is actually teaching. If that were not possible, then all Bible translations would never be able to pass on actual meaning from the original Bible languages.

Endtime Bible prophecy is really not that hard, because our Heavenly Father has given us several Bible witnesses for an event, and it's a simple matter of disciplined Bible study with His help. There is so much written for the end that we can easily know because of multiple Bible witnesses, even though there will still be some things we won't know until they begin to appear.

Isa 42:9
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
KJV

Davy · Dec 8, 2019

A warning against the abuse of 'days for years' by some cults:

Dan 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
KJV

Some try to 'add' the idea to that about days representing years applied to many other Bible prophecies, even though no such guide is given in those prophecies by God. Daniel in the above was reading about God's promise to the house of Judah of ending their Babylon captivity after 70 years (Jeremiah 25). Daniel was not... applying some mystic formula regarding that 70 years God promised that Judah would be captive to Babylon. Daniel was simply reading about God's promise from the Book of Jeremiah, and wondering about the times and seasons, for Daniel was in that 70 years captivity to Babylon at the time. Later, in the Daniel 9:24 verse, the angel Gabriel would declare to Daniel a period of seventy sevens regarding fulfillment of certain prophecies.

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV

OK, so the first example in Daniel 9 that the cults like to do, is to abuse that 70 weeks of days equal years as some type of mystic formula applied to whatever they deem, like wrongly treating the previous Daniel 8:14 2300 days instead as 2300 years! There is no direction by God to do that there. How then is that like... what the devil did in adding to Psalms 91:12 when quoting it to Jesus in Luke 4? It's essentially doing the same... thing, adding something to God's Holy Writ that is not there and does not belong! Daniel in the Dan.9:2 verse certainly was not doing that with the Book of Jeremiah.

Davy · Dec 8, 2019

Understanding the 70 Weeks Of Daniel 9:

Remember, we can't add... things out of the context of the Scripture. That doesn't mean we can't consider parallels in other Scripture about the same kind of event(s). That is actually how we get more Bible understanding about an event, recognizing God's multiple Bible witnesses He has left us in His Word.

Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That seventy weeks (or sevens per the Hebrew) is specifically for Daniel's people and Jerusalem ("thy holy city"). Has an end of sins been made there today? No. Has reconciliation for iniquity been made for the unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem? No. Has everlasting righteousness been brought into to today's Jerusalem? No, as the majority there still reject Christ Jesus, and their sins are still not forgiven. Has the vision and prophecy here given Daniel been sealed up then? i.e., finished today? No, obviously not. Nor has the most Holy in Jerusalem been anointed, pointing to the cleansing of the sanctuary, but there isn't even one there today! Those are tell-tell signs that are easy to understand that are lacking in today's Jerusalem.

That is our first, and main... indicator from this Dan.9 Scripture that the 70 weeks isn't fulfilled yet today.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This is where God is showing us to use the idea of periods of sevens for years. The way to know is because we are given a time period of when the command went out from Babylon to restore and build Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity to the time of Christ's first coming. That's definitely about a period of 'time'.

The formula Gabriel gives here is in symbolic periods of sevens. The KJV translators used the idea of 'weeks' to make it easier to understand, for a week equals a period of seven days. Thus the total 70 weeks would equal 490 days (7 x 70 = 490). We know that time period was longer than days, so this has to mean days for years. That is what the Dan.9 context is representing, so this not an adding to Scripture. It is the symbolic representation God is using here in Daniel 9. Now if one takes this formula and slaps it anywhere else in Scripture where God didn't give direction to do it, then that is... adding to Scripture.

The 1st period -- the "seven weeks". That was from 454 B.C. to 405 B.C., 49 years. The command went out in 454 B.C., and the completion of the walls of Jerusalem and dedication of the 2nd temple in 405 B.C., exactly 49 years (or "seven weeks").

The 2nd period -- the "threescore and two weeks". This represents a period of 434 years (62 x 7). It continues right after the first period, which ended in 405 B.C. After 434 years beyond that brings us to the year of 29 A.D., the year of the cutting off of Messiah on the cross. In the next Dan.9 verse we are specifically told Messiah is cut off "after"... this period, meaning at the completion of the 69th week, which was the 29 A.D. date.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

At this point 69 weeks of the prophecy have been fulfilled, taking us up to the time of Christ's crucifixion on the cross at 29 A.D.

