What I believe about the Atonement

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
You have flat said you are talking about a certificate of debt.

Try to hang in there David - we are not talking about the same thing.

You are talking about a sin debt owed to God under Penal Substitution Theory. I am talking about the charges against us under the decrees of the law in context of Colossians 2:13-15.

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

Steve Owen said:
Revelation 5:9. 'You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for you were slain, and have redeemed [NIV. 'purchased'] us to God by Your blood......'
To redeem or purchase anything there is always a price.

Amen!

And the price of our redemption is the precious blood of Christ. We were purchased by His blood.

It is a mistake to believe we were in bondage to God and Jesus purchased us from His Father as Scripture tells us we were in bondage to the power of sin and death.

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Try to hang in there David - we are not talking about the same thing.

You are talking about a sin debt owed to God under Penal Substitution Theory. I am talking about the charges against us under the decrees of the law in context of Colossians 2:13-15.

I'm talking about the sin debt owed to God because of His laws in the context of Colossians 2:13-15.

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Amen!

And the price of our redemption is the precious blood of Christ. We were purchased by His blood.

It is a mistake to believe we were in bondage to God and Jesus purchased us from His Father as Scripture tells us we were in bondage to the power of sin and death.

Yes, to cover the DEBT of sin.

Steve Owen · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Amen!

And the price of our redemption is the precious blood of Christ. We were purchased by His blood.

It is a mistake to believe we were in bondage to God and Jesus purchased us from His Father as Scripture tells us we were in bondage to the power of sin and death.

We were given by God to the Lord Jesus to redeem (John 6:39 etc.). Now if God gave us to Christ, why would He need to pay a price?
Something for you to think about while I go to bed.

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

Steve Owen said:
We were given by God to the Lord Jesus to redeem (John 6:39 etc.). Now if God gave us to Christ, why would He need to pay a price?
Something for you to think about while I go to bed.

I know you have been popping in and out but I already said why I believe Christ had to pay a price, Steve. This is not in question (although we do hold different views).

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I know you have been popping in and out but I already said why I believe Christ had to pay a price, Steve. This is not in question (although we do hold different views).

But why was there a price to be paid? You have already answered this from Col. 2, because we had a debt due for our sin.

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
But why was there a price to be paid? You have already answered this from Col. 2, because we had a debt due for our sin.

Hebrews 5:1-10
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "You ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"; just as He says also in another passage, "You ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO the ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Hebrews 5:1-10
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "You ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"; just as He says also in another passage, "You ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO the ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

And how do you see this answering my question?

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
And how do you see this answering my question?

How do you not?

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
How do you not?

John,

I'm trying to have honest conversation here. Why not just answer my question?

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
John,

I'm trying to have honest conversation here. Why not just answer my question?

I am having an honest conversation. I do not know what else to say David. Do you really not see the price Christ paid to redeem us and cancel out the accusations against us in that passage?

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I am having an honest conversation. I do not know what else to say David. Do you really not see the price Christ paid to redeem us and cancel out the accusations against us in that passage?

Remember my question was why was there a price to be paid? According to Col 2. it was due to our debt due because of sin. This is more than an accusation. It is a legal debt owed.

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
According to Col 2. it was due to our debt due because of sin. This is more than an accusation. It is a legal debt owed.

No, that is not true.

Colossians 2:8-15 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

The passage does not speak of a debt that is due because of sin, but rather Christ canceling out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us - taking it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

You assume that Christ paid a legal debt owed due to our sins. But this is an assumption (it is you reading your theories into the text).

Instead I believe that we have been buried with Christ in baptism and raised up with Him through faith. We were dead in our sins, but He made us alive together with Him, having canceled out this certificate of debt.

I no longer share in your presuppositions. That is the difference and why we view this passage (and probably any passage dealing with the gospel of Jesus Christ) differently. I do not think anything needs to be added.

CharismaticLady · Dec 11, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Classic is for Coke. But not the one to get high on.
View attachment 8029

Coke changed their product, but when there was an outcry against it they started talking about *Coke Classic*. The same thing with false doctrines. Now we have "classic" doctrines versus the truth.

Hey Enoch, didn't the first Coke have cocaine in it? I doubt if Coke Classic has it. Maybe they substituted caffeine for it.

Same goes for doctrine. Jesus took away our sin, but that was too strong for some to handle, so they substituted a more easy to swallow version of cover our sin while we keep committing it. Same with being dead to sin and not in the flesh but in the Spirit. No, they can't relate so switch to we will always be sinners, and we will always be in the flesh, relating to 1 John 1:8 and the struggle of Romans 7. No wonder people have a form of godliness, but deny its power. Preferring imputed righteousness over actual righteousness.

CharismaticLady · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Look again. While my view is certainly dependent on Scripture it is also my explanation of Sripture (what I believe those passages mean) .

If it is not enough theory for you and @Enoch111 then you have both my apology and a demonstration of where we disagree.

What part of my view do you not understand?

Hi John, I'm just starting reading this and it is already 6 pages long. Why don't you just edit into post 1 the scriptures that relate to your commentary to satisfy Steven?

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Hi John, I'm just starting reading this and it is already 6 pages long. Why don't you just edit into post 1 the scriptures that relate to your commentary to satisfy Steven?

@Steve Owen 's criticism was that the OP was too much Scripture and not enough commentary (not enough explanation).

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
The passage does not speak of a debt that is due because of sin, but rather Christ canceling out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us - taking it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

This is why I asked, and you kind of beat around the subject, what are these decrees against us?

John Caldwell said:
I do not think anything needs to be added.

You assume I am adding something.

John Caldwell · Dec 11, 2019

David Taylor said:
This is why I asked, and you kind of beat around the subject, what are these decrees against us?

You assume I am adding something.

Sorry, I thought we were on the same page there.

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

reformed1689 · Dec 11, 2019

John Caldwell said:
Sorry, I thought we were on the same page there.

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Ok and so here is the root of my confusion with your view. Sometimes you talk about debt, sometimes you talk about the law, sometimes you talk about death, sometimes you refer to it as a penalty. It seems as though you change which part of that (I believe it is all of the above) you focus on based on which is more advantageous to your argument at the time. I think this is why I (and others) have a hard time understanding what you actually believe and why, in my opinion, you seem all over the place with your theology.

What I believe about the Atonement

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads