What I believe about the Atonement

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John Caldwell

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i'm curious how you might incorporate
No Son of Man may die for another; the soul that sins shall die
into that perspective, JC, ty
I believe the context of the passage is punishment for sin (one man dying instead of another). Christ did not die instead of us dying. Instead Christ shared in our infirmity and became a curse for us (suffered under the bondage of sin and death and shattered its bonds on us).
 

bbyrd009

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I believe the context of the passage is punishment for sin (one man dying instead of another). Christ did not die instead of us dying. Instead Christ shared in our infirmity and became a curse for us (suffered under the bondage of sin and death and shattered its bonds on us).
sounds pretty Byzantine bro, no offense. What may i ask was Yah's role, if any in that, do you think? "Became a curse for us" in whose perspective, iow? ty
i tink you bout to get tied up bro lol, but go 'head
 

bbyrd009

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don' get me wrong, ok guys; many believe as you do, although i confess i'm not quite sure what distiction y'all discussin dere. Nuttin' wrong with beliefs k, or changing em either fellows, yah? The kings are coming now, ok, dey are already here, showing up, as we speak. Jesus did not die for our sins, an you don kill that cow soon you gone be in tidal wave ok bros. Aight have a blessed dayIMG_0066.JPG
the mighty Euphrates River; a real pitcher, not Some Guy's opinion k
 
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John Caldwell

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sounds pretty Byzantine bro, no offense. What may i ask was Yah's role, if any in that, do you think? "Became a curse for us" in whose perspective, iow? ty
i tink you bout to get tied up bro lol, but go 'head
No offense taken.

I believe this applies:

Galatians 3:11-14
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “ THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH .” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, "Cursed IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON a TREE"- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come w to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I view Christ submitting to the same bondage that enslaved us. Christ fulfilled the law (the purpose of the law and the prophets was to testify of Him), but I believe Christ was also justified by faith and did nothing of His own accord but did all in submission to the Father (I know, a lot like moral influence :)
).
 

Steve Owen

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I only read yours and the first responses. I doubt I will get involved as what I see is just arguing over semantics, making both parties right about the atonement.
I do not believe the debate is about semantics and nor, I imagine, does @John Caldwell. Otherwise we would both have given up on it by now. The reason I see this discussion as important is that unless the Lord Jesus Christ has taken your sins and mine upon Himself and paid the penalty for them in full, we shall have to pay that penalty in full ourselves.
But there was one question I would have for them. I'm curious if I'll get an answer.

If you believe what you wrote, quoting Scriptures or not, what's not to agree with? I agree with all of it,
I agree with all the Scriptures as well. The problem is that John does not believe that they mean what I believe they mean.
but there was one part I wonder if they will agree with.

You said: He made our sins His own and freed us from the bondage of sin and death that has held mankind in slavery by defeating the powers of evil.

Or if they will think it a lie to not call themselves a "sinner." How many of them will agree that Jesus took away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. Or if they will instead say they are sinners and only have imputed righteousness, not actual righteousness, and that the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin, while it remains underneath His covering.

Let's see:
cc: @Steve Owen; @David Taylor; @Enoch111
We are absolutely free from the bondage of sin, but that does not make us sinless. We are no longer slaves to sin, but there remains in all of us a relic of sin, which keeps pulling us back. This 'relic' is not in us, but in our 'flesh' (Romans 7:18; Galatians 5:16-17), our 'members' or our 'mortal bodies' (Romans 6:12-13; 7:22-23) and we have constantly to be resisting it and putting it to death (Colossians 3:5) walking in the Spirit and not grieving Him or quenching Him with our petty sins or worldliness, all of which is a life-long battle. 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us,' but 'if anyone [that is, any Christian] sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.'

If you want to discuss this further, please start a new thread and quote this post. Otherwise this thread will end up being hi-jacked.
 

reformed1689

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who told you that you were naked?

is not being understood nor honored here imo. I mean neither one of you have actually come right out and accused Yah of needing a sacrifice to make us acceptable to He on this page, but neither am i noting Caiaphas anywhere?
If i forgive your debt on a loan, that does not make the debt go away, m. taylor?
I have no idea what you are trying to argue here.
 

John Caldwell

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I do not believe the debate is about semantics and nor, I imagine, does @John Caldwell.
I agree. These are two very different ways of understanding the work of Christ and they have been debated for centuries.

I guess the reason it is more of a "hot topic" now is the debate is fairly common in areas where it once was not (in the US anyway).

Both views (along with others) reside within orthodox Christianity but I do not see that one can be completely correct without the other being incorrect.
 

reformed1689

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I hold the Ransom Theory in the context of the early church, not the expression that that Satan was paid but that we were freed from the bondage of sin.

As you know (having studied the topic yourself) the Ransom Theory was expressed in several forms (a Ransom paid to Satan, to death, and simply paid).

I do believe we were ransomed by the blood of Christ. We will never agree on this point. All I can do is tell you what I believe.
Having studied the topic myself, I know Ransom Theory does come from the early church, particularly the Father Origen, and is absolutely tied to paying a ransom to Satan.
 
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reformed1689

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This is my point. You do not understand the answers other views provide.
Of course you can't actually claim that. I do understand the answers. They aren't adequate because they fail to adequately answer the question in light of the whole of Scripture. That's not me not understanding, that is me saying it isn't biblical.
 

John Caldwell

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Having studied the topic myself, I know Ransom Theory does come from the early church, particularly the Father Origen, and is absolutely tied to paying a ransom to Satan.
Yes. Origen did use that language (and as you know Gregory argued this was the "powers" of sin and death rather than actually a payment to Satan). I am glad you are not unstudied but at the same time do not know why you like presenting opposing ideas in a partial way.
 

John Caldwell

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Of course you can't actually claim that. I do understand the answers. They aren't adequate because they fail to adequately answer the question in light of the whole of Scripture. That's not me not understanding, that is me saying it isn't biblical.
I can claim that because all of the theories adequately answer the question of Christ's death (they just do not entertain the context provided by opposing theories).

Until you are able to grasp how the classic view answers the questions of the Atonement in its own contest you have no basis for rejecting the view.
 

Grams

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Eph:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

reformed1689

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I can claim that because all of the theories adequately answer the question of Christ's death (they just do not entertain the context provided by opposing theories).

Until you are able to grasp how the classic view answers the questions of the Atonement in its own contest you have no basis for rejecting the view.
Yes, answer the question of Christ's death in their own context, but only one examines the full counsel of Scripture.
 

reformed1689

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Yes. Origen did use that language (and as you know Gregory argued this was the "powers" of sin and death rather than actually a payment to Satan). I am glad you are not unstudied but at the same time do not know why you like presenting opposing ideas in a partial way.
Are you referring to Gregory of Nyssa or Gregory the Theologian?