After that, the Roman general Titus with his army would destroy Jerusalem and the 2nd temple ("sanctuary") in 70 A.D. So this "prince" is not the same idea as Messiah. That is about Titus.

This "end thereof shall be with a flood" is not about God ending this world with flood, because He promised He would never do that again. It has to be a metaphor or symbol. And the only one I recall about the 'end' is prophecy like the "water as a flood" of Revelation 12:15-17 that comes out of the serpent's mouth against God's people for the end.

That idea "unto the end of the war desolations are determined" points to the "end" of this world. In Bible translations like the Revised Standard or NIV, it's about war existing until the end. That has been very true, and is still going on today. I believe that is strongly linked to what our Lord Jesus said here...

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

The meaning is that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the 'end' is not yet.

At this point today in the Dan.9 prophecy, still only 69 weeks have been completed historically. The 70th week is still yet to come.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

This "he" we have to go back to the previous verse and pick up the person last spoken of. It was the "prince" who would destroy the city and sanctuary. Because that would logically point to historical Titus, the Roman general, it would be natural to think this verse was completed back in history sometime with Titus' around 70 A.D. But there's a huge problem with that thought...

Notice the verse says, "... he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". It also notes about the overspreading of abominations, meaning the Dan.11:31 event of placing an abomination that makes desolate. The Roman Titus did no such thing (see Josephus' histories). Instead Titus raided Jerusalem with an army, and the Jews inside the temple refused to give it up, and so a battle over the temple happened, and the temple caught fire and burned to the ground. That is what ended the sacrifices involving the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, not some covenant made with Titus for 7 years that he broke later ("one week" = 7 years per the Dan.9:25 formula given Daniel via the periods).

In 165-170 B.C., Antiochus Epiphanes took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the 2nd temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and setup an idol abomination in Zeus worship. That is what the ending of sacrifices and placing the abomination that makes desolate in Daniel 11 is pointing to, except not to Antiochus because our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel during His Ministry. And of course our Lord Jesus' Ministry was about 200 years after Antiochus had already been dead! By that our Lord Jesus showed us to look for another to fulfill that Daniel 11 event of the abomination.

Titus didn't fulfill it, so what then? Naturally this means to look towards the end of this world when the prophesied Antichrist is to be revealed in Jerusalem. That is when this final symbolic "one week" will be fulfilled. Until then, only 69 weeks have been completed today.

Jay Ross · Dec 8, 2019

Davy said:
Some like to come here to push charts and lists which can contain half-truths, just to try and trap you into following their cult, trying to make you think they know what they're talking about. Our Lord Jesus warned us to not allow any man to deceive us. We can always trust His Word, and that's how we verify those who push a lot of charts and lists.

Davy said:
Some try to 'add' the idea to that about days representing years applied to many other Bible prophecies, even though no such guide is given in those prophecies by God. Daniel in the above was reading about God's promise to the house of Judah of ending their Babylon captivity after 70 years (Jeremiah 25).

Davy said:
OK, so the first example in Daniel 9 that the cults like to do, is to abuse that 70 weeks of days equal years as some type of mystic formula applied to whatever they deem, like wrongly treating the previous Daniel 8:14 2300 days instead as 2300 years! There is no direction by God to do that there.

Davy said:
That seventy weeks (or sevens per the Hebrew) is specifically for Daniel's people and Jerusalem ("thy holy city"). Has an end of sins been made there today? No. Has reconciliation for iniquity been made for the unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem? No. Has everlasting righteousness been brought into to today's Jerusalem? No, as the majority there still reject Christ Jesus, and their sins are still not forgiven. Has the vision and prophecy here given Daniel been sealed up then? i.e., finished today? No, obviously not. Nor has the most Holy in Jerusalem been anointed, pointing to the cleansing of the sanctuary, but there isn't even one there today! Those are tell-tell signs that are easy to understand that are lacking in today's Jerusalem.

Oh Davy, your pointing of your finger at others is also pointing at yourself, in that you are doing the very thing that you are complaining about by starting a thread where you have "come here to push charts and lists which can contain half-truths, just to try and trap you/others into following their/your cult, trying to make you think they/you know what they're talking about. Our Lord Jesus warned us to not allow any man to deceive us. We can always trust His Word, and that's how we verify those/like you who push a lot of charts and lists."

You have made a claim that Daniel 9:24 has not occurred yet, but I can also claim that the 490 years of this independent prophecy has been fulfilled with respect to Daniel's people and the temple in Jerusalem, and that after the 490 years allowed for Israel to repent, that a new means of reconciliation was established by Christ on the cross, that everlasting righteousness was brought in, that the vision and prophecy were seal up, and the most holy was anointed.

Now we do agree that Daniel 9:25 has been fulfilled and that Daniel 9:26a was also completed by Christ on the cross.

We sadly disagree that Daniel 9:26b has as yet been completed because the war in heaven is still in progress and that battle will not end until Satan and his angels are judged in heaven and kicked out of heaven to end up on the face of the earth where they will be gathered with the kings of the earth, who have been judged on the face of the earth, to be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for many days to await their final punishment, (Isa 24:21-22) but after 1,000 years have passed, the entrance to the Bottomless pit will be unlocked and they will be released for a little while. (Rev 9:2, 20 & 20:7-8)

Now, Daniel 9:26b immediately follows Daniel 9:24 because Daniels people did not finish their transgressions or make and end of their sin through repentance by the end of the 490 years allocated for this purpose and so what has followed is the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children which will continue for two ages from the end of the 490 year period in which they did not make an end to their transgress nor did they repent of their sins. (Ex 20:4-6) This is also another reason why Daniel 9:26b has not yet run its full course.

Now I agree with you that Daniel 9:27 will be fulfilled in our distant future as the two references from Revelation above confirms.

However, we have both made a number of assumptions, in coming to our conclusions, and if we are wrong in our conclusions then we are both pushing flawed theories that will lead many astray and if this is so, then we will both need to repent of the flaws in our teachings.

Shalom

Davy · Dec 8, 2019

Jay Ross said:
Oh Davy, your pointing of your finger at others is also pointing at yourself, in that you are doing the very thing that you are complaining about by starting a thread where you have "come here to push charts and lists which can contain half-truths, just to try and trap you/others into following their/your cult, trying to make you think they/you know what they're talking about. Our Lord Jesus warned us to not allow any man to deceive us. We can always trust His Word, and that's how we verify those/like you who push a lot of charts and lists."

Not good that you confuse man-made charts and lists with actual Scripture in my posts that I present.

You have made a claim that Daniel 9:24 has not occurred yet, but I can also claim that the 490 years of this independent prophecy has been fulfilled with respect to Daniel's people and the temple in Jerusalem, and that after the 490 years allowed for Israel to repent, that a new means of reconciliation was established by Christ on the cross, that everlasting righteousness was brought in, that the vision and prophecy were seal up, and the most holy was anointed.

No, the Daniel 9:24 verse has not been fulfilled. And it won't be until Jesus returns and this Zechariah 12 Scripture is fulfilled by the unbelieving Jew...

Zech 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

When Jesus comes every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him (put for the unbelieving Jews), that per the Rev.1:7 Scripture. That is when God will remove the 'blindness' He put upon them according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11. That is when those Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them when they see Christ coming, like He pointed to in Luke 23:27-31. Their wishing for the mountains and the hills to fall on them represents their shame when they see Jesus. They will know at that point how they messed up by rejecting Him, and especially because of their falling away to worship the coming Antichrist in place of Jesus.

Now we do agree that Daniel 9:25 has been fulfilled and that Daniel 9:26a was also completed by Christ on the cross.

We sadly disagree that Daniel 9:26b has as yet been completed because the war in heaven is still in progress and that battle will not end until Satan and his angels are judged in heaven and kicked out of heaven to end up on the face of the earth where they will be gathered with the kings of the earth, who have been judged on the face of the earth, to be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for many days to await their final punishment, (Isa 24:21-22) but after 1,000 years have passed, the entrance to the Bottomless pit will be unlocked and they will be released for a little while. (Rev 9:2, 20 & 20:7-8)

Not sure where you're dividing the Daniel 9:26 verse.

The war in heaven per Rev.12:7 is still yet to occur, that because when it does, that is when there will be no more place found in heaven for Satan, as he will be cast down to the earth, in OUR dimension. The whole world will then wonder at him per Revelation 17:8.

The gathering of the kings to the pit per Isaiah 24 is when Jesus returns to end Antichrist's reign, and fights the battle of Armageddon. That is when the dragon (Satan) is also locked in that pit for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That battle is what will end the time of "great tribulation", and is on the last day of this present world, which is when the "day of the Lord" events happen.

Now, Daniel 9:26b immediately follows Daniel 9:24 because Daniels people did not finish their transgressions or make and end of their sin through repentance by the end of the 490 years allocated for this purpose and so what has followed is the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children which will continue for two ages from the end of the 490 year period in which they did not make an end to their transgress nor did they repent of their sins. (Ex 20:4-6) This is also another reason why Daniel 9:26b has not yet run its full course.

Which is simple to understand, because the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus Christ as God's promised Saviour, so their sins are not remitted. But before the end of the 70th week, their sins are going to really pile up in Jerusalem with the re-instituting of animal sacrifices and old covenant worship again.

Now I agree with you that Daniel 9:27 will be fulfilled in our distant future as the two references to Revelation above confirms.

However, we have both made a number of assumptions, in coming to our conclusions, and if we are wrong in our conclusions then we are both pushing flawed theories that will lead many astray and if this is so, then we will both need to repent of the flaws in our teachings.

True that God's House will be judged first, like Apostle Peter said (1 Peter 4:17).

I don't call rightly dividing The Word of God like Apostle Paul told Timothy to do as making "assumptions". It's not difficult to know the Daniel 9:24 verse is still yet to be fulfilled. It's also not difficult to understand that the Daniel 9:27 verse is NOT about our Lord Jesus' Ministry. Nor is it that difficult to understand our Lord Jesus pointing to the Matthew 24:15 "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 8:11-13, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, with it being for the very end of this world.

As a matter of fact, IF one stays in God's Word for their self, and not allow themselves to be swayed in every direction by men's theories and doctrines, they will know those very understandings too. These things I speak of are not of private interpretation. If the believer can never be sure they have properly understood our Heavenly Father and His Son's teachings in His Holy Writ, then like Apostle James said, that is to doubt...

James 1:5-8
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
KJV

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

Davy said:
... the cults like to do, is to abuse that 70 weeks ...

I don't know what you're complaining about. People don't need "endless-charts" to distort what Scripture ACTUALLY says. You do it just fine with simple words!

And yet again, you run from ANY EXAMINATION, ANY FACTS, ANY HISTORY, and ANY DEFENSE of the indefensible ...
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

Jay Ross said:
... I can also claim that the 490 years ...

... and ANOTHER spewing of nonsense which neither Scripture or History support. Perhaps we should start by following the ANGEL'S INSTRUCTIONS:

Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Nah, we'd rather believe the lies of men than the TRUTH of GOD!

Bobby Jo

Jay Ross · Dec 8, 2019

Davy said:
Not good that you confuse man-made charts and lists with actual Scripture in my posts that I present.

If that is how you read what I posted, then I trust that is not also the way you read scripture.

Davy said:
No, the Daniel 9:24 verse has not been fulfilled. And it won't be until Jesus returns and this Zechariah 12 Scripture is fulfilled by the unbelieving Jew...

Zech 12:10-14

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

When Jesus comes every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him (put for the unbelieving Jews), that per the Rev.1:7 Scripture. That is when God will remove the 'blindness' He put upon them according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11. That is when those Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them when they see Christ coming, like He pointed to in Luke 23:27-31. Their wishing for the mountains and the hills to fall on them represents their shame when they see Jesus. They will know at that point how they messed up by rejecting Him, and especially because of their falling away to worship the coming Antichrist in place of Jesus.

What has the above got to do with Daniel 9:24? I can see no connection, except for your charts and timelines of when you believe the End Time Events will occur.

Davy said:
Not sure where you're dividing the Daniel 9:26 verse.

Dan 9:26a: -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Dan 9:26b: -

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Davy said:
The war in heaven per Rev.12:7 is still yet to occur, that because when it does, that is when there will be no more place found in heaven for Satan, as he will be cast down to the earth, in OUR dimension. The whole world will then wonder at him per Revelation 17:8.

The gathering of the kings to the pit per Isaiah 24 is when Jesus returns to end Antichrist's reign, and fights the battle of Armageddon. That is when the dragon (Satan) is also locked in that pit for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That battle is what will end the time of "great tribulation", and is on the last day of this present world, which is when the "day of the Lord" events happen.

Which is simple to understand, because the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus Christ as God's promised Saviour, so their sins are not remitted. But before the end of the 70th week, their sins are going to really pile up in Jerusalem with the re-instituting of animal sacrifices and old covenant worship again.

Your perceived timeline seems to be rather confused to me as your understanding of the scriptures has a number of events out of sequence as to when they will happen.

Davy said:
True that God's House will be judged first, like Apostle Peter said (1 Peter 4:17).

I don't call rightly dividing The Word of God like Apostle Paul told Timothy to do as making "assumptions". It's not difficult to know the Daniel 9:24 verse is still yet to be fulfilled. It's also not difficult to understand that the Daniel 9:27 verse is NOT about our Lord Jesus' Ministry. Nor is it that difficult to understand our Lord Jesus pointing to the Matthew 24:15 "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 8:11-13, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, with it being for the very end of this world.

As a matter of fact, IF one stays in God's Word for their self, and not allow themselves to be swayed in every direction by men's theories and doctrines, they will know those very understandings too. These things I speak of are not of private interpretation. If the believer can never be sure they have properly understood our Heavenly Father and His Son's teachings in His Holy Writ, then like Apostle James said, that is to doubt...

James 1:5-8

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
KJV

Davy, you are claiming that your understanding of the scriptures is infallible, but when others point our that your have erred in your understanding then you claim that no one else understands the scriptures just like you do and that they should listen to your wisdom.

My friend, both of our understandings have errors in them where we have erred in our understanding of the scriptures.

You, in asking where 24:26 should be divided into two respective events demonstrated that your understanding is incomplete.

If your understanding of this one verse is incomplete, then what other passages of scripture is also incomplete in your understanding?

Just like those who you are critical of, you to are presenting flawed understanding which will lead many astray if they accept it as “God’s Truth” which you are claiming.

Shalom

Jay Ross · Dec 8, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
... and ANOTHER spewing of nonsense which neither Scripture or History support. Perhaps we should start by following the ANGEL'S INSTRUCTIONS:

Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Nah, we'd rather believe the lies of men than the TRUTH of GOD!
Bobby Jo

Bobby, what is the TRUTH of GOD!? Your truth? Or what is recorded in the scriptures? You pull down others yet you are afraid of actually publishing your account of how you understand how the end times will play out. Why is that? Are you afraid of being shown up for the lack of knowledge that you truly possess?

Shalom

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

Jay Ross said:
Bobby, what is the TRUTH of GOD!? ...

Well, it certainly ain't what goes for "Posts" in this Forum. Perhaps one could consider SCRIPTURE and HISTORY for starters, but that wouldn't agree with the FALSE doctrines espoused and promoted by either ignorant or dishonest people.

So for starters, pick a subject. -- This is where the rats scurry for dark corners. -- How about identifying ANY Scriptural basis for your "490 years"? Or go further to the foundation, where the ANGEL DEMANDS that these prophecies are MODERN, and YOU GIVE ANCIENT "fulfillments".

Yeah, I don't expect to hear back, because YOU (and most others in this Forum) can't stand LIGHT.
Bobby Jo

Enoch111 · Dec 8, 2019

Jay Ross said:
You have made a claim that Daniel 9:24 has not occurred yet, but I can also claim that the 490 years of this independent prophecy has been fulfilled with respect to Daniel's people and the temple in Jerusalem, and that after the 490 years allowed for Israel to repent, that a new means of reconciliation was established by Christ on the cross, that everlasting righteousness was brought in, that the vision and prophecy were seal up, and the most holy was anointed.

No, only 483 years have been fulfilled. And everlasting righteousness has NOT been brought it. Just look around you. Everlasting righteousness means exactly that -- total and eternal righteousness and peace on earth, with all evildoers in the Lake of Fire. This can only happen AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, which also has not happened. Israel is still in unbelief, so why would you say that Israel has already repented? Do you see your warped theology?

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

Enoch111 said:
... Do you see your warped theology?

You both need a mirror. Perhaps you could find something on Ebay, or Amazon ...
Bobby Jo

Enoch111 · Dec 8, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
You both need a mirror. Perhaps you could find something on Ebay, or Amazon ...
Bobby Jo

I would take you seriously if you had any clue whatsoever about Bible prophecy. Unfortunately, from your previous posts, you have no clue.

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

Enoch111 said:
I would take you seriously if you had any clue whatsoever about Bible prophecy. Unfortunately, from your previous posts, you have no clue.

Scripture DOES offer "clues" but you've clearly demonstrated that you don't care what Scripture says. You have your doctrine, and that's enough.

So be content. After all, IGNORANCE IS BLISS! -- Or so they say ...
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo · Dec 8, 2019

To All,

There are so many Scriptural and Historical disconnects for the "Classical Interpretation" of Dan. 9, but you wouldn't know it from all the FALSE assertions in this Forum. Consider:

1. Dan. 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Dan. 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Dan. 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of an edict from a man/king, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

4. The Dan. 9:25 "seven" is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Dan. 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gap.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.

... and of course there are other aspects which must be included, but these are basic aspects which any student of Prophecy should be aware of, but seldom are ...

Bobby Jo

Jay Ross · Dec 9, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
Well, it certainly ain't what goes for "Posts" in this Forum. Perhaps one could consider SCRIPTURE and HISTORY for starters, but that wouldn't agree with the FALSE doctrines espoused and promoted by either ignorant or dishonest people.

So for starters, pick a subject. -- This is where the rats scurry for dark corners. -- How about identifying ANY Scriptural basis for your "490 years"? Or go further to the foundation, where the ANGEL DEMANDS that these prophecies are MODERN, and YOU GIVE ANCIENT "fulfillments".

Yeah, I don't expect to hear back, because YOU (and most others in this Forum) can't stand LIGHT.
Bobby Jo

Bobby are you being completely honest with your barbs and challenges? If what I have posted is wrong then post your apology with the appropriate scriptures to rebut what I have posted, otherwise you are nothing but an empty jar that makes far to much noise with your put downs of others.

When you start posting the "truth" rather than your barbs, then, perhaps some of us may begin to take you seriously, but until that happens you are nothing but a hinderance to good discussion.

Bobby Jo · Dec 9, 2019

Jay Ross said:
Bobby are you being completely honest with your barbs and challenges? ...

Yep, every one of them! But so far, YOU don't have the where-with-all to defend your misrepresentations of Scripture. Do you deny what the Scholars acknowledge, and what the Commentators try to hide from their unthinking audience? -- Yep, they said 490-years, so I'll repeat what I heard!

How can you dismiss objective analysis where YOU use a CONCISE definition for the seventy "sevens", but the TEXT says it's an INCONCISE word? -- Do you drive a "car", or do you drive a "vehicle", -- which could be a truck; or a bus; or a semi? Daniel said ~vehicle~ and you and your "teachers" say "car". -- And that makes all of you liars. IT'S NOT 490.

I'm reminded of that famous scene where Jack Nicholson said : You Can't Handle The Truth*.

* "A Few Good Men", 1992

Bobby Jo

Jay Ross · Dec 9, 2019

Enoch111 said:
No, only 483 years have been fulfilled. And everlasting righteousness has NOT been brought it. Just look around you. Everlasting righteousness means exactly that -- total and eternal righteousness and peace on earth, with all evildoers in the Lake of Fire. This can only happen AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, which also has not happened. Israel is still in unbelief, so why would you say that Israel has already repented? Do you see your warped theology?

You are entitled to your opinion as to how you interpret scripture, but it is my view that there are five independent prophecies contained within the four verses of Daniel 9:24-27 that overlap each other as they are played out in time with the first three prophecies in verses 24-26a fulfilled, and the prophecy 26b still unfolding which will finish in our near future and verse 27 which will begin in our distant future.

As for your misrepresentation of what I have written concerning the need for Israel to repent of their iniquities, around 2,000 plus years ago, that timeframe has past and they did not repent but they continued in their iniquities and those iniquities were visited on their children and their children's children for the next two ages and this time period of the visitation of their iniquities with conclude in our near future at the end of this present age.

Now if you are misrepresenting what I have posted, how much of the bible are you also misrepresenting?

Shalom

Bobby Jo · Dec 9, 2019

Jay Ross said:
You are entitled to your opinion as to how you interpret scripture, ...

Yeah, I ain't "@Enoch111", but this is NOT about opinions. It's about TEXT, and you don't want to hear what the LITERAL TEXT SAYS. You want to live in your own little isolated bubble, far from any information which would contradict WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

So live in your little world, but don't be SURPRISED when things happen that GOD tried to forewarn you of:

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;

Good Bye and Good Luck,
Bobby Jo

Jay Ross · Dec 9, 2019

Congratulations Bobby Jo, you have put up some words for people to consider which contains your wisdom of your understanding of some verses in Daniel. 9.

Bobby Jo said:
To All,

There are so many Scriptural and Historical disconnects for the "Classical Interpretation" of Dan. 9, but you wouldn't know it from all the FALSE assertions in this Forum. Consider:

1. Dan. 9:2 specifies "years".

We are agreed.

Bobby Jo said:
2. Dan. 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

Yes you are right that “haš·šā·nîm” is not the simple form as you have put it of the Hebrew Root from which it is generated, “shanah.” Also the Hebrew word used to describe how Daniel came to understand from the book that the period of time that Israel would be in exile in Babylon would be 70 years. The Hebrew word is “bî·nō·ṯî” in Daniel. 9:2 whereas in 1 Kings. 3:9 the Hebrew word is “lə·hā·ḇîn”, in verse 11 it is “hā·ḇîn”, in verse 12 it is “wə·nā·ḇō·wn”, and in verse 21 it is “wā·’eṯ·bō·w·nên” all of which have embedded in these Hebrew words the Hebrew root, H:0995, “biyn” or “bin”.

It seems to me that you are on thin ice with your 2nd point.

Bobby Jo said:
3. Per Young, the Dan. 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of an edict from a man/king, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

You may well be right on this point.

Bobby Jo said:
4. The Dan. 9:25 "seven" is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

The usual translations of verse 25 is: -

"Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Which suggest that the time duration described in this verse is 69 weeks of years.

Bobby Jo said:
5. The Dan. 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

It seems to me that you are focusing on Daniel 9:26a in this point only and is independent of verse 25.

Bobby Jo said:
6. The "weeks" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

Not sure what your point is here.

Bobby Jo said:
7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

I would agree with this point.

Bobby Jo said:
8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

There is a need for further information to be able to understand the point you are making.

Bobby Jo said:
9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gap.

You are right, there is no 2,000 years gap inserted between verse 26 and verse 27, the gap is closer to 3,000 years.

Bobby Jo said:
10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.

This statement with no scriptures to substantiate it, is a bold claim. Scriptural evidence to support your assertion is required before it would be accepted by others.

Bobby Jo said:
... and of course there are other aspects which must be included, but these are basic aspects which any student of Prophecy should be aware of, but seldom are ...

Bobby Jo

As usual you have a barb in your post to finish off with. Are you so discerning of the word that only you have the wisdom of Solomon to understand what has been recorded?

Shalom

Beware of Men's Endless Charts & Lists

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads